Pakistan vs England, 1st Test - Dubai

First topic message reminder :

Early start for this one tomorrow. I hope to catch half hour of play before I head to work.

Bat first is the key on these pitches I feel.

Anyway, thought I'd create the match discussion thread now so that it is there when we wake up. England are playing Test cricket again, I'm going to bed feeling like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Looking forward to the Test and the discussion.

I wonder what the odds are for Pakistan to lose the match from here. They could each make an awful lot of money ....

Hi All.

Eng back to their old nonsense.

Looks like they've been played off the park.

A friend of mine who's been shouting that eng are over-rated crap and pak far superior is rubbing it in big time. This was bound to happen after i argued they were a good side now.

Let down by england again. 41 years of it, really should be used to it.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Hi All.

Eng back to their old nonsense.

Looks like they've been played off the park.

A friend of mine who's been shouting that eng are over-rated crap and pak far superior is rubbing it in big time. This was bound to happen after i argued they were a good side now.

Let down by england again. 41 years of it, really should be used to it.

They haven't lost yet.

Maybe England will bounce back in the second test. It will be a good test of their ability to adapt and their resilience.

OK next test knee jerk reaction changes?

Pannesar in for Tremlett.
Bopara for Anderson.
If hes fit Bresnan for Broad.
Davies to open in place of the woeful Strauss.
3 spinners (Swann, Pantesar, KP), 2 medium pacers (Trott Bopara), 1 pace bowler (Brensnan)

Getting rid of Anderson who cant bat or bowl usefuly here, Tremlett ditto, Strauss whos been awful for 2 years, Bell who is genuinly scared by the non turn Pakistand bowlers are getting, Broad just so we can get Bresnan in the side. Increases the slow bowling options, and deepends the batting considerbaly. Morgan retains his place due to being the best player of spin in the England side.

Hmmmmm

England might still be able to make Pakistan bat again.

biltongbek wrote:England might still be able to make Pakistan bat again.

Well assuming we dont get negative runs from penalties batting first in the next test they wuill have to bat again this series for sure

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK next test knee jerk reaction changes?

Pannesar in for Tremlett.
Bopara for Anderson.
If hes fit Bresnan for Broad.
Davies to open in place of the woeful Strauss.
3 spinners (Swann, Pantesar, KP), 2 medium pacers (Trott Bopara), 1 pace bowler (Brensnan)

Getting rid of Anderson who cant bat or bowl usefuly here, Tremlett ditto, Strauss whos been awful for 2 years, Bell who is genuinly scared by the non turn Pakistand bowlers are getting, Broad just so we can get Bresnan in the side. Increases the slow bowling options, and deepends the batting considerbaly. Morgan retains his place due to being the best player of spin in the England side.

Hmmmmm

you can't just willy nilly make changes. anderson has been one of your best bowlers over the last two years. Bell has been your best batsman with Cook, so once again, they will get used to conditions.

Swanns got his second 10 of the match, a genuine all rounder.

Huzzah!

Maybe Englands tail will wag.

I was prepared to turn a leaf and be nice to KP this year.... and then he fails 4 innings in a row.... god its hard!

100 up... 7 down. Broad hundred and we stand a chance...

Regardless of Kneejerk or not:

Morgan has to go, he is not a test player and having him at 6 helps no one

Panesar must play, as must Finn

Swann got 34 in the first innings.

Gregers wrote:Morgan has to go, he is not a test player and having him at 6 helps no one

But he averages 160 against spin?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Swanns got his second 10 of the match, a genuine all rounder.

Huzzah!

Broad joins him , England stunning Pakistn with another double 10 partnership.

biltongbek wrote:

Gregers wrote:Morgan has to go, he is not a test player and having him at 6 helps no one

But he averages 160 against spin?

Not anymore!

It doesn't matter what he averages, he is not (in my opinion) a test player in any shape or form.

I would even prefer Bopara at 6 in tests (due to adding an option with the ball)!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Gregers wrote:Morgan has to go, he is not a test player and having him at 6 helps no one

But he averages 160 against spin?

Not anymore!

Yeah that probably halved after this match.

Joking aside Greggeres England will be faced with a tough choice about what changes are possible and advised.

They didnt use Bopara at all in the warm ups, does that suggest they
A rate him
B see him as a viable option
C that he would be anymore liekly to adapt to the conditions than players who have batted 6 times out here now


However if they want to stick with 4 bowlers and not lengthen the tail, but they do want Panessar in Bopara really needs to be included unless they think 3 wicket Trott is sufficent backup Broad/Anderson.

If they go 5 bowlers Morgans the obvious one to get kicked out, but that leaves a heck of a tail ...even if Bresnans fit. Its also a tough choice knowing that he has more potential on these pitches than Bell does.

Strauss seems just as much out of his depth these days. Hes avergaed less than Morgan has since Morgans debut. Theres no realistic way hed get dropped (given the make up of the squad ) even if he wanst captain, the fact he is garuntees his place. In fantasy world could you force Trott up or Stcik Davies in? Hmm not really.

Finn wild dangerous and unpredictable. Dont see how you make room for him in the side unless the balance is kept as it is just him straight rpelacing Tremlett. That wouldnt really do much IMO or address any of the issue England have.

Any plan for changes has wide holes in it, hence my previous silly post on the subject.

Swann races up to another stunning double ten, Pakistan bowlers on the ropes form this partnership. Tough to see how Pakistan will win by more than an innings here.

There goes Broad.
11 runs still needed for victory.
Nail-biting time.

Tremlett gone, Anderson avoids the hat-trick.

And Tremlett follows within two minutes......

I'd be tempted to stick Panesar in, but can't decide who to leave out. Take out Morgan, and it's Prior at 6 and Broad at 7 - longish tail perhaps?

Interesting to note on this very flat wicket , that was the 5th biggest partnership of the match .

The Pakistan opening stand off 114 , exactly twice as high as the second one , was perhaps the single biggest factor in this overwhelming result , for all Ajmal's success and England's inept batting...

Phew ! At least we didn't go out with a hat trick

BuLioli wrote:And Tremlett follows within two minutes......

I'd be tempted to stick Panesar in, but can't decide who to leave out. Take out Morgan, and it's Prior at 6 and Broad at 7 - longish tail perhaps?

Bopara for Morgan. Panesar for Tremlett.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

BuLioli wrote:And Tremlett follows within two minutes......

I'd be tempted to stick Panesar in, but can't decide who to leave out. Take out Morgan, and it's Prior at 6 and Broad at 7 - longish tail perhaps?

Bopara for Morgan. Panesar for Tremlett.

Eeehhhhh........I'm still not convinced by Bopara for some reason. Hence why I didn't mention him. Still, my attempts at suggesting personnel changes and predicting results have usually been utter rubbish - so I probably wouldn't be any good as a selector!

Seems i cancelled sky sports at exactly the right time

I was fed up paying premium rates to pay footballers, as i can't stand the sport. Happy to just follow this on the radio when we're not rubbish.

so, will this be the shortest ever reign as number one test team?

Quite. Its a bit odd to stick in a batsman who hasnt played at all out here if the accusation is that the teams unprepared and unused to conditions.

However if Panessars in a 4 man attack ( and not repalcing Swann) then I cant see how Bopara can be left out.


Theres no right answer.

I wouldn't pick Panesar. Swann didn't exactly run through them and it's Gul who did the damage this innings. It's mostly England's inept batting which has lost the match, don't see how picking Panesar will help with that.

I'd bring in Finn for Tremlett who didn't look dangerous to me, but that's it. Tell the batsmen "you got us into this mess, you better get us out of it!"

Near enough over so on to the forward planning ? I suppose :

I'm sure they'll be tempted to include Panesar , but it may or may not be a good idea - and quite frankly will make absolutely no difference unless the batsmen get their act together.

I'll be honest , I am not a Monty fan - I think England have looked way better since his exit , using Swann and the (various) three quicks ; but in fairness I've hardly seen him bowl in the last couple of years and many people think he has improved. Certainly he took wickets against Pakistan in 2006 - though so did Saj
Anyway jokes aside I have no problem with England trying 2 spinners (though surely not at the expense of a batsman?) if they are really convinced conditions demand it , but I would be concerned if they made such a change just as a kneejerk reaction to defeat - and to pacify the media.

Fortunately I don't think Flower does kneejerks. Reckon they'll have a good look at the pitch for the next match , and probably still go with the same side , though it won't astonish me if Monty or Finn come in for Tremlett.

England effectively 1 ahead for 9 down.

We lead!!! Can we bowl the Pakistani's out for 0?

you ask that, my son and his mates bowled the favoured team at the under 9's out for 6 runs last saturday.

Cool, England now accellerating.

Jimmy whacking AJmal for six, I just love tailenders.

In defence of Panessar he got dropped for a run similar to the one Swanns gone through the last year or so. Although hes not had helpful consditions and played against a lot of sides adept at playing spin hes really not been at his best ( personal issues perhaps affecting him? )
Panessar must have been disaapointed to miss out, although in many peoples eyes he was borderline to make the tour in the first place and it was just one game against non opposition.
Swanns runs although a secondary consideration shouldnt be overlooked completley too.

Yes its the case in this game taht sema and spin are pretty equal in the damage they have done. But if Panessar is a lot more threatening than Tremellet its a risk worth taking, its hard to go from this without a shake up.

The batting though is the real problem, but England are despertaly short of options there. Noone demands a slot.

Its a pity for England they dont have a mid series tour game to try out plan B.

Well the innings defeat is avoided at least

Hey Trebell - nice to see you on board but we really needed your special skills about two days ago ...do make sure you're back on duty next week

Jimmy collects a six ! At least we are going down swinging ...

Bopara has become a much better player since he's been out of the side.

Of course, this test has clearly shown that England have started the long downhill slide. It's time to get rid of the deadwood: Strauss cannot buy a run anymore, Pietersen has shown he's not up for the challenge, Bell can only score runs against poor sides, Morgan's not good enough for test cricket. Swann's past it and Tremlett won't do anything on these flat pitches.

Time to bring in the youth. Hales for Strauss, Bopara, Taylor and Buttler should be given a chance, Borthwick or Panesar for Swann and Woakes in for Tremlett.

Or alternatively don't just ignore this is one bad test after a very good couple of years, regroup, trust the same side possibly modulo Finn for Tremlett, and bounce back like England have on a few occasions already.

As you may have guessed, I'm not really into knee-jerk reactions.

England have been poor, Pakistan have been excellent. End of.

It's interesting that Ajmal seems to really not like going for runs. As soon as England have played a big shot or two off him he's immediately dropped a few fielders back. Seems to me England need to maybe get after him early on and then just milk him around.

Swann gone now.

Currently, Anderson has outscored 4 of our top 6 in terms of runs.

That's never a good sign!

Well, that may not be the biggest target Pakistan would have had to face. But at least it is a target.

Mike Selig wrote:Of course, this test has clearly shown that England have started the long downhill slide. It's time to get rid of the deadwood: Strauss cannot buy a run anymore, Pietersen has shown he's not up for the challenge, Bell can only score runs against poor sides, Morgan's not good enough for test cricket. Swann's past it and Tremlett won't do anything on these flat pitches.

Well mate, I hope that is still the case when we tour England later in the year.

Mike Selig wrote:Bopara has become a much better player since he's been out of the side.

Of course, this test has clearly shown that England have started the long downhill slide. It's time to get rid of the deadwood: Strauss cannot buy a run anymore, Pietersen has shown he's not up for the challenge, Bell can only score runs against poor sides, Morgan's not good enough for test cricket. Swann's past it and Tremlett won't do anything on these flat pitches.

Time to bring in the youth. Hales for Strauss, Bopara, Taylor and Buttler should be given a chance, Borthwick or Panesar for Swann and Woakes in for Tremlett.

Or alternatively don't just ignore this is one bad test after a very good couple of years, regroup, trust the same side possibly modulo Finn for Tremlett, and bounce back like England have on a few occasions already.

As you may have guessed, I'm not really into knee-jerk reactions.

England have been poor, Pakistan have been excellent. End of.

Similar post to the one I made earlier. Its the case though that everyones expecting Inidia to make these same knee jerk changes ( finaly) and critisizing them for not doing it sooner. There has to come a time when players are shuffled out, getting that right requires an element of luck I guess.
I certainly feel its not wrong to start questioning Strauss after this series. Vaughn hung around like a bad smell for a long time when he was shot by virtue of being Captain marvellous. I dont want to see that again for a guy who averages 40 in his career and 30 in the last couple of years.

Of course he may well go and bang 4 centuries and become the new Alistrair Cook. He aint getting dropped in this series thats for sure.

Mike Selig wrote:Bopara has become a much better player since he's been out of the side.

Morgan hasn't become a much better player since he's been in the team though. And he can't bowl.

alfie wrote:Well the innings defeat is avoided at least

Hey Trebell - nice to see you on board but we really needed your special skills about two days ago ...do make sure you're back on duty next week

Jimmy collects a six ! At least we are going down swinging ...

Nah, pretty much retired Alfie.

Think Mike has summed that up pretty well above...

One defeat - albeit a bad one. If I may be permitted a rather vulgar expression - sh*t happens.

Comparisons with India's situation are frankly ludicrous.

Let us have a look at the Second Test before we start thinking about manning the lifeboats , eh?

Certainly warms the heart of this aussie to be 3-0 up against India and see the old enemy down at the same time. I suspect that may only be a temporary condition but ill soak it up while I can.

I doubt England will make any panicked changes just yet. Maybe if they lose the next one, but thats too much for me to expect .......... isnt it?

Retired , Trebs ?

Come on , Rugby board can spare you for a few days surely?

Sense of duty ... Country needs you , etc?

it's england, we have a long history of getting it wrong Slater.

ha, probably not slaters, our batsmen have obviously been taking one too many tips off Monty in the nets!

Yep, trebs you're needec on duty for the 2nd Test after this showing!