Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.


Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)


courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)


Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

[Thomond]

Great score, words can't describe it is what I said, (was a bit over the top there but a lot of metaphors/similes in Irish are!)


Henderson is, Hanrahan isn't in the panel

[Thomond]

Nelson grabs his 2nd. Another strong scrum, he sells the dummy and goes in.

[Mickado]

What score did England put on them? Will that matter to us if England beat SA?

[Sin é]

No I'm criticising you for making constant digs at Sexton to provoke a fight with Leinster fans usually when you are losing an argument.

You don't have to rate Sexton just leave out the snide digs when he's not even part of the debate.

I have no problem with you having something positive to say about players.I have a problem with you complaining when I criticise your digs at Sexton and claiming, "Lots of posters here bore the pants off me with their turn of phrase and comments, but I don't feel the need to object to everything they post."
It's not your turn of phrase,it's the constant sniping at Sexton even when we're talking about something else.

And there isn't constant sniping at O'Gara (Zebo*, POM, Earls (though Earls has quitened most now), Tomas O'Leary, Buckley even though they are not playing internationally.

Bear in mind there are numerous snipers of O'Gara (and not just one poster).

You'd wonder who had the poorer game between McFadden & Zebo reading this forum (and note I don't feel the constant need to have a few digs at McFadden).

[asoreleftshoulder]

If SA win without a BP I think we win the group,is that right?

[asoreleftshoulder]

No I'm criticising you for making constant digs at Sexton to provoke a fight with Leinster fans usually when you are losing an argument.

You don't have to rate Sexton just leave out the snide digs when he's not even part of the debate.

I have no problem with you having something positive to say about players.I have a problem with you complaining when I criticise your digs at Sexton and claiming, "Lots of posters here bore the pants off me with their turn of phrase and comments, but I don't feel the need to object to everything they post."
It's not your turn of phrase,it's the constant sniping at Sexton even when we're talking about something else.

And there isn't constant sniping at O'Gara (Zebo*, POM, Earls (though Earls has quitened most now), Tomas O'Leary, Buckley even though they are not playing internationally.

Bear in mind there are numerous snipers of O'Gara (and not just one poster).

You'd wonder who had the poorer game between McFadden & Zebo reading this forum (and note I don't feel the constant need to have a few digs at McFadden).

So your justification is two wrongs make a right?

[Mickado]

If SA win without a BP I think we win the group,is that right?

They'd have to deny England a BP too but that sounds right to me. England on 9 points SA on 6, Ireland on 10 (after this). We'd have the same points as SA and a better head to head.

[SecretFly]

I'm getting confused now between the two ongoing debates. Did O'Gara score the last try there or did Nelson insult Sexton's ability????

[SecretFly]

But are England going to oblige and lose to SA anyway? They don't look the kind of side that are going to keel over.

[Mickado]

But are England going to oblige and lose to SA anyway? They don't look the kind of side that are going to keel over.

I doubt it. England look like the team to beat in this pool.

Hang on. there are 3 pools. How the feic does qualification work?

:legs if off to check:

[asoreleftshoulder]

Best 2nd place team which will probably be NZ

[asoreleftshoulder]

But are England going to oblige and lose to SA anyway? They don't look the kind of side that are going to keel over.

The only hope we have is that SA had a nice break and played their reserves v Italy where England have 9 guys togging out again that played against us on friday.

[Mickado]

Ok. at the conclusion of the pools all 12 teams are seeded based on their match points (usual tie breakers to separate them) then 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd.

I have no idea who’s playing who in the next round but it looks like we could be waiting on results from other pools to see if we’re through providing England beat SA…

[Thomond]

Ireland were 8th seeds before today. Points differecne could hurt them here. They were -1 before the game +26 after unless they grab something soon.

[Sin é]

No I'm criticising you for making constant digs at Sexton to provoke a fight with Leinster fans usually when you are losing an argument.

You don't have to rate Sexton just leave out the snide digs when he's not even part of the debate.

I have no problem with you having something positive to say about players.I have a problem with you complaining when I criticise your digs at Sexton and claiming, "Lots of posters here bore the pants off me with their turn of phrase and comments, but I don't feel the need to object to everything they post."
It's not your turn of phrase,it's the constant sniping at Sexton even when we're talking about something else.

And there isn't constant sniping at O'Gara (Zebo*, POM, Earls (though Earls has quitened most now), Tomas O'Leary, Buckley even though they are not playing internationally.

Bear in mind there are numerous snipers of O'Gara (and not just one poster).

You'd wonder who had the poorer game between McFadden & Zebo reading this forum (and note I don't feel the constant need to have a few digs at McFadden).

So your justification is two wrongs make a right?

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

[Sin é]

Ireland were 8th seeds before today. Points differecne could hurt them here. They were -1 before the game +26 after unless they grab something soon.

I heard somewhere that Ireland has to beat Italy by 65pts and SA have to beat England by more than 7pts (no bonus pt win).

[clivemcl]

No Sin e,

Its not points difference, its head to head.

If we end on equal points, we go through because we beat SA.

[asoreleftshoulder]

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

The same reason you aren't up in arms over nay sniping at Sexton,Reddan,Healy etc.. I'm a Leinster supporter.That however only applies when talking to Irish posters,I have argued in favour of PoC,Ferris,Best,Earls and probably a few others when posters from other nations have given them criticism which I thought was unfair.

[Mickado]

No Sin e,

Its not points difference, its head to head.

If we end on equal points, we go through because we beat SA.

But we don’t go through automatically if we finish second. We need to be best runner up. But we probably won’t be because NZ will spank EVERYONE and Wales will top their group.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Is anyone watching the U20s then? It is half time atm. There are so many mistakes and our scrum is shocking.

No, i'm in work. Can you keep us updated please Rory?

Aw sorry Mickado I went off to watch it there! I would have tried if I saw this before I went off. Sorry bro!

[Rory_Gallagher]

The scrum was absolutely shocking until Furlong came on. Seriously, get him game time Leinster! Nelson had a lovely game.

[Sin é]

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

The same reason you aren't up in arms over nay sniping at Sexton,Reddan,Healy etc.. I'm a Leinster supporter.That however only applies when talking to Irish posters,I have argued in favour of PoC,Ferris,Best,Earls and probably a few others when posters from other nations have given them criticism which I thought was unfair.

Bully for you for defending POC, Ferris etc.

Now find one post that I've been critical of Healy?*

*to save you the bother, you won't find one.

And to be fair to Reddan, the main issue is that he isn't physical enough for international rugby and tends to suffer badly when the pack is on the back foot - like against England in the 6Ns. He can also throw a few wild passes that can end up as intercept tries.

[disneychilly]

Guess I did read it wrong if the consequence of it was that rant! It wasn't meant to be a guffaw mate. I just think that winning a World Cup final would augment any side's standing-no matter how close.

I should've put aura in quotation marks. I think that we are obsessed over results/winning. Any supposed aura then is in the mind of the others-let that and the media use the results to cause havoc in the minds of the other team. We've been a victim of it every four years up to last.

We never call ourselves unbeatable. We only win 3/4 of our Tests. Average that out-in a 12 test season that's 3 losses. Last unbeaten year was 97. There have been plenty of games where we haven't played well but got the result-they're not all walkovers.

You call it a rant, I'll call it case argued successfully. You make the mistake of thinking my readings of other readings (journos, players, followers) are my views. I think All Blacks are the best rugby nation this world has ever seen - and I'm lucky in that they have a pretty impressive record to prove it - I'm lucky too that for as long as I've been watching rugby, and it began in the 70s, they've been my favourite 2nd side. But when I talk perceptions (both in the minds of the ABs themselves and in the minds of the world's media and followers) I do so to elucidate points not to say the "All Blacks ain't all that good, mate!!"

I didn't know I was in an argument. Was just alluding to one half phrase you made and in jest. I'll refrain from doing so in future. I didn't care enough to come up with that sort of assumption-sorry!

[asoreleftshoulder]

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

The same reason you aren't up in arms over nay sniping at Sexton,Reddan,Healy etc.. I'm a Leinster supporter.That however only applies when talking to Irish posters,I have argued in favour of PoC,Ferris,Best,Earls and probably a few others when posters from other nations have given them criticism which I thought was unfair.

Bully for you for defending POC, Ferris etc.

Now find one post that I've been critical of Healy?*

*to save you the bother, you won't find one.

And to be fair to Reddan, the main issue is that he isn't physical enough for international rugby and tends to suffer badly when the pack is on the back foot - like against England in the 6Ns. He can also throw a few wild passes that can end up as intercept tries.

I never said you were critical of Healy,try reading my post again.

[Mickado]

Is anyone watching the U20s then? It is half time atm. There are so many mistakes and our scrum is shocking.

No, i'm in work. Can you keep us updated please Rory?

Aw sorry Mickado I went off to watch it there! I would have tried if I saw this before I went off. Sorry bro!

No bother Rory, the lads kept me in the loop. had twitter open too, so got some updates there.

[SecretFly]

Guess I did read it wrong if the consequence of it was that rant! It wasn't meant to be a guffaw mate. I just think that winning a World Cup final would augment any side's standing-no matter how close.

I should've put aura in quotation marks. I think that we are obsessed over results/winning. Any supposed aura then is in the mind of the others-let that and the media use the results to cause havoc in the minds of the other team. We've been a victim of it every four years up to last.

We never call ourselves unbeatable. We only win 3/4 of our Tests. Average that out-in a 12 test season that's 3 losses. Last unbeaten year was 97. There have been plenty of games where we haven't played well but got the result-they're not all walkovers.

You call it a rant, I'll call it case argued successfully. You make the mistake of thinking my readings of other readings (journos, players, followers) are my views. I think All Blacks are the best rugby nation this world has ever seen - and I'm lucky in that they have a pretty impressive record to prove it - I'm lucky too that for as long as I've been watching rugby, and it began in the 70s, they've been my favourite 2nd side. But when I talk perceptions (both in the minds of the ABs themselves and in the minds of the world's media and followers) I do so to elucidate points not to say the "All Blacks ain't all that good, mate!!"

I didn't know I was in an argument. Was just alluding to one half phrase you made and in jest. I'll refrain from doing so in future. I didn't care enough to come up with that sort of assumption-sorry!

?.......... I'd forgotten all about the................. argument. I think we both got lost in translation, disney. C'est la vie, it happens.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Tone is sometimes hard to pick up on a forum. Secret Fly is definitely one of the calmer, more intelligent posters on these boards.

[Rory_Gallagher]

BTW Fly, was it you who came up with the idea of Kearney Jr settling at 13 in his career? I think it may have been.

[SecretFly]

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

The same reason you aren't up in arms over nay sniping at Sexton,Reddan,Healy etc.. I'm a Leinster supporter.That however only applies when talking to Irish posters,I have argued in favour of PoC,Ferris,Best,Earls and probably a few others when posters from other nations have given them criticism which I thought was unfair.

Bully for you for defending POC, Ferris etc.

Now find one post that I've been critical of Healy?*

*to save you the bother, you won't find one.

And to be fair to Reddan, the main issue is that he isn't physical enough for international rugby and tends to suffer badly when the pack is on the back foot - like against England in the 6Ns. He can also throw a few wild passes that can end up as intercept tries.

I never said you were critical of Healy,try reading my post again.

Grammar and semantics.... they're gonna kill us all one day!

[SecretFly]

BTW Fly, was it you who came up with the idea of Kearney Jr settling at 13 in his career? I think it may have been.

I hoped...and kinda hope still, Rory. Yep... I think I was the first one with that brain wave and have kept it under my hat since lest the lads who know everything laugh at me!

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well I am converted also, I think he could be our answer to having a powerful, intelligent option in the midfield.

With Madigan inside him at 12, Sexton at 10. Sorted.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Will there be highlights of the game on sky sports i missed it

[SecretFly]

Well I am converted also, I think he could be our answer to having a powerful, intelligent option in the midfield.

With Madigan inside him at 12, Sexton at 10. Sorted.

I don't know why he (Kearney) wasn't taken for the tour and Zebo was. Yes, I think Zebo has a future but the All Blacks were always going to be more hassle than a quick footed wing could sort out. Ever since I've first seen Kearney, I just sensed 13 in him. But I'm not saying Kidney should have taken him to play there but simply taken him for the experience (on wing) as I think the sooner he gets it the sooner the coaches can begin to assess what he might be capable of bringing - and whilst Zebo has true potential as a wing, Kearney (only in my opinion) has much more central (in terms of influence) potential in any future Ireland set up. That's how much I believe in what he has but undoubtedly he'll have to prove me right - or wrong.

[Thomond]

Will there be highlights of the game on sky sports i missed it

All the previous games were put up on the TG4 player so I imagine this one will be too.

McFadden was caught out a lot more than Zebo.

[Sin é]

No, I don't think it is justification for two wrongs etc. etc. I just wonder why you aren't up in arms over the voluminious (several at it) sniping of O'Gara etc. (you just seem to have a problem with me even mentioning Sexton).

The same reason you aren't up in arms over nay sniping at Sexton,Reddan,Healy etc.. I'm a Leinster supporter.That however only applies when talking to Irish posters,I have argued in favour of PoC,Ferris,Best,Earls and probably a few others when posters from other nations have given them criticism which I thought was unfair.

Bully for you for defending POC, Ferris etc.

Now find one post that I've been critical of Healy?*

*to save you the bother, you won't find one.

And to be fair to Reddan, the main issue is that he isn't physical enough for international rugby and tends to suffer badly when the pack is on the back foot - like against England in the 6Ns. He can also throw a few wild passes that can end up as intercept tries.

I never said you were critical of Healy,try reading my post again.

Your mis-spelling threw me (nay), but for the record I have defended Healy in the past.
There is no need to defend Sexton or Reddan as they are rarely criticised (or sniped at)
Murray is used to deflect attention from the flaws in Sexton's game.

[Mickado]

The second part of that sentence condradicts the first part.

[disneychilly]

No worries Fly. Yeah put it down to wires crossed mate-I am drugged up on anti cold medication whilst training at work and wondering how the hell I'm going to cope with seeing Blink 182 tonight lol!

[SecretFly]

Will there be highlights of the game on sky sports i missed it

All the previous games were put up on the TG4 player so I imagine this one will be too.

McFadden was caught out a lot more than Zebo.

If that was directed at my comments, Thomond, I'm not comparing and contrasting Zebo and Kearney. My opinion is they might now play in the same position but I regard them as very different players and I think they can both excel at what they are instinctively good at. I simply think Kearney has a more central future potential than wing and he needs to gain experience quickly if anyone in the Irish camp considers he has a future in it (Ireland International squad that is)

If your comments weren't directed at mine! Apologies

[Sin é]

I don't know why he (Kearney) wasn't taken for the tour and Zebo was.

1) Zebo plays 11.
2) He has just spent the season starting heineken cup games at 11 with Earls at 13.

The 14 wing was between McFadden & Kearney. McFadden won out because he has also played centre.

All in my opinion though.

When in school, Dave was very much rated as the poor relation in comparison to Rob with regard to talent. Some are surprised he is making it as a pro.

[Thomond]

They were a bit. Zebo is coming in for a lot of stick, it's hist first feicing cap. Agaisnt the ABs. People need some sort of perspective like. I don't know if Kearney will make it to international level, he is certainly a very good club level player though. I would say Zebo has a higher ceiling than DK but DKearney has a higher floor.

[Rava]

Did anyone get the result of the U20 game. There were updates earlier but I haven't got a final score!
Thanks

[Thomond]

41-12 Ireland

[rodders]

Can we still qualify for the KO stages Thomond, if so what result do we need later?

[Thomond]

We have at least one more game regardless of what happens, there's 9-12 place 5-8. I think we can if South Africa beat England and keep England from getting an LBP but I'm not too sure it's a bit complicated with all that seeding mularkey.

[rodders]

Jeebus losing that game to England in that manner was a kick in the bollix....

[Sin é]

[quote="SecretFly"]

I don't know why he (Kearney) wasn't taken for the tour and Zebo was.

Ireland manager Mick Kearney said:
“Dave certainly would have been in the mix but he underwent an operation a couple of weeks ago. I think in the groin/hip area.

“Pretty minor but obviously it would have ruled him out of the tour. It was micro surgery rather than a full operation.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0612/1224317754534.html

[Rava]

[quote="Sin é"]

I don't know why he (Kearney) wasn't taken for the tour and Zebo was.

Ireland manager Mick Kearney said:
“Dave certainly would have been in the mix but he underwent an operation a couple of weeks ago. I think in the groin/hip area.

“Pretty minor but obviously it would have ruled him out of the tour. It was micro surgery rather than a full operation.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0612/1224317754534.html

The release of that information a bit earlier might have saved a few gallons of ink on here

[The Great Aukster]

When in school, Dave was very much rated as the poor relation in comparison to Rob with regard to talent. Some are surprised he is making it as a pro.

This is nonsense unless it was maybe under 11s? By the time David reached U20 level the opposite was said, and if you want further confirmation you should speak to their father.

[Notch]

Some really good blogs on Ireland in New Zealand I'd like to share with you. In the first Murray Kinsella analyses the NZ view of Ireland. It's not flattering. And- all the signs are that this All Blacks team want to speed the game up more, want to get the ball in hand more and Carter is now apparently a 'man on a mission' after missing the later stages of the RWC. Gulp. Well, lets hope for a monsoon eh? That's our best chance now IF you believe the New Zealand hacks.

http://murraykinsella.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/all-blacks-watch-1st-test-reaction/

And the lads at Whiff of Cordite aren;t buying the excuses culture Declan Kidney is building around the team, especially his swipes at the provinces. Well worth a read.

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/06/12/embattlement/

Check them out

One comment on that last blog I found particularly insightful; Declan Kidney commented that building a team takes time and doesn't happen overnight.

"when Deccie started the job we were 8th in the world rnakings and needing a good autumn series to hold on to our World Cup seeding, and now, four full years later, we’re in exactly the same position."

[Sin é]

When in school, Dave was very much rated as the poor relation in comparison to Rob with regard to talent. Some are surprised he is making it as a pro.

This is nonsense unless it was maybe under 11s? By the time David reached U20 level the opposite was said, and if you want further confirmation you should speak to their father.

I'm going on comments from a Clongowes staff member (where both Kearney's went to school up to the age of U18 or so).

His father would be the right one to ask alright

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