England Squad v BaaBaas

Couldn't see this posted, but 27 man squad named for this fixture:

Forwards (14)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)

Backs (13)

Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Haydn Thomas (Exeter Chiefs)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Full article http://www.rfu.co.uk/News/2012/May/NewsArticles/150512_England_squad_Baa.aspx

Perhaps suggesting a few players on the fringes?

Glad to see Burns and Gibson are not too far away from the England Elite Squad.

Gibson has had a good season at Irish but has been shifted around the back row due to injuries. We really need him to stick to one back row position.

Burns still needs to work on his defence but he's excellent in attack! He gets the back line moving and can create little half breaks which can set off Gloucester's other exciting backs.

haydn thomas and wigglesworth are the other 2 that have been added
with youngs, care and k dickson all invovled in the AP final seems to make sense.

Nice late call up for thomas im sure he'll be chuffed.

i wonder if gibson will start as he is more of a 7 than the other guys? i suspect it will be dowson.

HQ matt wrote:haydn thomas and wigglesworth are the other 2 that have been added
with youngs, care and k dickson all invovled in the AP final seems to make sense.

Nice late call up for thomas im sure he'll be chuffed.

I agree, I think he's unlucky not to be in the England squad for the summer tour but we do have good depth at 9.

I'd really like to see Gibson play but I think Lancaster will go for Dowson, who I like as I'm a Saints supporter but would rather see the position given to developing another young player who has a future with England.

Zander wrote:I'd really like to see Gibson play but I think Lancaster will go for Dowson, who I like as I'm a Saints supporter but would rather see the position given to developing another young player who has a future with England.

And a player that plays like an openside. England dont have any opensides with caps.

HQ matt wrote:

Zander wrote:I'd really like to see Gibson play but I think Lancaster will go for Dowson, who I like as I'm a Saints supporter but would rather see the position given to developing another young player who has a future with England.

And a player that plays like an openside. England dont have any opensides with caps.

Yes!

We really do need depth at 7. We have a number of youngs 7s coming through in the Premiership but I think of all of them Kvesic is the most likely to nail down an England starting sport in the future. Hopefully sooner rather than later

1. corbs with mulln coming on
2. hartley
3. PDJ
4. Launchbury
5. Palmer
6. Fearns
7. Dowson with Gibson coming on
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Farrell with Burns coming on
11. Ashton
12. Barrett
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden with Goode coming on

imo good mix of young and experience. we want to blood inexperienced players, but it is very important we win

I hope PDJ starts and not Stevens...

flankertye wrote:I hope PDJ starts and not Stevens...

Agree, Stevens is just a penalty machine.

Nice to see Freddie Burns name in there. Hope he does get some game time.

I truly believe that Mat Stevens is more of a bench man rather than in the starting line up.

I wouldn't bemoan the 2 additional SHs their places, but it seems a bit odd that there are 3 SHs training, yet only 3 wings.

mattraven wrote:1. corbs with mullan coming on
2. hartley
3. PDJ replaced by Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Palmer
6. Fearns
7. Dowson with Gibson coming on replaced by Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Farrell with Burns coming on replaced by Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barrett
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden with Goode coming on

imo good mix of young and experience. we want to blood inexperienced players, but it is very important we win

Change the bolds ive put in....and i could quite happy watch that in the 1st test....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mattraven wrote:1. corbs with mullan coming on
2. hartley
3. PDJ replaced by Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Palmer
6. Fearns
7. Dowson with Gibson coming on replaced by Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Farrell with Burns coming on replaced by Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barrett
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden with Goode coming on

imo good mix of young and experience. we want to blood inexperienced players, but it is very important we win

Change the bolds ive put in....and i could quite happy watch that in the 1st test....

I like the look of that, I'd really like to see what Wade and Launchbury can do in a test side as they are both very promising players.

you would be happy with launchbury starting against the boks?

havnt seen much of him this season. how good is he currently? whats his playing style and strengths/weaknesses?

agree on wade starting a test. the guy is special already and has just turned 21

With Launchbury, what I feel is best for him is if he maybe gets his first cap coming off the bench against the Boks.

I haven't seen much of him in the Premiership but he could fill the enforcer role quite well and can also play 6 (having played most of the season there). He can play like an extra back row and is not bad in the lineout. I just think he needs to make more carries, although his defence is good overall.

I don't see the point in including Richard Wigglesworth at all. He is a moderately experienced international who will not be going to S.A. He is hogging squad space that could have gone to someone like Jonny May, Billy Twelvetress or Rob Miller.

Before I get the bird about Thomas being superfluous, I believe hehas played well for a number of seasons and deserves the reward of a Barbarians match and a chance to show what he can do.

Cumbrian yet you would be happy to add a 29 year old like Haydn Thomas with no caps?

I can't quite see how Thomas isn't hogging a squad space yet Wigglesworth is.

Both Haydn Thomas and Richard Wigglesworth are included because Ben Youngs and Danny Care are involved in the final.

I would prefer to throw someone in like Ben Spencer than either Wigglesworth or Thomas.

I agree beshocked- I'd much rather Spencer was there than Wigglesworth. He's got a lot of time on his side, and could really provide more intense competition to Youngs and Care. Very promising player.

Starting backrow against the BaaBaas for me would be:

6. Fearns
7. Gibson
8. Morgan

Gibson is the closest player to a true openside we have at the moment, and he's played very well this season. Fearns is just your typical big carrier, and outs in ferocious hits. Good enforcer-type player. Morgan can do what he does best- bosh and run.

I don't know what it is, but there's something about Launchberry's character that makes me believe he could play against the Boks in a few of the tests. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, I don't mind. I've watched him this season, and at the Junior WC last year, and he is a very very special player indeed. He's mature for his age, and is physically imposing. I would love for him to be on the bench at least for the tests.

Corbis
Hartley
PDJ
Botha
Palmer
Dowson
Fearns
Morgan

Dickson
Burns
Strettle
Barritt
Joseph
Wade
Foden

Bench -
Goode (covers multiple positions)
Hodgeson (Hodgeson or Farrelll on bench)
H.Thomas
Launchbury (covers back row and 2nd row)
Mullan (needs a go - come on for Corbis at 60mins)
Mears (no other hooker cover)
Gibson (needs a look, either Gibson or Johnston)

My feeling is that is an electric back line. We also get a look at a lot of the youngsters in an environment where there are still some test regulars.

Zander wrote:

HQ matt wrote:haydn thomas and wigglesworth are the other 2 that have been added
with youngs, care and k dickson all invovled in the AP final seems to make sense.

Nice late call up for thomas im sure he'll be chuffed.

I agree, I think he's unlucky not to be in the England squad for the summer tour but we do have good depth at 9.

+1 Absolutely chuffed to bits for Haydn - he's a scraggy, difficult customer, just reward for an excellent season

How about this backline:

9.Wigglesworth
10.Hodgson
11.Ashton
12.Barritt
13.Farrell
14.Strettle
15.Goode

Just joking:

This backline

9.Dickson
10.Hodgson
11.Ashton
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Wade
15.Foden

like the backline propdavid! Joseph and Wade in the same backline is a seriously tantalising prospect. From what i've seen, Jospeh's kicking game is pretty decent and he likes to use the old grubber kicks. These, combined with Wade's sheer pace and instincts, could tear up defences. Exciting stuff.

BaaBaas back line could be -

Lawson
Contemponi
S.Williams
Traille
EFS
Heymans
Muliaina

Reps-
Nacewa, Tagicakibau, Donald

bluestonevedder wrote:like the backline propdavid! Joseph and Wade in the same backline is a seriously tantalising prospect. From what i've seen, Jospeh's kicking game is pretty decent and he likes to use the old grubber kicks. These, combined with Wade's sheer pace and instincts, could tear up defences. Exciting stuff.

It's exactly what we want from a BaaBaa's game thats uncapped.
I'm very excited to see what Joseph can do on the big stage. Barritt in the middle with Joseph for that added solidity and a touch of experience. Could work.
Opted for Burns over the more experienced options just because we need to test him.

This backline

9.Dickson
10.Hodgson
11.Ashton
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Wade
15.Foden

I like that backline apart from the 10 and 15 Beschocked. Burns won't be going on tour to SA so I'd be inclinced to give him an hour in this game so that his development continues even though he isn't going on tour. Similarly Hodgson and Farrell have played a lot of rugby and I'd want to keep them fresh, for the same reason I'd swap Foden for Goode. Keep Foden fresh and let Goode lay down an early marker ahead of the tour.

Fair enough Sam. I can understand that viewpoint.

Wade and Joseph definitely need to start in my opinion.

Barritt's the only 12 in the squad so I don't think there is any doubt he'll start.

I think Barritt is a requirement not only as he's the only available 12 but also because it is a fairly young backline and his defensive skills will be of real significance. In a more open game he should be able to throw the ball about a bit more and get the likes of Wade and Joseph running with the ball.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

This backline

9.Dickson
10.Hodgson
11.Ashton
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Wade
15.Foden

I like that backline apart from the 10 and 15 Beschocked. Burns won't be going on tour to SA so I'd be inclinced to give him an hour in this game so that his development continues even though he isn't going on tour. Similarly Hodgson and Farrell have played a lot of rugby and I'd want to keep them fresh, for the same reason I'd swap Foden for Goode. Keep Foden fresh and let Goode lay down an early marker ahead of the tour.

I would normally agree with that, but if those players don't feature they'll play in the first test not having been in a competitive match for a month, which is surely the wrong side of keeping fresh.

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian yet you would be happy to add a 29 year old like Haydn Thomas with no caps?

I can't quite see how Thomas isn't hogging a squad space yet Wigglesworth is.

Both Haydn Thomas and Richard Wigglesworth are included because Ben Youngs and Danny Care are involved in the final.

I would prefer to throw someone in like Ben Spencer than either Wigglesworth or Thomas.

As I said, Hayden Thomas deserves some form of recognition, he's probably not going to be part of future plans, but this is a nice reward for him. Richard Wigglesworth has been there and done it and probably won't be going to S.A. either. There are three scrum-halves, I view taking the extra scrum half as a waste of a squad place, you can take your pick as to which the 'extra' scrum half is.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Barritt is a requirement not only as he's the only available 12 but also because it is a fairly young backline and his defensive skills will be of real significance. In a more open game he should be able to throw the ball about a bit more and get the likes of Wade and Joseph running with the ball.

Im hoping to see the England backline open up a bit more...and lets see what Barritt can offer a bit more offensively. Many have said he has played 10 in SA...i want to see a few of those skills...especially with Wade and Joseph outside him...

has joseph defo been named at 13? If i had to guess I would say Lancaster will pick hodgeson at 10 and farrell and Barritt in the centres.

Im assuming he will be HQ...he's a serious talent...

wouldnt dispute his talent. Farrell and barritt did well defensively in the 6 nations, I can see lancaster giving them the oppotunity to disprove the common contention that they are limited in attack, a ba ba's game is a good time to do that.

wouldnt suprise me if joseph starts on the bench.

I can see it being:

10 Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Joseph

So they'll get their chance...but they need to show something this game.

The 6ns was accepted on a new side coming through...built on the basics....i would suggest most now are looking for the smallest glimmer that we can play offensive rugby aswell...

hodgeson has a fantatic range of passing and he would be a more positive selection at 10 than farrell.

But Farrell is the man in possesion,...

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Farrell is the man in possesion,...

And is Hodgson really the guy to take England forward? - I'm sorry he has some merit but for me remains a relatively poor international outside half - there are some young talented guns on the way and they need to be given a chance sooner rather than later

HQ matt wrote:has joseph defo been named at 13? If i had to guess I would say Lancaster will pick hodgeson at 10 and farrell and Barritt in the centres.

Really hope not. That has run its course, not just for England but for Sarries. You can't challenge the best if you don't have a strike runner in midfield - the opposition will adapt.

i could be wrong but i think lancaster will go for:

10-hodgeson
11-barritt
12-Farrell

with farrell as goal kicker. honestly dont think joseph will start. just feel that lancaster will want continuity and will want to give these players the oppotunity to attack in what should be an open game.

JJ will get his chance, he is an extremely well balanced runner and could offer a lot in a ba ba's game, I think his contribution will come from the bench though.

HQ matt wrote:i could be wrong but i think lancaster will go for:

10-hodgeson
12-barritt
13-Farrell

But it is just a horrible, horrible midfield. I don't think Catt will go anywhere near that, nor will Lancaster want to shift Farrell from 10. I fully expect JJ to debut at 13.

Agree - that is a horrid 10-13.
Its who started against Scotland and Italy and those games were shocking!
England improved in the 6N when Tuilagi was introduced. He wont be playing against the BaaBaa's. So SL/Catt needs to find a replacement that offers more than Farrell can at 13.
Joseph really must start. Would be happy to see either Farrell or Burns at 10 but not Hodgeson.

For the love of God, this is a BaaBaas game – they have their own history and character. If SL plays Farrell/Barritt/Manu or Hodgeson/Farrell/Manu the IRB should charge him with bringing the game into disrepute. Even Jonno wouldn’t be so conservative.

If SL plays Farrell/Barritt/Manu or Hodgeson/Farrell/Manu the IRB should charge him with bringing the game into disrepute. Even Jonno wouldn’t be so conservative.

Couple of things:

1) Neither Hodgson or Manu are conservative choices.

2) Manu definitely will not play in the Baabaas game because he is not in squad as he will be at HQ the day before as he is playing in the AP Final.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If SL plays Farrell/Barritt/Manu or Hodgeson/Farrell/Manu the IRB should charge him with bringing the game into disrepute. Even Jonno wouldn’t be so conservative.

Couple of things:

1) Neither Hodgson or Manu are conservative choices.

2) Manu definitely will not play in the Baabaas game because he is not in squad as he will be at HQ the day before as he is playing in the AP Final.

I'll give you Manu on both points. I stand by my point on Hodgeson given his age - he's currently a quality FH but not a long-term choice nor (arguably) an obvious fit for a BaaBaas game; what would we learn?. I guess my main problem though is Farrell/Barritt as FH/IC since this game should have an attacking intent that that combo hasn't delivered.

Come on,
We all want to see -
Dickson
Burns
Strettle
Barritt
Joseph
Wade
Foden

Maybe swap Farrell with Burns - I will be dissapointed if any different set of backs are chosen.

Cumbrian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian yet you would be happy to add a 29 year old like Haydn Thomas with no caps?

I can't quite see how Thomas isn't hogging a squad space yet Wigglesworth is.

Both Haydn Thomas and Richard Wigglesworth are included because Ben Youngs and Danny Care are involved in the final.

I would prefer to throw someone in like Ben Spencer than either Wigglesworth or Thomas.

As I said, Hayden Thomas deserves some form of recognition, he's probably not going to be part of future plans, but this is a nice reward for him. Richard Wigglesworth has been there and done it and probably won't be going to S.A. either. There are three scrum-halves, I view taking the extra scrum half as a waste of a squad place, you can take your pick as to which the 'extra' scrum half is.

I just don't see the point of giving 1st caps to a mediocre scrum half who is no spring chicken. Why not blood a youngster like Spencer instead?

Barney mcgrew how is Hodgson not a perfect fit for the Barbarians? He's quite an attacking fly half when given the opportunity to be.

Given the choice I would love to see Spencer there, but I'm simply looking at the choices that have been made.

just don't see the point of giving 1st caps to a mediocre scrum half who is no spring chicken. Why not blood a youngster like Spencer instead?

He'll be with the England under 20s squad preparing for the JWC. Kvesic has also missed out on a call up because he will be doing the same pre-tournament preparations.

I'll give you Manu on both points. I stand by my point on Hodgeson given his age - he's currently a quality FH but not a long-term choice nor (arguably) an obvious fit for a BaaBaas game; what would we learn?. I guess my main problem though is Farrell/Barritt as FH/IC since this game should have an attacking intent that that combo hasn't delivered

Personally I'd start neither Hodgson or Farrell. With injuries concerns over Flood's ankle (thank you Mr Banahan with your no arm tackle) they both need to be rested and the game at Welford Rd had some big impacts for both of them. Burns should be given a go as he needs the experience, especially if he's going to be a late call up for the tour.

9.Dickson
10.Burns
11.Wade
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Ashton
15.Goode (can take over the kicking duties if Burns isn't up to scratch)

Bench: Thomas, Farrell, Foden.