Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Please, for the love of all things good, nobody respond to that! JUST LET IT GO!

Sorry

Yeah, it is VERY difficult not to. The shock factor is sometimes just too much.

Rava wrote:

Thomond wrote:There's been one comment Notch. You're being a bit dramatic. It's asking a lot of Paddy to slot in straight away and makes you wonder why Deccie didn't bring him in the first place. He is a very solid guy who we know can do a job.

Not at all Thomond. Its the manner of the comment. We could do without them here I'm sure you will agree.

Now I'm in no way defending some of ROGs play this year (it has been a shambles at times) but why are people alright with slagging ROG but not okay with doing it to Paddy?



Boyne/Duigers, How ddid you think ROG/Sexton did at the weekend? I, obviously want Sexton to start but would you like to see the two of them play together again? I thought it was a fairly solid combination.


Also, we don't need to develop a side now. If people are talking about building for the RWC now, I think that is ridiculous. You cnn build a side in 2 seasons. Even less. The Oz RWC side was built in late 2009 up to 2011

rodders wrote:We can't possibly be as solid defensively or as fluid in attack as we were last week if Wallace has only had a couple of sessions, maybe less, with the squad.

If Kidney wasn't happy with the other centre cover in the squad then they shouldn't have been there and Wallace should have been.

Agree with all of this. Hopefully Paddy does himself and the team justice. It would be on the coaches if he doesn't, because his prep for this test has been less than ideal. However he is a pro and he knows the players inside him and out well. He's played well against the SH in the past as well.

Ireland - 15-Rob Kearney, 14-Fergus McFadden, 13-Brian O'Driscoll (captain), 12-Paddy Wallace, 11-Keith Earls, 10-Jonathan Sexton, 9-Conor Murray; 8-Peter O'Mahony, 7-Sean O'Brien, 6-Kevin McLaughlin, 5-Donnacha Ryan, 4-Dan Tuohy, 3-Mike Ross, 2-Rory Best, 1-Cian Healy

Replacements: 16-Sean Cronin, 17-Declan Fitzpatrick, 18-Donncha O'Callaghan, 19-Chris Henry, 20-Eoin Reddan, 21-Ronan O'Gara, 22-Andrew Trimble

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:McFadden isn't "little" he has the strongest upper body of all the Leinster backs so my that token alone Trimble and Duffy are probably the only 2 backs in the squad who are stronger than him

McFadden is good, I just want him to be allowed to specialise in a position. I still feel he's not confident in his defensive positioning in any of the positions he plays and thats a result of him being in and out of the Leinster team in various different positions. He's been unlucky in that regard and its a shame; we need him getting regular gametime somewhere and learning how to defend that channel. Then he can show us the talent he undoubtedly has. I'm still unconvinced. It's particularly hard for him the way this Ireland team is set up in that on the wing he doesn't get his hands on the ball very much and therefore he will be judged solely on his defence and kicking ability. Trimble also suffers from this.

I agree with this. Particularily the positioning part. Positioning is actually more important than takcling IMO. He is bad at that when on the wing, but I don't think he has been exposed once for that on this tour. He has been MANY other times however.

I think he should play 12 but I can see O'Malley and Fitzgerald maybe fighting him for the other centre position with BOD.

Thomond wrote:Now I'm in no way defending some of ROGs play this year (it has been a shambles at times) but why are people alright with slagging ROG but not okay with doing it to Paddy?

I'm alright with criticising a players form, it's more then 'Sure he's useless he'll lose us the game and get injured' stuff that is annoying. Because it's in no way based on his form. It is just one fella on here but I was just after coming from the IRFU facebook page. Say no more.

And O'Gara did well in the 2nd test. He has nothing left to prove at this stage

Match thread here RF182: https://www.606v2.com/t31361-ireland-vs-new-zealand-3rd-test-teams-build-up

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

+the number of rational rugby supporters of Ireland

Some of the stuff on ROG is not based on form, if it's on his form, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism and I will be front of the crowd. I hope we drop him for Munster.

That is true. Some people attack both ROG and Sexton based on, well. not the on pitch stuff. Why this forum can be so frustrating!

Rava wrote:So Sin, you would agree then that this is Kidney on a personal mission rather than looking ahead for the good of the team?

I'd say it would be a team mission to beat the the All Blacks. Its highly unlikely that any of them will ever get a chance to beat the ABs in NZ again, where there is a chance that Kidney will get an opportunity to coach a team that gets a win in NZ.

To be fair, I haven't seen ROG attacked on here yet. His form is always questioned, but he himself hasn't been attacked. Sexton on the other hand.. I really hope he becomes captain of Ireland one day, it would be a huge paradox for Sin to deal with. Kidney made the call, so it must be right, but that dirty bugger, prima donna Sexton is the captain.

Rory, he disobeyed the captain's orders last week. He is a maverick, complete naughty naughty boy who thinks he is better than the team. Joke he is starting ahead of Rog/Madigan.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:McFadden isn't "little" he has the strongest upper body of all the Leinster backs so my that token alone Trimble and Duffy are probably the only 2 backs in the squad who are stronger than him

McFadden is good, I just want him to be allowed to specialise in a position. I still feel he's not confident in his defensive positioning in any of the positions he plays and thats a result of him being in and out of the Leinster team in various different positions. He's been unlucky in that regard and its a shame; we need him getting regular gametime somewhere and learning how to defend that channel. Then he can show us the talent he undoubtedly has. I'm still unconvinced. It's particularly hard for him the way this Ireland team is set up in that on the wing he doesn't get his hands on the ball very much and therefore he will be judged solely on his defence and kicking ability. Trimble also suffers from this.

I agree with this. Particularily the positioning part. Positioning is actually more important than takcling IMO. He is bad at that when on the wing, but I don't think he has been exposed once for that on this tour. He has been MANY other times however.

I think he should play 12 but I can see O'Malley and Fitzgerald maybe fighting him for the other centre position with BOD.

So only Leinster players for the centre then?

Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

Here here.

I think anyone talking about playing inferior players for something that is three and a half years away needs to be carted off to the mad house ASAP.

We need to simply build on last weeks performance and send out the team that can beat New Zealand.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Oh wow I never thought of that.

marty2086 wrote:

So only Leinster players for the centre then?

Marty - he is clearly talking about the centre partnerships for Leinster.

I am very optimistic about this one. I believe we can do it. History beckons lads

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Oh wow I never thought of that.

Mate, it has already started.

According to Sin, Madigan doesn't know how to kick. 1-0 to Hanrahan.

RugbyFan182 wrote:I am very optimistic about this one. I believe we can do it. History beckons lads

I agree. Last week I got up out of duty and sat in the living room in my pants watching it online.

Not this week. Bounce out of bed, ireland kit on, down the pub.

Optimism is back*


*note this usually means we'll do badly

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Oh wow I never thought of that.

Mate, it has already started.

According to Sin, Madigan doesn't know how to kick. 1-0 to Hanrahan.

Hanrahan is a Kerryman. Roll out the joke book.

Is Sexont ditched by the wayside when Madigan/JJ come along?



Agree with Stag (we'll forget the fact that I said the exact same thing a few posts above ) that building for a RWC 3 years away is pointless. I bought a cable to hook the TV to the Laptop. This shows this game is important.


Stag, Kerryman are great footballers. Sure we'll get Star to play second row for us yet.

I hope not Thomond - they will have to outplay him. Sexton is key to this Ireland squad currently.

Thomond wrote:Some of the stuff on ROG is not based on form, if it's on his form, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism and I will be front of the crowd. I hope we drop him for Munster.

(still here ) I think ROG played pretty well whilst he was on last week. Stood flat and kept the temp going that the other players had established. Credit where it's due .

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, I haven't seen ROG attacked on here yet. His form is always questioned, but he himself hasn't been attacked. Sexton on the other hand.. I really hope he becomes captain of Ireland one day, it would be a huge paradox for Sin to deal with. Kidney made the call, so it must be right, but that dirty bugger, prima donna Sexton is the captain.

Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

No they weren't Sin, I watched the game with the SH commentary, and they didn't say anything of the sort. They said the opposite.

They said he looks very unhappy with the decision and that he was having a great game at 10 so it was an odd change.

I agree. Last week I got up out of duty and sat in the living room in my pants watching it online.

Not this week. Bounce out of bed, ireland kit on, down the pub.

Optimism is back*


*note this usually means we'll do badly

I know I know why does this always happen I hope this is going one of those rare days where we get what we deserve

They even suggested that Zebo moved to centre instead with BOD at 12, as Sexton should have been left at 10.

That is just a blatant lie from you Sin.

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

Here here.

I think anyone talking about playing inferior players for something that is three and a half years away needs to be carted off to the mad house ASAP.

We need to simply build on last weeks performance and send out the team that can beat New Zealand.

I assume you believe that a win will have some sort of mental impact on the players? Because for me, if you arent building, you may as well not play.

This is not the six nations, and its not a world cup.

NZ have 12 players in their 22 last weekend that werent in the World Cup final 22. 8 of the first team are different to the world cup final.
Granted there are injuries. But clearly All Blacks see this as an opportunity to build a little.

Ireland are getting carried away with thoughts of the men in green with puffed up chests jumping up and down with glee at the final whistle. Ultimatly though, beating NZ this weekend will have very little impact on our performance come the next world cup IMO.

If anything it might mean we give yet another contract to a stale coach.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Oh wow I never thought of that.

Mate, it has already started.

According to Sin, Madigan doesn't know how to kick. 1-0 to Hanrahan.

Hanrahan is a Kerryman. Roll out the joke book.

Madigan family are from Cork - it will be far more interesting to see how Sexton (family from Kerry) & Madigan play out.

JJ can slot in at 12 and take the kicks for Madigan

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, I haven't seen ROG attacked on here yet. His form is always questioned, but he himself hasn't been attacked. Sexton on the other hand.. I really hope he becomes captain of Ireland one day, it would be a huge paradox for Sin to deal with. Kidney made the call, so it must be right, but that dirty bugger, prima donna Sexton is the captain.

Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

I think he is key too but when people talk abotu 3/4 years down the line they talk exclusively about Madigan and Hanrahan. Now JJ could be playing 12 but is Sexton usurped in a few years? I could see it happening as I think Madigan is just a naturally talented kid.


Clive, the next RWC means feic all at this point in time.

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:Some of the stuff on ROG is not based on form, if it's on his form, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism and I will be front of the crowd. I hope we drop him for Munster.

(still here ) I think ROG played pretty well whilst he was on last week. Stood flat and kept the temp going that the other players had established. Credit where it's due .

If we are sticking with Darcy and Wallace, why not keep ROG around too sure. We want to win, not develop (apparently).


Thomand, you failed to even argue a point. i will counter your claim by saying that beating the All Blacks in one test will mean feic all in a year or two.

I think people are thinking that the two things are mutually exclusive. Some players need to be brought through and developed, as they are the best players available. IMO, Gilroy is already there. Possibly Zebo. They need developed ASAP, but only because they are the best options right now to win games. Same goes for Murray, O'Mahony etc.

We pick the winning team, and to do that means we will sometimes need to bring in some new blood. We don't want to become a development team though where we throw a bunch of randoms in the deep end for the sake of it. There is absolutely no sense in that.

We should be aiming to do both. I think we've kept D'Arcy and DOC around too long and we should move on from them, but we've also shown we're trying that.

I'm glad we've stuck by Ryan and Tuohy as a partnership and persevered with Conor Murray. The home game against Argentina at the end of the Autumn series is a great opportunity to mix things up ahead of the Six Nastions as is the A game against Fiji.

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

Here here.

I think anyone talking about playing inferior players for something that is three and a half years away needs to be carted off to the mad house ASAP.

We need to simply build on last weeks performance and send out the team that can beat New Zealand.

I assume you believe that a win will have some sort of mental impact on the players? Because for me, if you arent building, you may as well not play.

This is not the six nations, and its not a world cup.

NZ have 12 players in their 22 last weekend that werent in the World Cup final 22. 8 of the first team are different to the world cup final.
Granted there are injuries. But clearly All Blacks see this as an opportunity to build a little.

Ireland are getting carried away with thoughts of the men in green with puffed up chests jumping up and down with glee at the final whistle. Ultimatly though, beating NZ this weekend will have very little impact on our performance come the next world cup IMO.

If anything it might mean we give yet another contract to a stale coach.

Clive are you really saying that if we manage to beat NZ for the first ever time in all of history it will not be of benefit to the team. If we do beat them it will be without Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris and Paul O'Connell. Its not like a best Irish team against the NZ 3rd string side. This is a really big match.

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

That's not going to happen so i think we should try something different.......start passing the ball around during the Haka while pointing and laughing every now & then as if it's the first time they have seen the silly dance/song/whatever you would call it.................lets see how angry it would make New Zeland.............Id gladly pay a few euro towards the fine,...........our boys could then rest up next year and concentrate on their provinces seeing as we'd probably get banned for a year, none of our fellas would be picked for the Lions, in fact they could revert to calling it the British Lions(which is what they really wanted anyway)...................Ireland would come back rested for a Grangd Slam in 2014............genius..................

It won't but why do we need to build for a tournament that is over 3 years away? The bulk of the Oz side that took the field in the last RWC was constructed from 2009 onwards. Genia got capped in 2009, Cooper late 2008 and didn't see serious game time until 2009 against Ireland. McCabe was 2010, Beale wasn't until 2009. JOC got capped in the same game as Cooper in 2008. Neither saw serious action until 2009. It doesn't take too long to build a side.


Obviously we need to bring in a few guys and have held onto some for too long but all this let's throw some fella in just because he is young is a bit ridiculous

I agree with thomond. I believe we have to beat them. Im not saying development isn't key in the near future for the team and the up coming players to gain experience, but I believe beating New Zealand would give something to this era of Irish players to conclude on before the development starts.

Is it only me that wonders how Zebo got into the squad in front of the little Kearney?

Sin - stat time mate.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No they weren't Sin, I watched the game with the SH commentary, and they didn't say anything of the sort. They said the opposite.

They said he looks very unhappy with the decision and that he was having a great game at 10 so it was an odd change.

Just checked exactly what they said: They said he wasn't happy to be moved because D'Arcy was injured. They did say he was having a good game at 10 (I made no comment on that). They said he didn't even acknowledge O'Gara when he came on (very poor form).

According to the Guardian Blog on the match, BOD had to go over to him and tell him to 'cop on'.

They seemed to know that he was moved because D'Arcy was injured, so they certainly didn't think it was an odd change.

The fact that Kearney is injured has something to do with it.

Sin é wrote:

Just checked exactly what they said: They said he wasn't happy to be moved because D'Arcy was injured. They did say he was having a good game at 10 (I made no comment on that). They said he didn't even acknowledge O'Gara when he came on (very poor form).

According to the Guardian Blog on the match, BOD had to go over to him and tell him to 'cop on'.

They seemed to know that he was moved because D'Arcy was injured, so they certainly didn't think it was an odd change.

So where did they comment on his poor behaviour? Watch on a little bit more, and you hear one of the commentators saying he doesn't really understand why that call was made either. He says that surely one of the backs such as Zebo could have been moved into the centres, and BOD could have moved to 12. He thought Sexton shouldn't have been moved.

Do you have a link to that blog btw where O'Driscoll had to tell him off?

RugbyFan182 wrote:I agree with thomond. I believe we have to beat them. Im not saying development isn't key in the near future for the team and the up coming players to gain experience, but I believe beating New Zealand would give something to this era of Irish players to conclude on before the development starts.

I'd argue that beating New Zealand is key for developing the middle bracket of the squad (not the newbies or the pensioners). Having Earls, Heaslip, Healy, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Kearney, Tuohy, Ryan actually beat New Zealand would give that group the confidence to push beyond the achievements of the elderly 'golden generation'. The golden generation came in at a time when we couldn't win for love nor money, fought for the wooden spoon most years and were congratulated for plucky displays.

The early-mid twenties in our squad have developed at a time when we can take the field in any NH contest, be it provincial or international, and truly have belief of winning.

The last monkey on the back is the record with New Zealand. We can beat Oz. We can beat SA. But until we have wins over each of the 3Ns sides then there will always be that doubt in the back of players (and fans) minds. If we manage to sort out that mindset then the middle bracket will kick on big time!



....... or we get hockied by 40 points!

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:I say screw development. Right now the most important thing to this team is to beat NZ. That’s the only priority.

Here here.

I think anyone talking about playing inferior players for something that is three and a half years away needs to be carted off to the mad house ASAP.

We need to simply build on last weeks performance and send out the team that can beat New Zealand.

I assume you believe that a win will have some sort of mental impact on the players? Because for me, if you arent building, you may as well not play.

This is not the six nations, and its not a world cup.

NZ have 12 players in their 22 last weekend that werent in the World Cup final 22. 8 of the first team are different to the world cup final.
Granted there are injuries. But clearly All Blacks see this as an opportunity to build a little.

Ireland are getting carried away with thoughts of the men in green with puffed up chests jumping up and down with glee at the final whistle. Ultimatly though, beating NZ this weekend will have very little impact on our performance come the next world cup IMO.

If anything it might mean we give yet another contract to a stale coach.

Clive are you really saying that if we manage to beat NZ for the first ever time in all of history it will not be of benefit to the team. If we do beat them it will be without Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris and Paul O'Connell. Its not like a best Irish team against the NZ 3rd string side. This is a really big match.

Benefit to the team? Maybe. A benefit to those who will be the team in 2015, not overly. Because some of the 2015 team arnt playing.

Your twisting things Stag to make it seem like I wouldnt like a win. Clearly I'd be over the moon. But I'd be skeptical as to how much a win this weekend would impact our chances in 2012.

I'm not asking for asking for wholesale changes. I'm just asking for the coach to be accountable and explain why Zebo was too poor to retain his position. Why earls wasnt good enough to go back in at center.

If there are legitimate reasons, lets hear them.

I simply suspect Kidney had a gameplan to blood players but has abandoned that to go glory hunting in a bid to secure his job.

Thomond wrote:The fact that Kearney is injured has something to do with it.

Presume that's in response to my question. Thanks for clearing that up for me Thomond.

Im not twisting anything Clive.

I am being very straight. I think a win against NZ is worth more to us than anything else that we can do over the next 7 days.

I think would be a massive lift to the team and it would back up the amazing performance we turned in against them last week.

I dont mind which players do it but we must win.