Something which appears to have gone unnoticed...

First topic message reminder :

...in this weekend's fracas is the claim made by David Haye to the K Bros camp that he did in fact agree to all terms set by them and that they had reneged on a deal for him to fight Vitali. Adam Booth's comments at the end of some video footage directed at Boente would appear to suggest that there may be some validity in Haye's claim.

Could it be that the myth of the K's being honourable and a "class act" turn out to be nothing more than a carefully crafted deception?

First of all, I think the whole 'Haye bottled/glassed him' story is unfair. Yes, he had a bottle in his hand (I'd imagine this was because he was having a drink rather than because he intended to attack someone). But, to me, it looks clear that he punches Chisora with a closed fist around the bottle rather than actually swinging the bottle at him. This was his gut boxers reaction to being directly threatened by a man with previous history of doing pretty nutty and violent things to other people. Obviously it's not great that Haye was at the press conference to deliberately noise people up, but this is pretty far from physically challenging anyone. We've come to expect circus-like promotion from Haye, but to label him a user of weapons is a touch unfair as far as I can see. The tripod swinging thing is worse. This was dangerous. But, it is difficult to tell how you will react when threatened - particularly when your adversary - in this case Chisora - was swinging a bottle of his own at this point (and this was being swung as a weapon).

As for the OP, I don't see how anyone can doubt the fact that the K-bros screw opponents down in contract negotiations. Isn't this well documented? Aside from the pay opponents receive, numerous people have talked about how they like to dictate every aspect of the fight (even things like entrance music, etc). So, no, they are not as squeaky clean and as 'fair' as they portray. But, this sort of situation is often what happens when one party in contract negotiations is in such a significantly more powerful position than the other. It's the same with any business negotiation. The Klitschko's have dominated for so long that they probably feel their opponents don't deserve better contracts. In recent memory only Haye had any real bargaining power over them. This was because of a combination of Haye's mouth/promotion abilities, and the fact that he hadn't been beaten for ages/dominated at CW, and could still perpetuate the illusion that he could be a challenge. A few of us even fell for that illusion, but now that it's disappeared, Haye has very little power over negotiations (other than 'you can't knock me out') - and he'll go back to being screwed down again. Funnily enough, as many others have pointed out this 'brawl' will probably give both Chisora and Haye a touch more leverage in terms of getting big fights, because like it or not it sparks interest (I mean, people are more interested in Haye and Chisora than, say, Eddie Chambers - who would get, and deserve, pennies for fighting another K-bro).

So, yes, the K-bros are very tough on their opponents in negotiations, and this is rightfully frustrating to people like Adam Booth - especially when he must keep hearing about what nice guys they are. But, their negotiating power is just a reflection of their dominance. It's up to challengers to make us fans believe that they have a genuine chance of winning (or at least of forcing an entertaining fight). Haye did this once with his mouth, but his performance was such a joke that he doesn't deserve a fair contract next time. He doesn't even deserve a title shot. That's when you come back to the 'who else is there?' argument. The promoters have to look for any angle to make a K-bro fight look like a challenge, but clearly the brothers know that no one in the current crop truely deserves a shot. No wonder they don't want to pay them well.

Dave's and Boxtthis post pretty much sum this up for me.

DAVE667 wrote:

Strongback wrote:One thing that hasn't gone unnoticed Dave is the continuance of your ridiculous Haye nuthuggery.

Not really Strongy, cast your mind back and you'll see I criticised Haye for his non-showing against Wlad, I've also been one of the many who believe that his best route to getting people's support for another crack at the HW title is to go out and fight a couple of top ten contenders and show he's made any necessary adjustmenst to suggest things MAY be different next time round. I've also said that the weekend's antics show neither fighter in a good light. Haye hitting Chisora whilst holding a bottle is totally unnacceptable, hurling tripods around...ditto. I can't and won't excuuse Haye's behaviour once he was confronted by Chisora, however...

I do believe Haye had a right to pose the question to VK's manager. Namely, if all terms had been agreed back in December why had they reneged on a fight that Vitali claims to want so badly? Financially, Haye brings nothing to the table but then, outside of Wladimir, neither does anyone else, so why the delay? I doubt Vitali 'fears' Haye so my belief is that they are simply giving him the runaround due to his antics last year. Now, they're quite within their rights to do so and, under the circumstances, who here can say they'd be inclined to accomodate Haye either? However, my original question asks whether or not the Team K Bros "nice guy" image is genuine or a carefully crafted act. A number of posters have argued back and forth about who tells the most lies etc etc and it seems obvious that both sides are as bad as one another. Chisora's theme music is bannned for not being "serious enough" yet Jean Marc Mormeck's HW credentials AREN'T an afront to boxing!!?!?!?

Nothing wrong with Boente saying Haye will have to earn his shot but to say he hasn't agreed terms when Haye is adamant that he has, suggest there's more skullduggery going on here than people think. Irrespective of what you think of Adam Booth he's always been open with the media as to what dealings he's had with the K's. He previously mentioned the number of concessions made to Wlad in order to secure the fight last year so why would he suddenly become a liar when discussing a fight with Vitali. His comments to Boente suggest there's a large portion of truth in Haye's claims.

No nuthuggery involved dear fellow, just a genuine question which seems to have bypassed a lot of people due to the fracas.

Boxtthis wrote:First of all, I think the whole 'Haye bottled/glassed him' story is unfair. Yes, he had a bottle in his hand (I'd imagine this was because he was having a drink rather than because he intended to attack someone). But, to me, it looks clear that he punches Chisora with a closed fist around the bottle rather than actually swinging the bottle at him. This was his gut boxers reaction to being directly threatened by a man with previous history of doing pretty nutty and violent things to other people. Obviously it's not great that Haye was at the press conference to deliberately noise people up, but this is pretty far from physically challenging anyone. We've come to expect circus-like promotion from Haye, but to label him a user of weapons is a touch unfair as far as I can see. The tripod swinging thing is worse. This was dangerous. But, it is difficult to tell how you will react when threatened - particularly when your adversary - in this case Chisora - was swinging a bottle of his own at this point (and this was being swung as a weapon).

As for the OP, I don't see how anyone can doubt the fact that the K-bros screw opponents down in contract negotiations. Isn't this well documented? Aside from the pay opponents receive, numerous people have talked about how they like to dictate every aspect of the fight (even things like entrance music, etc). So, no, they are not as squeaky clean and as 'fair' as they portray. But, this sort of situation is often what happens when one party in contract negotiations is in such a significantly more powerful position than the other. It's the same with any business negotiation. The Klitschko's have dominated for so long that they probably feel their opponents don't deserve better contracts. In recent memory only Haye had any real bargaining power over them. This was because of a combination of Haye's mouth/promotion abilities, and the fact that he hadn't been beaten for ages/dominated at CW, and could still perpetuate the illusion that he could be a challenge. A few of us even fell for that illusion, but now that it's disappeared, Haye has very little power over negotiations (other than 'you can't knock me out') - and he'll go back to being screwed down again. Funnily enough, as many others have pointed out this 'brawl' will probably give both Chisora and Haye a touch more leverage in terms of getting big fights, because like it or not it sparks interest (I mean, people are more interested in Haye and Chisora than, say, Eddie Chambers - who would get, and deserve, pennies for fighting another K-bro).

So, yes, the K-bros are very tough on their opponents in negotiations, and this is rightfully frustrating to people like Adam Booth - especially when he must keep hearing about what nice guys they are. But, their negotiating power is just a reflection of their dominance. It's up to challengers to make us fans believe that they have a genuine chance of winning (or at least of forcing an entertaining fight). Haye did this once with his mouth, but his performance was such a joke that he doesn't deserve a fair contract next time. He doesn't even deserve a title shot. That's when you come back to the 'who else is there?' argument. The promoters have to look for any angle to make a K-bro fight look like a challenge, but clearly the brothers know that no one in the current crop truely deserves a shot. No wonder they don't want to pay them well.

Chambers got a little over 1 million dollars compared to Wlads 5 million dollars for their fight. Hardly pennies or an extortianate split.

manos de piedra wrote:Chambers got a little over 1 million dollars compared to Wlads 5 million dollars for their fight. Hardly pennies or an extortianate split.

Yep, fair enough. There is a tendency to throw comments like 'pennies' and 'slave contract' around. Obviously $1m is not 'pennies'. If those figures are correct, as a split for a World title challenger, it is low: 83.3% to 16.7%. But, it's probably just about what Chambers deserved given his skills/experience/profile/level of challenge. This was largely what I was saying, the brothers screw challengers down on price because they don't present enough of a challenge to warrant a better slice. It's up to challengers to prove they deserve more.

The other stories I hear about extra contract stipulations suggest to me that the K-bros are not the nice/fair guys they paint themselves to be, but you could easily say the same about the stipulations imposed by Manny Pacquiao (or at least Pacquiao tacitly allows them to be imposed through Bob Arum while he plays the nice guy).

It must be frustrating for potential challengers, and they've got a right to be annoyed. But, they've got to take power from the top guys by beating them in the ring, or at least by building a credible profile by beating everyone else. No one has come close to doing this for ages. Haye was the only recent fighter able to convince the public into believing he could win, and he was the only recent fighter to get a decent split from the K brothers. I don't think the boxing public will fall for that type of con again any time soon, which is why I expect the Klitschko's to continue exercising their negotiating dominance over HW challengers.

The issue surrounding the indentured labour contract is that they have their opponents tied to them after 2 further rematches. The other guy is not free to capitalise on his efforts to the best of his ability.

I have always been critical of this whether its done by GBP, Arum, King or K2. But K2 are such gentlemen they are allowed to bind other boxers to them.....with honour and the rep of boxing they always save.

If you become thier mandatory they cant make you do rematches so hw about earning your shot - no rematches a quarter of the purse and the freedom to fight whoever you please. Voluntary defenses are free shots so dont look a gift horse in the mouth.

Boxtthis wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Chambers got a little over 1 million dollars compared to Wlads 5 million dollars for their fight. Hardly pennies or an extortianate split.

Yep, fair enough. There is a tendency to throw comments like 'pennies' and 'slave contract' around. Obviously $1m is not 'pennies'. If those figures are correct, as a split for a World title challenger, it is low: 83.3% to 16.7%. But, it's probably just about what Chambers deserved given his skills/experience/profile/level of challenge. This was largely what I was saying, the brothers screw challengers down on price because they don't present enough of a challenge to warrant a better slice. It's up to challengers to prove they deserve more.

The other stories I hear about extra contract stipulations suggest to me that the K-bros are not the nice/fair guys they paint themselves to be, but you could easily say the same about the stipulations imposed by Manny Pacquiao (or at least Pacquiao tacitly allows them to be imposed through Bob Arum while he plays the nice guy).

It must be frustrating for potential challengers, and they've got a right to be annoyed. But, they've got to take power from the top guys by beating them in the ring, or at least by building a credible profile by beating everyone else. No one has come close to doing this for ages. Haye was the only recent fighter able to convince the public into believing he could win, and he was the only recent fighter to get a decent split from the K brothers. I don't think the boxing public will fall for that type of con again any time soon, which is why I expect the Klitschko's to continue exercising their negotiating dominance over HW challengers.

As Shah said and further - no-one forced them to fight Chisora. Chisora can be grateful for an opportunity that has increased his worth - lets face it - it wasn't an opportunity he deserved on the back of in-ring performances (not in a ring top 10).

Further, Wlad gave 50:50s for his unification fights I believe (certainly for Haye, and I think so for Ibragimov). That's pretty insanely generous - especially when Ibragimov brought next to nothing to the table.

The Klitschko's balance is no difference from the split for Mayweather-Ortiz - and Ortiz actually WAS a world champion - whereas the likes of Chambers, Arreola and Chisora were not and may never be.

Why choose Chisora in the first place then?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Why choose Chisora in the first place then?

Please don't ask me to go through the ring top 10 list Ghosty. I've had to do it something like 5 times in the last 10 days.

Povetkin has pulled out about 3 times of a fight with EITHER brother. He needs 2 (now 1) more years to get ready - remember?
Boytsov has just had hand surgery, pulled out of the tournament to face Wlad and no interest in Vitali until he re-establishes his style (official word from promoter).
Helenius robbed Chisora - and is bottom end of top 10 ranked.
Dimitrenko is fighting Pulev for the Euro crown and a shot at either brother.
Thompson is Wlad's mandatory and isn't going to jeapordise that.
Mitchell needs 2 years (according to GBP).
Arreola's been beaten by Wlad before.
Chambers is injured.
Chagaev hasn't really established himself as of significance since the Wlad defeat - although he would seem to have been a better option than Chisora - there's an argument to say that beating the second best Brit and the "real" Euro champion means that Chisora brings more to the table than Chagaev.

Any others in the top 10/20?
Fury is fighting Rogan - if he is anywhere near that high. [EDIT. GOODNESS GRACIOUS. TYSON FURY IS IN A RING MAGAZINE TOP 10. I KID YOU NOT - HE IS 10 IN THE NEW HW RANKINGS]

The other one, not already mentioned, in the ring rankings is Adamek at 4 - Vitali's last victim.

Helenius, who Chisora beat [sic] - is at 6/7 - so actually - is Chisora that bad an option in terms of quality of opponent?

Now in terms of what he brings on paper - he doesn't hold a belt and hasn't ever held anything more than domestic honours [unjustly]. So whilst the split was NOT generous - it wasn't the cruelest either.

I think the reason Chisora got the fight against Vitali was more or less due to him losing out the first time round and was essentially the Vitali doing him a favour.

His credentials to have been picked in the first place back in 2010 were questionable though. He was unbeaten but completely unproven. But, as with Mormeck now, more or less a case of a sign of the times and limited options. When the Haye/Klitschko fight was agreed upon July was the only date that suited Haye (Sky) so Chisora had to go or Haye was going to fight someone else in July and then retire.

So basically if they've faced Wlad before they aren't a legitimate challenge for Vitali, this is the driving force behind my hatred for the pair, the gang mentality, it's a bloody joke.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:So basically if they've faced Wlad before they aren't a legitimate challenge for Vitali, this is the driving force behind my hatred for the pair, the gang mentality, it's a bloody joke.

That is a bloody joke - but its not actually true. Both have beaten Peter. Arreola is next up after Thompson for Wlad.

When I wrote - Arreola has been badly beaten by Wlad before - I was mixing up my brothers, many apologies - it was Vitali who beat him.

Chagaev is the only alternative option there for Vitali really. Everyone else is either tied up or just doesn't want the fight.

PM for you ghosty.

They picked Chis because he is british and was to make their name (Wlad) more known in UK to sell PPV tickets for the uncoming Haye fight. Nothing about doing anyone favours. Chisora was a pawn in a bigger game. No harm in that. Its business. But these two Most Honourable men of pugilism dont do things like that. They go for the challenges only. Brave souls. In between saving Africa and South America, they find time to rescue cats and the occassional charitable work for boxers by offering them fights.