England- Summer Tour Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

Lancaster's named the 42-man squad.

Shame not to see May in there, and for me, Monye is an odd inclusion. Good to see Kitchener get a chance, though I would rather have had Garvey in his place to be honest.

Here's the full squad:

Forwards (23)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Otago Highlanders)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (19)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Triangulation wrote:I am gutted that Stevens' ridiculously over the top 3 year ban seems to have effectively ruined his career. He was terrific pre ban and i was eagerly anticipating his return. - mostly for his carrying and offloading.

He has been fairly rubbish since his return though.

+1. The years that he missed out on seem to have been an important time in the evolution of the modern game. During that time, players and positions developed into almost a new generation-model. Props nowadays are in much better shape and offer a lot more. Stevens was unfortunate that his ban coincided with this time, but the game has moved on.

bluestonevedder wrote:Cheers Sam. Was thinking the same thing regarding Youngs and Mullan's height- could cause some serious problems. I like Mullan's loose game a lot, and one positive is that all our front row options (bar bloomin' stevens) have a good carrying game. He's got hell of a pace as well for a big man, so could flourish on the hard SA grounds.

Stevens main strength is his carrying and link up play!

bluestonevedder wrote:

Triangulation wrote:I am gutted that Stevens' ridiculously over the top 3 year ban seems to have effectively ruined his career. He was terrific pre ban and i was eagerly anticipating his return. - mostly for his carrying and offloading.

He has been fairly rubbish since his return though.

+1. The years that he missed out on seem to have been an important time in the evolution of the modern game. During that time, players and positions developed into almost a new generation-model. Props nowadays are in much better shape and offer a lot more. Stevens was unfortunate that his ban coincided with this time, but the game has moved on.

Very true and summed up much better than me. Effectively the point I was trying to make

I think that its a very strong looking squad if i may be honest. Certainly one that will give the Saffers a good fight.

Bathite wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Triangulation wrote:I am gutted that Stevens' ridiculously over the top 3 year ban seems to have effectively ruined his career. He was terrific pre ban and i was eagerly anticipating his return. - mostly for his carrying and offloading.

He has been fairly rubbish since his return though.

+1. The years that he missed out on seem to have been an important time in the evolution of the modern game. During that time, players and positions developed into almost a new generation-model. Props nowadays are in much better shape and offer a lot more. Stevens was unfortunate that his ban coincided with this time, but the game has moved on.

Very true and summed up much better than me. Effectively the point I was trying to make

It's a shame Bathite, because he was very good before the ban.

Yeah he was and so were Bath, no conincidence that its all gone downhill since.

Yeah he was and so were Bath, no conincidence that its all gone downhill since.

Lipman is one of the few decent forwards at the Rebels as well.

He's a good player real tough bloke, good link man, good at the break down. Absolute helmet though, one of the few in the team I really didn't like

Mind you, rating forward ability based on the Melbourne Rebels scale isn't wise!

Mind you, rating forward ability based on the Melbourne Rebels scale isn't wise!

Him and Delve on the backrow are pretty good. It's the front five that is a complete waste of space, not being helped this season by injuries at tighthead.

I did get the impression he was a sizeable helmet during the time of him leaving Bath. Then again he wasn't the only one as it was a team that included Justin Harrison.

He was a helmet the whole time, getting near the England squad inflated a large ego to astronomical levels!

Wasnt Stevens ban 2 years not three and even before the ban...i never rated him.

Stevens was always very mixed. The reason Bath went well in the scrums was due to the whole front row being quite short. Stevens on his own though with taller front rowers is just a bit pants as he doesn't seem that strong or technically sound.

He seems to have given up running with the ball as well, probably because his club team do not get him to do it (Brits does all the running) so he is just a lump that flops on to rucks.

Looking forward to seeing Hask turn out for England again, it'll be really interesting to see the dynamics of our backrow with a big unit at 6 instead of the sprinter (assuming he's picked and plays there). Any one see his ban is now four weeks, not sure if it'll effect the tour?

Also for the dirt trackers i'd be playing JJ at wing with Lowe at 13. Lowe's passing and off loading game would really compliment having Joseph out side him who is just class at wing or center.

Care
Hodgson
Monye
JTH
Lowe
JJ
Brown

How about that for a dangerous, experienced but still quite new mid week backline? I'd start both Brown and JTH in the mid weekers as I think they're wasted on the bench for the tests and JTH seems to fit the game plan better the other 12 options.

Are you omitting Wade or do you think he'll test start?

I hope Wade will be in the Test team.

I'd be very surprised

So would I sadly. But you never know if Catt's input may have an effect on the backline make up, or if some players are stand outs in training.

The more I think about it the more I think we should start JJ at 11 in the tests (instead of Strettle). I think he's almost certain to be a success at international level and has played left-wing very well for LI. This is an excellent way to introduce him into the senior side, then he can go on and compete with Tuilagi for the 13 shirt over the next few years. The fact we're touring with 3 13s suggests to me there may be some use of JJ or Lowe (who was played on the wing at the JWC as Trinder kept him out of the 13 shirt) on the wing.

I'm pleased Wade is touring, but putting him straight into the test side is too much. He's a right winger when we really need a left winger, and whilst he may make it I think he's not as accomplished an all-round player as JJ.

Stevens was struggling at international level in the scrum before his ban, and all we are really seeing is a continuation of that. However his loose game has fallen away badly. I really wouldn't have him in the squad. Rowntree likes him but doesn't like Garvey. Now Rowntree clearly knows what he's doing, but I don't understand this.

Short of an injury or a terrible performance against the Barbarians I don't see Lancaster dropping Strettle. He seems like a coach that is happy to give players a decent run of games to make their case.

JJ looks a cert as OC against the Barbarians though, so he's got a great chance of playing himself onto the bench as a utility back for the first test.

Interesting question as to who is picking the backs though. Obviously SL will technically have the last say, but Catt will have a lot of influence. In came Andy Farrell and suddenly there were 4 Saracen's backs in the England starting line-up. Yes some players were unavailable, but I still think coaches will tend to go with what they know under pressure.

Strettle certainly didn't make an overwhelming case for staying in the side over the 6 Nations. Catt introduced JJ to the LI starting line-up via the left-wing. Just worth keeping an eye on I reckon.