Pakistan v England 2nd Test

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England team:
AJ Strauss(c), AN Cook, IJL Trott, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, EJG Morgan, MJ Prior(w), SCJ Broad, GP Swann, JM Anderson, MS Panesar

Pakistan team:
Mohammad Hafeez, Taufeeq Umar, Azhar Ali, Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq(c), Asad Shafiq, Adnan Akmal(w), Abdur Rehman, Umar Gul, Saeed Ajmal, Junaid
Khan


Pakistan won the toss and elected to bat

Biltong - have you got any stats our batsmen can take a crumb of comfort from?

No stat, but if you go to the assessment Fists put up, I actually have some advice this time round.

Englands batsmen should take no comfort at all from this series and it might be the kick up the backside that they need to focus their minds. No sour grapes from me, the best team won and deservedly so, well done and well fought Pakistan!!

jeas we shagged that up lol- well done pakistan mind- i had a feeling that this team was a million times better than it had shown recently due to the fact many of there past games where fixed.

Well played Pakistan, but I feel England were the better team for most of that game but Pakistan lifted it and exerted pressure when it mattered, which is what England have been doing this past year in winning the big sessions, and it is a great series win for them.

Lots of positives to take out of this game again for England; Broad bowled economically and threatening and is by far England's best seamer in these conditions and it bodes well for tours of SL and India to come. Anderson didn't get the wickets but he did his job of probing with the new ball and picking up crucial wickets at good times. Monty returned to the Test stage with aplomb and showed what you can gain from playing CC for a while. Cook and Trott batted well first innings and showed the necessary technique and resolve to grit it out on these decks which is what is needed to be done.

We all know where we lost this Test match, and I don't need to repeat it again. So changes for the next match? Any, or none? The obvious one is Morgan out, but I think that Flower will give him one last game to prove himself especially now that the series is dead and the fact that the only man they could bring in for him is Bopara doesn't make me keen to see Mogs left out. Do we automatically go with two spinners in the next match, or do we wait and see what the track is like in Dubai first. The only other long shot for a change, would be to give someone like Jimmy a rest and give Finn/Onions a game but I don't think this will happen.

There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be written on the psychology of the batting collapse....

very impressed with monty panesar in this test. he now has 133 test wickets at a decent rate, and was mightily impressive in this game.

he was good in the second innings, very good in fact, but if he cant get success in what were almost perfect conditions for him then you would worry

i still say he was less than impressive in the first innings tho

i really get the impression that because he is a popular player with the fans people overlook his weaknesses and support him focussing on the positives only, whereas someone like pietersen gets slated for every little flaw regardless of all the good things he has done for us

i dont slate KP, i think he gets unnecssary critcism most of the time, and from the same person, constantly and its ridiclous.

however i do agree rich with you, but its good that he took wickets, and he was impressive

Our weakness against quality spin has never really gone away it just only shows up on these subcontinental tours, we definitely need a long term plan to help prepare our future batsmen for these conditions - I suppose the Lions tour to Bangladesh was a good start. Every batsman just looked clueless tentative and scared, I still reckon had they gone after the spinners when they first came in to bowl it would have put them off and made it much easier but everyone just hid away in a little shell and waited to be out. Incredibly frustrating but I don't think anyone can blame the preparation or players taking it easy or underestimating Pakistan - we were on top for 3/4 innings and got completely outdone in the final one.

England can't play spin. Playing spinner like Ajmal in England and in sub continental conditions are two vastly different tasks. Since the tour of India in 2001, Engan have played 18 Tests vs IND, PAK and SL and won only once. That was Bombay 2006. Bangladesh are excluded from these figures.

In addition I've read on many forums/blogs that playing on spinning pitches means you are a flat track bully. Guys like Inzamam, Shewag, Mahela are often downgraded, but these exceptional players of spin are truly special talents.

Further to add to the point of England's woes against spin. I've found figures for Bell, Cook, Pietersen and Strauss playing against PAK, IND and SL in the sub continent.

Cook has played 9 Tests against these 3 sides. 18 innings 691 runs @ 40.64. 2 hundreds and 6 50s.

Strauss has played 9 Tests but only against PAK and IND. 18 innings 601 runs @ 35.35. 3 hundreds and 0 50s

Bell has played 13 Tests against these 3 sides. 26 innings 790 runs @ 31.60. 1 hundred and 6 50s.

Pietersen has played 13 Tests against these 3 sides. 25 innings 709 @ 29.54. 2 hundreds and 2 50s.

Would be more worrying for the English management is the strike-rates of these players fall way below there career strike rates.

Cook's career S/R is 48.67. But falls to 40.86

Strauss' career S/R is 49.39. But falls to 42.38

Bell's career S/R is 52.56. But falls to 43.57.

Pietersen's career S/R is 62.29. But falls to 58.16.

Apart from Pietersen the other 3 get far to bogged down and pressure mounts.

When the stats of Bangladesh are included, these players averages get somewhat boosted. But, I think most will agree that Bangladesh aren't in the same class as PAK, IND and SL.

ive seen a few comments on the internet today, saying that we bottled it..

we didnt..

we just plain and simply messed it up!

Seems we choke in ODI's , you guys choke on flat tracks

The lads could have done a lot worse today than to have a good team talk from captain CF before going out to bat!

my side wouldnt have folded like that

my side listen to skipper CF

BOOM thats how we do it

what a thrashing

is anyone else suprised at how effective Abdur Rehman, has been? i certainly am, i used to think that hee was a very good one day spinner, and that was it, however he is proving to be a solid test match bowler.

He has been very impressive, for sure. Not world class, but he has utilised the ability he has to excellent effect.

Maybe prospered as a result of England worrying a little too much about Ajmal, too?

i didnt say he was world class, but he is a solid test match bowler

hmmm maybe

Fists of Fury wrote:Maybe prospered as a result of England worrying a little too much about Ajmal, too?

Known at Surrey as the Saqlain effect, as I think possibly Guildford mentioned the other day. Batsmen so relieved not to be facing Saqlain that they gave their wicket away to Ian Salisbury bowling at the other end, thereby persuading England selectors that Salisbury would make a decent test leg spinner

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Maybe prospered as a result of England worrying a little too much about Ajmal, too?

Known at Surrey as the Saqlain effect, as I think possibly Guildford mentioned the other day. Batsmen so relieved not to be facing Saqlain that they gave their wicket away to Ian Salisbury bowling at the other end, thereby persuading England selectors that Salisbury would make a decent test leg spinner

The very same, gents. It does make you wonder.

Hi guys, sorry Ive been away for a couple of days...who scored the winning runs? KP got his form back and shut Greggers up?

cricketfan90 wrote:ive seen a few comments on the internet today, saying that we bottled it..

we didnt..

we just plain and simply messed it up!

To be fair when Andy Flowre comes out and says that its not unreasoable that people agree.

England batsmen arent at their best technicaly onm spinning pitches against attacking bowling yes. But if they were that bad in the nets then the coaches probably wouldve quit long ago. Are the Indian batsmen as bad as their performances in England and Aus would suggest? No, they are out of tehir comfort zone in those conditions yes but their technique, footwak and application are all being hit by mental factios which snowball through the team. Englands players got in a mess and played below their ability. They arent that bad.
It does happen to all teams, although the last time I really remeber them foilding like a pancake was the first test in the WIndies 09 tour. They did exactkly the same to Pkaistan when they were over in England, apply the pressur ethen break the resolve of the team who creat their own mental demons and make your bowling even more dangerous than it is.

Are you trying to smash a record for typos in one paragraph?

Fair points though PSW. There is still some of the old England in this team, and it was always going to take a long time to shake the old habits. The bowling unit - and England could field immensely strong ones - have it almost mastered. Batting needs work, obviously.

I think the batting needs looking at. Can Strauss continue to fail? Don't think he's scored a hundred since the last ashes and is averaging around 22 (I could be wrong) and Morgan looks lost.

Two weak batsmen in your team upsets the balance and it's showing.

Morgan is the only change I'd make for now, both short term and long term. Strauss's position will be up for review if we fail in Sri Lanka and then at home this summer too, but until then I'd silence calls for that change.

I'd get James Taylor in for the Windies Tests - we don't want his first Test series to be against Dale Steyn, Philander and Morkel, they could ruin him.

I think Morgan will see the Winter out, and maybe beyond. A couple of good scores will see him in the summer Tests also. England have persisted with players and it has proved correct on quite a few ocassions so far, so I can't see them changing this policy any time soon.

Fists of Fury wrote:

I'd get James Taylor in for the Windies Tests - we don't want his first Test series to be against Dale Steyn, Philander and Morkel, they could ruin him.

I agree with this, although it can lead to people expecting too much (see Bopara for an example). Here's a question though - if Strauss retired after this Winter, who would you put in as our next opener?

Id be dissapointed if they dont take Taylor to Sri Lanka.

Very tough question, carrot, but right now I'd really take a gamble and say to one of our youngsters (Roy, maybe?) go and show us what you can do. We aren't overflowing with genuine candidates that are ready for that role, so putting the onus on a youngster to make it his own would perhaps have to suffice. It could go one of two ways, of course, but what would we have to lose given that Strauss hasn't really scored consistent runs there of late, either?

Yeah I'd go with that too although not Mr. Roy just yet! Possibly Gale/Lyth/Root and just see how they went. Vince at Hampshire is another who could be very good. It's definitely a position that is 'up for grabs' and everyone on the county circuit must do all they can to prove they should be next in line to open the batting.

Lyth had a woeful season last year - maybe expectation was too much for him or he's a one season wonder. Root - too early. Gale - he's an interesting one. His stats don't stand out, but he has a very good temperament and I've a sneaking suspicion he could well thrive at Test level, although he went from captaining the Lions to nowhere to be seen.

the most frightening aspect of strauss being replaced in the team is we end up with tim nice but dim as captain

rich1uk wrote:the most frightening aspect of strauss being replaced in the team is we end up with tim nice but dim as captain

And whats frightening about that is that the England captaincy is generaly a graveyard for England batsmens form.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rich1uk wrote:the most frightening aspect of strauss being replaced in the team is we end up with tim nice but dim as captain

And whats frightening about that is that the England captaincy is generaly a graveyard for England batsmens form.

Give it to monty

ShahenshahG wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rich1uk wrote:the most frightening aspect of strauss being replaced in the team is we end up with tim nice but dim as captain

And whats frightening about that is that the England captaincy is generaly a graveyard for England batsmens form.

Give it to monty

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