ERC Heineken Cup Final thread - Ulster v Leinster

[Glas a du]

First topic message reminder :

All roads lead to Twickenham for the clash of the Titans of Irish Rugby on 19/5/12.

Ulster Flag

Ulster for a long time dominated inter provincial rugby in Ireland. Some see this as the start of something big.

Leinster Flag

Leinster are blessed with an amazing cohort of talent, based around BOD. Is the third final in four years one too far for him? If Leinster do it they will create history with the first back to back wins (since Leicester apparently. Couldn't remember that, must have been devalued for some reason )

"@HarpinOnRugby: Sexton needs 15pts in the Heineken Cup final to become the first player to win back-to-back scoring titles in the competition. #2amrugbyfact"

Ulster have failed to make the Rabo playoffs. Will an extra game against Glasgow this weekend help or hinder Leinster? Will a lack of a competitive game hinder Ulster?

Meanwhile, we conducted a vox pops:

"Leinster all day, all night and all the next week. It's in the bag. BELIEVE"
Mr Gibson

"We are gonna Party like its 1999! SUFTUM!"
Mr Ravavivian

"Ulster are in CRISIS!"
Mr Ravavivian

"If Ulster get to the final then it's a devalued tournament"
Mr Livinguptostereotype

"well at least Nigel is reffing, I'll have my pink cowboy hat on cheering for him!"
Mrs Livinguptostereotype

"where my f***ing whisky, I don't support the Burgh, but they were robbed. It will be Exeter challenging Clermont in next years final mark my words!"
Mr Ofussurvive


NEWSFLASH

ULSTER FANS - IMPORTANT NEWS FROM STANDULSTERMAN

Sorry to get off topic lads. Just heard that Paddy Wallace will be down in the bar on Monday helping give away the heineken cup final prize from 8pm if anyone is interested.



"@WhiffofCordite: Not great news about Kearney and BOD is it? Hopefully just minor niggles. Why must pre-final weeks always be so fraught?"

"Mine's a double..." Mickado

"Can we change the title of this thread please to Three time European Champions v The poor man's munster" Hoog.

Come on Ulster, where's your banter?


"Kiwi, this one will do: -

" Rava

From Twitter:
"@rpetty80: If Ulster win the Hcup then Ireland would have 3 teams that have won it multiple times. England has 2 and France its just 1 #rugby"

There have been 35 tries scored in 16 Heineken Cup Finals. Will this game be above or below average in terms of tries?

[Notch]

There's an unfortunate number of fans of all three major provinces who don't act like you'd hope rugby fans should in my experience. It's a shame.

I had a similarly nasty experience with a guy in the RDS at the Pro12 semi-final last year. Fortunately, I've also had the pleasure of meeting some of the most gracious, kind rugby people by going to inter-provincial games.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

that's just life eh?

some nice people some not so nice people
hard to escape that really

[Thomond]

Thomond to be honest you look as bad as that twit in the story with that comment. I was punched in the face by a Munster fan because I said Rog would make a good jockey. Should I hate all Munster fans now? Obviously not. There are clowns everywhere. Making generalisations just reflects badly on yourself.

Also for what it's worth any idiot knows ulster were very good value for their final appearance.

I never said Munster didn't have ghouls either. Of course we do, every fanbase all over the world in every sport. I was just giving my experience, there's sound ones too like. It's like every sport. No need to fly off the handle.

[Glas a du]

And there was me thinking my O'Brien comments had united Ireland...against me

[SecretFly]

Now why would we be against you, Glas??? It's your Crystal Ball I challenge, that's all. Throw it out and get a new one, it's beginning to cloud and....I think I hear Sauron trying to get through to you on it too. So cloudy and dangerous.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Glas, what made you think SOB was overated in the first place?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

The amount of work he did at the breakdown yesterday was outstanding. On top of that his work with ball in hand was great in terms of carrying and then there was some (not too much) nice link play too.

Very impressed with him and he is now a 7 not a martin williams groundhog but he is a 7 and that really shouldn't be disputed.

No one can deny that he is an outstanding 6 as well and also a more than capable 8 and I'm not saying he is more of a 7 than a 6 but he is a very, very good 7.

Waffle waffle waffle

[Mickado]

I think Glas was just fishing with his SOB comments yesterday. The little scamp!

[Rory_Gallagher]

The amount of work he did at the breakdown yesterday was outstanding. On top of that his work with ball in hand was great in terms of carrying and then there was some (not too much) nice link play too.

Very impressed with him and he is now a 7 not a martin williams groundhog but he is a 7 and that really shouldn't be disputed.

No one can deny that he is an outstanding 6 as well and also a more than capable 8 and I'm not saying he is more of a 7 than a 6 but he is a very, very good 7.

Waffle waffle waffle

He is the type of player who is talented enough to play anywhere. However, I think he will ultimately end up at 6. For now, he should play at 7 with Ferris, until a quality 7 comes through. O'Brien is still the best ball carrier in Ireland IMO, but also the best 7.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

The amount of work he did at the breakdown yesterday was outstanding. On top of that his work with ball in hand was great in terms of carrying and then there was some (not too much) nice link play too.

Very impressed with him and he is now a 7 not a martin williams groundhog but he is a 7 and that really shouldn't be disputed.

No one can deny that he is an outstanding 6 as well and also a more than capable 8 and I'm not saying he is more of a 7 than a 6 but he is a very, very good 7.

Waffle waffle waffle

He is the type of player who is talented enough to play anywhere. However, I think he will ultimately end up at 6. For now, he should play at 7 with Ferris, until a quality 7 comes through. O'Brien is still the best ball carrier in Ireland IMO, but also the best 7.

I'd agree with that. Kidney needs to take note:

our backrow (be it Heaslip or POM) is very good it is the other areas of the pitch we need to concentrate on. The backrow can't be expected t defend the midfield, make hard yards, make linebreaks and hit every ruck all at the same time. I am tired of the Irish backrow being the scapegoat for the rest of the team doing badly.

Sorry off topic. All done now

[Rory_Gallagher]

Nope I totally agree. Also, as I have said before, the welsh backrow looks MUCH better than it is because of their backline. Big ball carrying centres/wingers, to give the go forward momentum. I think the welsh backrow has half as much work to do as the irish because of the backs. The irish backrow is expected to do everything, especially SOB and Ferris. I don't think they know what to do at times.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

With you on that one.

Any news on when the Ulster coach will arrive in Belfast?

[Notch]

Saw one disappointed Ulsterman making his way home with the other fans this morning at Twickenham- Martin McGuinness. A welcome addition to our support, assuming he was over for the match.

[Glas a du]

I think Glas was just fishing with his SOB comments yesterday. The little scamp!

I think the Irish coach who had the globes to use Ferris as an impact sub with a starting back row of O'Brien, Henry, Heaslip/O'Mahony will solve himself a lot of problems.

[UlsterinKildare]

I have a story.

Four lenster fans in front of us were absolutely lovely people. Could banter with them, and they turned round and agreed when the linesmen made that poor call.

With ten minutes to go, with nerves and tension and anger at its height for me. I nearby Leinster supporter took it upon himself to come over to me and say this:

"In all fairness Ulster don't deserve to be here and you know it".

I sh1t you not.

Whatever amount of pain and hurt that result brought was magnified by that arrogant Tinkywinky. I'm sure those types are rare and can be found amonst any supporters.

But at that moment i didnt know whether to ignore him, reason with him or punch him.

Leinster are just unreal. Some of our backline stuff was decent but Leinster just seemed to know where to be. Everyone was covered. And when we did manage space out wide it seemed to be John Afoa.

Our defence had a heck of a lot to do. Not helped by coughing up the ball numerous times from poor kicking and turnovers.

As i said on another thread, BML did not manage the 10 shirt well. In hindsight jackson didnt have enough time to get mentally confident. Did iHumph throw a spanner in the works? Who cares. iHumph should maybe have seen the season out since Jackson ahad been given no experience throughout the season.

Clive - yep, it's tough but when we are on the losing side we have no option but to take it....

There is an ultimate, unavoidable truth that all 'real' sports fans know and acknowledge (and by that, I'm not referring to the jonny-come-lately-bandwagon-hoping-morons a la the Leinster fan you referred to in your story).... that is, that victory and defeat are merely impostors along the journey of the love/hate relationship that we have with our chosen team. Leinster had their day on Saturday and they deserved it. For Ulster fans like ourselves, it stings and it hurts. But one thing is for sure, victory and defeat are both fleeting and, if never quite forgotten, the elation and hurt soon fades... Leinster will be beaten again, Ulster will win again... records will be broken and surpassed. For real fans, defeats like those on Saturday, just make the ultimate victory all the more satisfying when it happens.

For an example, look no further than Manchester City fans.... they could care no less about United's 19 titles. For them, the only one that matters was this season...

As aul' Ruyard Kipling wrote:

"If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools

.... Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a FAN, my son!!"

SUFTUM!!!

[ME-109]

While SOB was very good...I thought that BOD was absolutely eveywhere in both defence and attack. He was my MOTM.

[SecretFly]

While SOB was very good...I thought that BOD was absolutely eveywhere in both defence and attack. He was my MOTM.

I'd agree...but then it's now written in stone that O'Driscoll should not be awarded any more personal trophies (2009 World Player of the Year fiasco) as he is now an elder statesman and even when he's the best player on the field (with a gammy leg) he's still "not as pacy as he used to be" and therefore is inelligible on the grounds that he's a pensioner.

[ME-109]

Maybe he should be awarded a Taoiseachs pension....Bertie might offer his

[SecretFly]

Maybe he should be awarded a Taoiseachs pension....Bertie might offer his

Bertie would need EU approval before he could issue that particular 'brown envelope', DOD

[ChequeredJersey]

We've seen a few currently playing legends show their quality recently- Yachvili, despite the cheating, Carter, McCaw, Thorn, BOD- I wonder how long it will take to replace any of them (well, arguably Parra's already there or there abouts)

[SecretFly]

We've seen a few currently playing legends show their quality recently- Yachvili, despite the cheating, Carter, McCaw, Thorn, BOD- I wonder how long it will take to replace any of them (well, arguably Parra's already there or there abouts)

I think we only realise what is under the carpet when the carpet is removed. As long as these elder players are still producing quality, the capabilities of the alternatives will be undervalued and underwritten (which is natural given that superstars are what they are and suck much of the headlines up because they are what they are - superstars) But as soon as the superstars hang up their boots, the media chase down the next hopes and start writing their exploits up. All fame, ability and reputation is a lot of reality but also a fair dollop of journalistic over-hype and or over-indulgence.

[Glas a du]

While SOB was very good...I thought that BOD was absolutely eveywhere in both defence and attack. He was my MOTM.

I'd agree...but then it's now written in stone that O'Driscoll should not be awarded any more personal trophies (2009 World Player of the Year fiasco) as he is now an elder statesman and even when he's the best player on the field (with a gammy leg) he's still "not as pacy as he used to be" and therefore is inelligible on the grounds that he's a pensioner.

I call that the 'Shane Williams paradox'. That's when a player is so much better than the rest that he is ignored for MOTM because his genius is almost expected.

[Standulstermen]

Have to say all the Leinster fans (including rob kearneys uncle) I met were excellent. We stayed drinking with a few just debating how this would effect Ireland all night.

Massively disappointed with the performance as much as the result but appreciated the lads who came out and waved to the fans even though people were trying to usher them off.

Wasn't impressed by twickenham as a ground at all although that part of London was beautiful.

Congrats Leinster . Well deserved and bod was right when he talked about legacy. Another team will have to go some to achieve what they have. Hopefully see you again in lansdowne.

[HERSH]

What’s wrong with Twickers.

I like that shade of concrete, it's a treat on the eye.

[eirebilly]

I have been to Twickers a few times and i really like the ground myself

[Gibson]

What a weekend. It was great meeting up with so many posters from here. I counted 15 different club jerseys represented, when we met up. Banter was immense. Loved it. I believe that is what makes the Heino Final so special. Its everyone's Final. We all own a part of it.

Big love to Ulster and your incredible fans. This is just the start of future marches on Europe. Both sets of fans rocked Twickers. Irish Rugby shone like a beacon on Saturday.

Believe.

[Pal Joey]

Epic weekend for you, mate. You must be on cloud '99'!

[SecretFly]

'99? A very bad year for Chablis Premier Cru

[dublin_dave]

first time in twickers. decent arena inside, looks like legoland from the outside.

[rodders]

Firstly well done Leinster, unquestionably the best side in Europe by miles and with 3 wins in 4 years are now without doubt the club best side in European history. That trouncing by Munster in 2006 seems like a lifetime ago now.

I'm expectionally proud of this Ulster side though . We were very much second best on Saturday but the character and quality we've shown this season is a quantum leap beyond any previous Ulster sides that I've seen, including the 1999 and 2005 sides. It's devastating to lose but sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and say we were beaten by a much better side.

We need to use this heartbreak to spur us on the way Munster and Leinster did before us and hopefully it won't be too long before we get our hands on the trophy again.

It will take a great, great team to wrestle it from Leinsters hands and unfortunately we are quite there... yet.

SUFTUM!

[Notch]

That trouncing by Munster in 2006 seems like a lifetime ago now.

At that time Leinster were a province on the up, loads of young talent, just taken a major step forward by beating a strong Toulouse team away from home but not much depth or experience of winning trophies. Brought back down to earth with a bump by their provincial rivals.

Remind you of any team around right now? This is the start for Ulster, not the end! Bring on the next few years.

[rodders]

This is the start for Ulster, not the end! Bring on the next few years.

Absolutely Notch. No one wants to lose a final but we will be much stronger for this experience. Munster and Leinsters HEC wins were built on the back of multiple painful defeats...... I believe our future successes will be build from this experience too. Saturday was a desperately disappointing end to a fantastic season but we will bounce back.

SUFTUM .

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

That trouncing by Munster in 2006 seems like a lifetime ago now.

At that time Leinster were a province on the up, loads of young talent, just taken a major step forward by beating a strong Toulouse team away from home but not much depth or experience of winning trophies. Brought back down to earth with a bump by their provincial rivals.

Remind you of any team around right now? This is the start for Ulster, not the end! Bring on the next few years.

I like this a lot.

[rodders]

Rewatching the game now and I have to say that we were magnificant, the best we've played all season by miles. Forget about the scoreline this was a real contest up until 70 min when Leinster ruthlessly pulled away.

Leinster are just something special right now, almost unbeatable, but the future is very, very bright for Ulster rugby. This won't be the last final some of these players are in I think.

SUFTUM .

[Mickado]

I rewatched it last night for the first time, thought Ulsters try in particular was excellent. The build up was massive, would love to know how many phases in total they went through, and Wallaces footwork to supply the final pass put BOD and Kearney on thier hole, impressive. He's been playing really well, which explains why this is the first Irish squad in a while that he's been left out of...

[clivemcl]

Yea Rodders i watched it back on Monday. Ulster actually looked in control for the first 10minutes or so. We really held our own for a good while. I'm actually baffled how Leinsters defence had zero gaps despite some of our backline play being very good.

Its just heart breaking to watch the turnovers though. And the poor passes at times. Truth is, there could have been very little in it. Jacksons drop-goal despite being hit awfully was only a foot away from potentially changing the mood of the game. Wannenbergs awful inside pass to ferris, was shocking, but probably a certain try if it had worked.

Just gutting that we fell apart at the end and the scoreline made it look easy.

I'm still smarting from that Leinster fan telling me we didnt deserve to be there. After watching it back, I think we definatly did.

Also shocked there wasnt more said about Terblanche ending his career Zidane style. Do they cite players who are retiring?

[Pete330v2]

It was those small things that made such a huge difference and if they'd come off that match would have looked a different animal. If Jackson had spread the ball instead of going for a drop goal or even if he'd scored it, if Wannenburgs pass had been executed correctly, if Owens hadn't gotten the call wrong about 1F bringing the ball back into the 22 (which he didn't) for Jackson's clearance then that Leinster fan that told you that wouldn't have been quite as mouthy. It's those little inches and those rubs of the green that make the difference. The scoreline is etched in stone for all of HC history but it'll be forgotten by all but Ulster fans just how that scoreline didn't tell the story of the match.

[Glas a du]

You cling on to that notion and it's true. However, Leinster did what few NH teams have ever done. With the game won, they turned the knife. It was not an accurate reflection of the score only on Ulster's side. Leinster earned every point.

[clivemcl]

I need to watch again before I can make a judgement on what caused Ulsters collapse in the end. Leinsters stronger bench? Ulster Tiredness? Terblanche yellow? Or Leinster were just that good? Did ulster realise it was over?

Probably a little of everything.

In fairness our replacement fly-half went off injured, not ideal for any team. (And i questioned the need of having jackson humph and jackson in the squad! oops!)

[Mickado]

The last two tries put a gloss on the score. The first one was the result of Ulster being down to 14 men and Sean Cronin being able to create an overlap, I think the defender should have done better to take man and ball but it wasn’t the worst defensive lapse ever considering the circumstances. The second try was made by a Madigan pass, he cut out 2 defenders and floated the ball into O’Brien’s arms, O’Brien had a 3 on one then and it was just about drawing the man.

Tired bodies, a fresh bench for Leinster looking to kill the game, and being a man down. That’s what killed Ulster in the end.

[clivemcl]

Yea just watched. 27-14 was respectable.

Terblanche coughed up the 3 with the idiotic tackle. and Van der merve try was from Marshall jumping out of the line because he knew there was an overlap. Maybe he was thinking an intercept. Cronin try was a simple overlap.

In a very cynical way you could say Terblanche is the cause of 42-14 instead of 27-14. But well it was all but lost by then anyway.

[rodders]

I don't believe we did capitulate clive. We were still in the game but when Leinster scored that penalty try it was a real turning point.

Terblanche got binned and that was it. Leinster smelt blood and ruthlessly put us to the sword to put a gloss on the scoreline.

As Glas said Leinster earned every point, their passing was breathtaking, but the scoreline was more a reflection of Leinster than us.

I thought we really gave it everything we were just beaten by a better side. The big difference actually probably wasn't Leinsters attacking ability versus ours but how strong their defence was and just that extra bit of composure to take their chances. They punished every mistake.

Cave and Wallace in particular were very sharp and the battle between Cave and BOD, who had his best game in a few seasons, was breathtaking at times... like the master and the apprentice trying to outdo each other.

Our backrow were much better than I thought too, Ferris put in some huge hits and Henry really worked hard at the breakdown and made some lovely offloads but you just have to applaud how ruthlessly efficient Leinster are at the breakdown.

Theres no hype about it, this Leinster side are just jawdroppingly good right now... the best team in Europe by a distance, but there is a huge amount of positives to take from an Ulster perspective.

Bring on next season.

[rodders]

I'm still smarting from that Leinster fan telling me we didnt deserve to be there. After watching it back, I think we definatly did.

We definitely deserved to be there. No doubt about it. We were the best side in our half of the draw this year and Clermont apart, who we beat in pool anyways, we were the best team in the tournament behind Leinster.

We were there on merit without question.

[Notch]

I rewatched it last night for the first time, thought Ulsters try in particular was excellent. The build up was massive, would love to know how many phases in total they went through, and Wallaces footwork to supply the final pass put BOD and Kearney on thier hole, impressive. He's been playing really well, which explains why this is the first Irish squad in a while that he's been left out of...

Indeed!

[Glas a du]

Rodders, your post is (or should be) the essence of rugby.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I don't believe we did capitulate clive. We were still in the game but when Leinster scored that penalty try it was a real turning point.

Terblanche got binned and that was it. Leinster smelt blood and ruthlessly put us to the sword to put a gloss on the scoreline.

As Glas said Leinster earned every point, their passing was breathtaking, but the scoreline was more a reflection of Leinster than us.

I thought we really gave it everything we were just beaten by a better side. The big difference actually probably wasn't Leinsters attacking ability versus ours but how strong their defence was and just that extra bit of composure to take their chances. They punished every mistake.

Cave and Wallace in particular were very sharp and the battle between Cave and BOD, who had his best game in a few seasons, was breathtaking at times... like the master and the apprentice trying to outdo each other.

Our backrow were much better than I thought too, Ferris put in some huge hits and Henry really worked hard at the breakdown and made some lovely offloads but you just have to applaud how ruthlessly efficient Leinster are at the breakdown.

Theres no hype about it, this Leinster side are just jawdroppingly good right now... the best team in Europe by a distance, but there is a huge amount of positives to take from an Ulster perspective.

Bring on next season.

Excellent post rodders.

Also, how good would it be if Kidney plays both BOD and Cave for this NZ tour? I would absolutely love that.

[clivemcl]

Indeed Rory!

[clivemcl]

Also, the omission of Paddy surely hints at BOD being looked at at 12.

[Feckless Rogue]

Don't EVER get your hopes up when it comes to Kidney's selections. It'll be D'arcy/BOD in the centre. And at exactly the 60th minute, regardless of what's happening on the filed, ROG will come on for D'arcy and Sexton will move to 12. But the midfield won't really matter in terms of attack anyway because we'll just be kicking the ball aimlessly up the field whenever we get it.

This will happen in all three tests. The All Blacks will be so astonished at the predictability and lack of imagination of Ireland that they'll be to stunned to play and we'll beat them.

[geoff998rugby]

So we are going to beat them through a combinnation of predictability and boredom.

Great plan - probably our best bet

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