Team of round 2

First topic message reminder :

A bit easier since there was only 2 games, but here's my take on the team of round 2:

1 - Gethin Jenkins
Not many standouts here but he had a solid performance and didn't make any mistakes

2 - Ross Ford
Perfect lineout and some good carries

3 - Dan Cole
Tamed the Italian scrums and even got the nudge on some times.

4 - Richie Gray
What more can be said about this colossus? Still only 22 as well.

5 - Tom Palmer
None of the number 5's stood out, so given it to Palmer for a olid lineout performance

6 - Lydiate
Given MOTM after a solid defensive shift

7 - Ross Rennie
Outstanding performance again and is currently the top performing 7 in the tournament IMO. Good in attack, solid in defence, and ripped the ball in the tackle again. Great performance!

8 - Dave Denton
Not as stand out as last week but some absolutely bruising carries and strong in defence. Honourable mention for Ben Morgan

9 - Lee Dickson
Really increased the temp for England when he came on.

10 - Charlie Hodgson
Another charge down try and solid performance

11 - Alex Cuthburt
Made up for North's absence with strong running

12 - Jamie Roberts
Made the gain line with every carry

13 - Owen Farrell
Didn't do much with the ball but kicked his goals well. No one else stood out really.

14 - Lee Halfpenny
My MOTM yesterday with well taken tries and good kicking

15 - Stuart Hogg
Fantastic impact off the bench and some great running from the 19 year old. Got to start now!

Chunky, that is true, altho it helps if teams, as Scotland did, don't vary their attack sufficiently - focusing the point of attack on just one area (out wide or close to ruck or up the middle, etc.) makes it much easier for the defence to re-set

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, that is true, altho it helps if teams, as Scotland did, don't vary their attack sufficiently - focusing the point of attack on just one area (out wide or close to ruck or up the middle, etc.) makes it much easier for the defence to re-set

Sure. But it's not as if Falatau's stats from Sunday are a one off.

In the matches against South Africa, Ireland and France in the world cup, I think he made a combination of 32 tackles and did not miss one.

For an 8. that's quite impressive and I think the way Gatland gets his backrow playing is what teams like Ireland and Scotland should be emulating.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, that is true, altho it helps if teams, as Scotland did, don't vary their attack sufficiently - focusing the point of attack on just one area (out wide or close to ruck or up the middle, etc.) makes it much easier for the defence to re-set

Sure. But it's not as if Falatau's stats from Sunday are a one off.

In the matches against South Africa, Ireland and France in the world cup, I think he made a combination of 32 tackles and did not miss one.

For an 8. that's quite impressive and I think the way Gatland gets his backrow playing is what teams like Ireland and Scotland should be emulating.

Hmm, don't get me wrong, am a big fan of Faletau, but equally am happy with the way that Scotland's backrow is playing at the moment - I think Scotland (and possibly Ireland) use their backrows for ball-carrying duty cos we don't have giant backs that can punch holes on a regular basis like Wales.

Against Scotland, the Welsh backrow carried for 52m, but tackled 47 times successfully (2 missed), whereas Scotland ran for 105m with ball in hand but only completed 23 tackles (4 missed)

Against Ireland, similar story for Wales: 57m run, 29 tackles (4 missed); Scotland against England, again 126m with ball in hand, 25 tackles (0 missed)

Horses for courses?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Against Scotland, the Welsh backrow carried for 52m, but tackled 47 times successfully (2 missed), whereas Scotland ran for 105m with ball in hand but only completed 23 tackles (4 missed)

Against Ireland, similar story for Wales: 57m run, 29 tackles (4 missed); Scotland against England, again 126m with ball in hand, 25 tackles (0 missed)

Horses for courses?

I don't really know what your point is here.

There's no good in running the ball back if you don't do anythign with it and still lose the game.

I don't think either backrow won or lost the game. My point was that it seems to me that Scotland (and Ireland? looking to Irish poster for confirmation here) use their backrows as a ball-carrying threat, with the whole team on total defensive duties, whereas the Welsh backrow is not required nor asked to do as much ball-carrying but is an awesome tackling unit

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I don't think either backrow won or lost the game. My point was that it seems to me that Scotland (and Ireland? looking to Irish poster for confirmation here) use their backrows as a ball-carrying threat, with the whole team on total defensive duties, whereas the Welsh backrow is not required nor asked to do as much ball-carrying but is an awesome tackling unit

I guess you're right. But the whole "the welsh backs are the carriers in the team, the forwards tackle" isn't the whole pitcure The whole team carries. The whole team tackles. Gatland has instilled a very, very good understanding in his squad. Every player knows what every other players duties are all the time.

There are, in my opinion luxury players in both the Scottish and especially the Irish back row.

How would you define a 'luxury' player, Chunky, and what skill sets would you say are missing as a result? (for either Scotland or Ireland)

To be honest, I think Faletau has been playing more like a flanker than an 8. Generally the number 8 will make the hard yards and the big carries, and play a more attacking role, linking up with the backs. I have seen Faletau do this to great effect, and he has a wonderful off-loading game, especially for the Dragons, but this 6 nations he has played very defensively indeed.

I also don't think Ireland/Scotland need to aspire to play like Wales in terms of their backrow. What works for Wales may not work for us or the scots. However with the game-plan Ireland are trying to play now, you may be right. Scotland need some momentum in attack, so Denton is really making a huge difference right now.

Also Chunky, have to apologise! Although you talked some crap in the Ferris tackle thread, I wasn't being fair on your opinions of Earls/Heaslip/whoever. I don't agree at all but I wasn't being fair, and I felt your pain when I was accused of being a WUM and received abuse for my opinion on Lydiate. So yeah sorry

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:How would you define a 'luxury' player, Chunky, and what skill sets would you say are missing as a result? (for either Scotland or Ireland)

I'm thinking Heaslip. This season I have hardly seen one good performance from him. Not many people agree with me. Read into that what you will - but when I compare him to Picamoles, Harinordiquoy, Read, Falatau - he is not in the same league when it comes to work rate, chucking your body on the line and being a nusiance to the other team.

He just stands in the backline waiting for the glamour pass. He'll do a bit of groundwork but nowhere near enough needed. This is fine if you have the upper hand in a game. Leinster often do as they are so strong all round the park. But for Ireland - Ferris and O'Brien need to be complimented by so much more. I'd play:

6 Ferris
7. ANO
8 Sean O'brien

all day long.

Other luxury players in the same mould - Pierre Spies and Ryan Kankowski,Thomas Waldrom, Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Sebastian Chabal.

I must admit I've only seen Denton play 1 and a half games at test level so it's probably unfair to judge yet. Maybe luxury player is harsh on him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also Chunky, have to apologise! Although you talked some crap in the Ferris tackle thread, I wasn't being fair on your opinions of Earls/Heaslip/whoever. I don't agree at all but I wasn't being fair, and I felt your pain when I was accused of being a WUM and received abuse for my opinion on Lydiate. So yeah sorry

No probs. It's all just opinions.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:How would you define a 'luxury' player, Chunky, and what skill sets would you say are missing as a result? (for either Scotland or Ireland)

I'm thinking Heaslip. This season I have hardly seen one good performance from him. Not many people agree with me. Read into that what you will - but when I compare him to Picamoles, Harinordiquoy, Read, Falatau - he is not in the same league when it comes to work rate, chucking your body on the line and being a nusiance to the other team.

He just stands in the backline waiting for the glamour pass. He'll do a bit of groundwork but nowhere near enough needed. This is fine if you have the upper hand in a game. Leinster often do as they are so strong all round the park. But for Ireland - Ferris and O'Brien need to be complimented by so much more. I'd play:

6 Ferris
7. ANO
8 Sean O'brien

all day long.

Other luxury players in the same mould - Pierre Spies and Ryan Kankowski,Thomas Waldrom, Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Sebastian Chabal.

I must admit I've only seen Denton play 1 and a half games at test level so it's probably unfair to judge yet. Maybe luxury player is harsh on him.

Right, I get you. I do think Denton is a 'luxury' player for Scotland, but in the sense that he is just what we need and so far has been playing out of his skin, rather than your 'surplus to requirements' sense of the word, or an extra that would be nice to have but is not particularly valuable Heaslip seemed a little out of sorts last season, but I thought he looked better against Wales, but that's only one game

Against Wales, Heaslip shown some of his older form. He had a huge work-rate and carried well. Was joint best back row on that day for me along with Ryan Jones and SOB.

Also Denton is an integral piece of this new Scottish side I feel. As is Rennie, Gray and Hogg.

Lydiate, Faletau and Warburton work well as a unit and are complimentary - that's what stood Wales in such good stead in the WC.

That said, in a Lions set up, Faletau is perhaps the least likely to be in the starting XV in his position (there's more of an argument for Lydiate over Ferris and even then I think most people would choose Ferris). No way I would have him over a fit Heaslip and despite your (with respect) slightly strange and rather bespoke wish list for an international 8 Chunky, at almost a year younger than Toby, Denton at least matches the engine and skill set of his Welsh colleague.

And to call Denton a "luxury" player having watched him twice is ridiculous. I've watched a good 80% of the professional games he's ever played and that's nonsense.

We should probably put the number 8 debate on hold until the end of the tournament. Promising sign from Ben Morgan against Italy I thought. Lancaster will have to pick him for the remaining three games and I can see him also making a big impact, certainly as a ball carrier.

At the moment I'd pick Heaslip were I selecting the Lions, and I'd take Falatau for the dirt track, but plenty time before then. It's true that Heaslip isn't hugely consistent. When at the top of his game he's the pick of the bunch, but he's not always all there. As an example he had a very quiet game in the Lions 1st Test last time round, then roared back in the 2nd Test. Not sure I've seen Falatau have a bad game for Wales yet, and Denton has a pretty strong 2 from 2 so far.

Couple of points....

Watch the Wales match again on iplayer and follow Jenkins - you pick him everytime.

Denton is all arms and legs and against a backrow with no 7 - where was he 5 yards out? Your flyhalf had to score on his behalf. Where was he off the back of the scrums for the try? C'mon mun.

Ben Morgan would be my 8

1 Jenkins
2 heartily - if he stops standing up
3 jones
4 anyone
5 hmm
6 lydiate
7 English guy
8 Morgan
9 Dixon
10 priestland
11 city err
12 Roberts
13 Davies
14 half penny
15 foden