Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

by RugbyFan182 Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

by John Cregan Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:50 am

rodders wrote:
John Cregan wrote:I expect "sick note" Paddy Wallace to have his head bandaged up before the end of the Haka!!

It's official, Ulster peolpe officially have no sense of humour.................i might head back to the relative gaiety of the Golf Board!

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:51 am

Thomond wrote:McFadden ships some blame for the tries. I don't recall a single good performance he has had for Ireland. Zebo showed more in the first game in attack then McFadden has for the tour.

I see no reason for McFadden to ship the blame for any of the tries in the first test Thomond, I had a bit of a scuffle with Rodders over this one (love ya Rodders Hug

) and I've watched it back and still don't see his defensive fault.

I thought he showed a bit in attack last week like the screen play option we did in their 22 in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd test, he scored a try (albeit not a very attacking one) he has looked strong in contact and is reguarly cutting back inside looking for switches when the touch line is coming to get him.

I must admit I am beginning to get a bit of a fear as to how people percieve McFadden, I just don't want him to be another P.Wallace in that people can use him as a scapegoat- not saying you are- I just think he has done well and so far IMO has been better than Zebo or Trimble and I am not a huge fan of McFadden's to be honest just think it is a bit unjust.

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:57 am

John Cregan wrote:
rodders wrote:
John Cregan wrote:I expect "sick note" Paddy Wallace to have his head bandaged up before the end of the Haka!!

It's official, Ulster peolpe officially have no sense of humour.................i might head back to the relative gaiety of the Golf Board!

Sorry if I don't find joking about our*, or indeed any players getting injured or questioning their commitment particularly funny.

Your very welcome over here but we don't need that sort of comments in my opinion guinness

* Irish

by John Cregan Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:15 pm

Rodders,

I love Wallace to be honest, i was merely making a stab at humour regarding a period a few years back where he was getting banged on the head quite a lot. I believe he was making a joke of it himself at the time. Anyway, I think he brings a lot of skill to the centre position, it's just a pity that the bulldozing centre is more effective that a player like Wallace and the AllBlacks are liable to run straight through our smaller guys like McFadden, Wallace, Earls & O'Gara when he comes on.........................

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:17 pm

McFadden isn't "little" he has the strongest upper body of all the Leinster backs so my that token alone Trimble and Duffy are probably the only 2 backs in the squad who are stronger than him

by clivemcl Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:19 pm

i think its a touchy issue John because at the time a lot of Irish fans somehow use the head injury/blood gushing as another way to laugh at him instead of considering it being reflective of his level of commitment.

It would have seemed by some that one of the attributes of how good a rugby player you are is your skins ability to not tear/split and have blood gush out!

by Rava Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:25 pm

Clive, check your messages thumbsup

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm

John

...good points Pete but he still can't tackle..... Hug

....

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

Pete - I don't think McFadden is or should ever become a scapegoat (I think recently our back row has been a scapegoat for example, and O'Brien at 7) but I just don't think he is at the standard required. He has shown that he can be lightning in attack at times, but his inconsistency and his rubbish defence are liabilities. I just think we have better options there.

McFadden should have got his shot at the 12 shirt. It is unfortunate that doesn't seem to be a realistic option anymore.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

Also, Cave must really not be impressing Kidney atm..

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:35 pm

It will be interesting to see where mcfadden plays most of his games for leinster this year

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:40 pm

I think Paddy is happy enough with his call-up:

NEW ZEALAND TOUR PADDY WALLACE: PADDY WALLACE began the week on a beach in Portugal with his family and, after a day delayed in Auckland due a fog-cancelled flight, will end it starting the third Test against the All Blacks in Hamilton on Saturday.

It adds to a varied list of end-of-season tours for the 32-year-old, who will be winning his 30th cap, yet it will be his fourth Irish tour to go with three World Cups.

Wallace was an uncapped member of the 2003 World Cup squad, belatedly making his Irish debut against as a replacement against South Africa in November 2006 before scoring 26 points on his full debut at outhalf in a man-of-the-match performance against the Pacific Islands a fortnight later.

With his versatility as an inside centre-cum-outhalf, who can also goal kick, Wallace has always been a valued squad member although ironically, he had originally been omitted from this tour despite what even Declan Kidney admitted was probably his best season yet after returning from a thumb operation in the New Year.

“Personally, the season went pretty well for me after I came back from my thumb injury. That coincided with a good Heineken Cup run which unfortunately, didn’t manage to get past Leinster in the end, but overall it was a really enjoyable season.”

Wallace had been due to link up with the squad on Tuesday, but in the event didn’t arrive until yesterday after his connecting flight was cancelled due to fog.

But having played against the Barbarians in Gloucester three weeks ago, his place in the starting team as a direct replacement for the departed Gordon D’Arcy was confirmed after a full session yesterday.

“It’s great to be called in. I was disappointed not to make the original squad, but I kept training away. The Baa-Baas game was important from that point of view and then I just kept myself ticking over with Stephen Bell back in Ulster.

“He’s an ex-player and personal trainer, and I hooked up with him for three weeks. It’s beneficial that I was doing that having got the call-up.

“It’s hard to get that balance between enjoying holidays and being on stand-by. But I think with my age profile you can’t relax too much on holidays. You want to be coming back into pre-season in good shape and I really made that a focus this year, and it’s paid off in that having got the call-up I’m feeling in very good shape and well prepared, and it’s just a matter of learning the patterns of play, which I’m pretty used to anyway. It makes that transition quite easy.”

Wallace received the call on Saturday having watched the second Test on television early that morning.

“I was enjoying some sun. I actually didn’t cop when I saw Darce go off. We actually went to the beach and left the phones in the apartment and when I came back there was a long list of missed calls.

“Yeah, it was a bit of a long journey getting out here obviously, and I was in Auckland yesterday. So it’s been a long three days, but it’s great to get back amongst the squad again and getting the first training session under my belt.”

His arrival in Queenstown, “with planes running 50 metres over your head and the Remarkables (mountain range) in the background”, brought back memories of the World Cup.

Missing out on the day off is more than compensated for by his first cap since the win over Russia during the World Cup in Rotorua. “I’m fairly shocked and surprised, to be honest, but delighted at the same time.

“Sitting on a beach in Portugal four days ago, I certainly never thought I’d be playing in the third Test. Absolutely delighted. Watching the guys come so close in the second Test, I think everybody now has a taste for it. We know we can cause them trouble and hopefully we’ll go that one step further this week.”

He renews a partnership with Brian O’Driscoll which dates back to them winning the Under-19 World Championship together in France in 1998 (with Wallace at outhalf), and alongside O’Driscoll he also scored Ireland’s only try in the 21-11 defeat in Wellington four years ago.

“That seems a long time ago now. That was a tough game but it’s always going to be tough playing against the All Blacks, especially on their home patch.

“It’s going to be a huge challenge for everybody involved. Like I said, they came so close last week and it’s a very motivated squad to go one better.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0621/1224318355602.html

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:43 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, Cave must really not be impressing Kidney atm..

Cave's lack of versatility will go against him internationally. Unless he is a nailed on starter, he is going to have trouble making the team.

by WillyGilly Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm

McFadden over Trimble. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Bite me Declan seriously.

by clivemcl Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:47 pm

Theres no doubt paddy will do a solid job, and i'm not annoyed hes playing.

But why are we all ignoring whats going on here? How quick are we to forget or previous pleas to DK and joy at seeing the 1st test team announcement.

I'm pretty sure since the 6 Nations, everyone (including Ulster fans) had pretty much assumed and accepted the fact that paddy was done with Ireland.

This stinks of Kidney getting cold feet (or going for glory at risk of ignoring the agenda he set out with).

The three tests line-ups clearly show a gradual progression from his new thinking slipping back into saving face.

We are all guilty of thinking like Kidney too! We arent complaining because we have got carried away and hoping beyond hope for a win.

BUT

Give it a few weeks/months and yet again and we will all be asking for Darcy and Wallace days to be over, and Zebo/Gilroy to get chances they deserve....

What a merry go round! chin

by clivemcl Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, Cave must really not be impressing Kidney atm..

Cave's lack of versatility will go against him internationally. Unless he is a nailed on starter, he is going to have trouble making the team.

In fairness Sin, the other players who have this 'versatility' which favours them so much, only have this versatility because they are not nailed on starters at their provinces and so are shipped around everywhere, sometimes on the bench.

It would seem odd to me that a player moved from pillar to post is deemed better than a player who owns a shirt at their club!

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm

The real question is why was duffy called up to the squad over kearney jr and gilroy...duffy has played no part in the team and gilroy or kearney jr would have been fighting for starting positions...it makes no sense. Then again i suppose we are talking about kidney here

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:53 pm

Clive, this is an opportunity for Ireland to get a big monkey off their backs. The development can wait for one match.

Kidney had to change his plans because of injuries - first of all D'Arcy for the first test, then Earls for the 2nd test. Since Paddy Wallace kept himself fit, it would seem he was always in Kidney's contingency plans (and probably why he was given a central contract so that he would keep himself available for circumstances like these).

Looks to me to be very good planning on behalf of the Ireland Mgt team.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

clivemcl wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, Cave must really not be impressing Kidney atm..

Cave's lack of versatility will go against him internationally. Unless he is a nailed on starter, he is going to have trouble making the team.

In fairness Sin, the other players who have this 'versatility' which favours them so much, only have this versatility because they are not nailed on starters at their provinces and so are shipped around everywhere, sometimes on the bench.

It would seem odd to me that a player moved from pillar to post is deemed better than a player who owns a shirt at their club!

Keith Earls is a nailed on starter for Munster (and he has been the main utility player for Ireland over the last year or so). Before him Luke Fitz had that role.

Most players start with a few cameos from the bench before they become starters. Cave's lack of pace is a big issue as you can't put him on the wing.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

WillyGilly wrote:McFadden over Trimble. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Bite me Declan seriously.

You know, it is pretty shocking that McFadden got 3 starts on the wing this tour when he isn't even a winger, and with Zebo/Gilroy doing so well this season. Gilroy especially must be furious. I can understand why Trimble isn't starting due to his form, but the picking McFadden on the wing over Zebo/Gilroy is just ridiculous. Who would have predicted that McFadden got 3 starts on the wing this tour? I wouldn't have predicted him to get any starts on the wing, in all honesty. He must be seen as a winger now.

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

Wallace had been due to link up with the squad on Tuesday, but in the event didn’t arrive until yesterday after his connecting flight was cancelled due to fog.

Thats the biggest thing that jumps out at me and confirms why this is such a risky call.

We can't possibly be as solid defensively or as fluid in attack as we were last week if Wallace has only had a couple of sessions, maybe less, with the squad.

If Kidney wasn't happy with the other centre cover in the squad then they shouldn't have been there and Wallace should have been.

Just when you think things are looking up kidney brings you back to earth with a bump.

Win lose or draw Kidney has to go after the weekend. That is shocking from professional coaches.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:00 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The real question is why was duffy called up to the squad over kearney jr and gilroy...duffy has played no part in the team and gilroy or kearney jr would have been fighting for starting positions...it makes no sense. Then again i suppose we are talking about kidney here

Kearney Jr had an op and wasn't available. Surprised you, a leinsterfanforlife doesn't know that.

Gilroy - never played with anyone on that team before (Zebo has been playing with Earls on that side, McFadden with the rest of the Leinster contingent on the other side).

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:01 pm

WillyGilly wrote:McFadden over Trimble. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Bite me Declan seriously.

Trimble will be lucky to start for Ulster next year. However, I do no understand Kidney and his thinking. Seems like he is on his last legs.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:01 pm

Versatility should never be a reason to start over better specialised players. I do not get that one bit. If you want cover, use your bench. Earls is the perfect guy for the 22/23 shirt. He covers 11-15. We need to start focusing on developing players in their BEST position. None of this versatile business anymore, it is doing my head in.

Also, agree with rodders here. I have been a huge fan of Wallace this season, but he should have been picked from the start, not suddenly plucked out of nowhere to start against NZ. He has suddenly jumped ahead of our other options. I do not get these calls at all.

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:03 pm

I'm now here, but who is thei Sin E guy... I like the cut of his jib !

Whisky

by Kingshu Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:03 pm

This was supposed to be a proper tour, with games against Super XV teams etc, does anyone know anything about these games, did Cave etc play in these did anyone show promise?

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:03 pm

Sin, how conservative is that? Not picking a player because none of his team mates for province would be starting alongside him? You are wrong anyway. Wallace is starting. Which is the exact same situation as Savea, who had SBW as his club team mate starting.

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:04 pm

*new, sorry...

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:05 pm

Duigers wrote:I'm now here, but who is thei Sin E guy... I like the cut of his jib !

I'd like to punch him on it.

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:06 pm

Kingshu wrote:This was supposed to be a proper tour, with games against Super XV teams etc, does anyone know anything about these games, did Cave etc play in these did anyone show promise?

Ireland decided not to do it because of the all Ireland ERC final they felt it would be too much for the players. It also would have cost the IRFU more money and they felt that it would not be a good return on the money.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:06 pm

Kingshu wrote:This was supposed to be a proper tour, with games against Super XV teams etc, does anyone know anything about these games, did Cave etc play in these did anyone show promise?

We didnt play midweek games because we only got to bring a 30 man squad

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:06 pm

rodders, it's BoyneRFC.. locked myself out again... Rolling Eyes

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:08 pm

Boyne tell the truth mate...have you been banned..... Whistle

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
WillyGilly wrote:McFadden over Trimble. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Bite me Declan seriously.

You know, it is pretty shocking that McFadden got 3 starts on the wing this tour when he isn't even a winger, and with Zebo/Gilroy doing so well this season. Gilroy especially must be furious. I can understand why Trimble isn't starting due to his form, but the picking McFadden on the wing over Zebo/Gilroy is just ridiculous. Who would have predicted that McFadden got 3 starts on the wing this tour? I wouldn't have predicted him to get any starts on the wing, in all honesty. He must be seen as a winger now.

McFadden fulfills the same role for Ireland as he does at Leinster (utility back). His last couple of starts in the Heineken Cup were on the wing.

The fact that he has had a lot more training time with this team than either Zebo or Gilroy (ie, prep for world cup, + world cup, +6Ns means he gets it on experience over them). Trimble form has been poor (particularly his kicking) so could be targetted. McFadden is also a kicking option. Pity he didn't take that long-range penalty last week.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:10 pm

McFadden is much more of a liability defensively than Trimble is for his kicking. Again, picking players to start just because of their versatility is complete nonsense. Leave them on the bench. McFadden wouldn't be selected over Nacewa/Fitz on the wing for Leinster btw.

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:12 pm

Perhaps I should be for beign so silly to lock myself out once again!

Paddy deserves it on form... but why now? He mus be nackered after coming all that way with no prep.

DK has fecked around another great prospect in Cave. What a kick in the nads.

Why is he playing Ferg (a center) on the wing? Trimble was out best player last year (or one of the) plus he's young. Play him instead.

With Zebo, he had his go and will benefit from the tour. Needs to work on defense before he's trusted at this level.

No Redden again. I guess he is "unlucky" as he was "going well" in training...

No doubt O Gara will add another cheap cap to his inflated total in the 2nd half.

Othe than that, prety much spot on Kidney ! Well done !!!

Doh

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:13 pm

Duigers wrote:
However, I do no understand Kidney and his thinking.

We know you don't understand:D

Cian Healy tweeted the other day that "he failed to persuade the Kidney Bean to do a bungee jump with him."

Wonder does Church understand him?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:14 pm

Sorry guys, honestly don't see why people are bashing McFadden so much, he has proved over the last year that he will not have a long/great future with the Irish team but he has stepped in and done very well.

I can see Gilroy/Earls/Zebo/Kearney Jr all getting ahead of him on the wing for Ireland

I can see Marshall/Hanarahan/Earls getting ahead of him at centre too

I don't think he has played badly this tour though.

by Kingshu Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:14 pm

When Earls was at centre, I thought McFaden was playing as they could switch between them who was centre who was on the wing to keep defensives guessing.

That made sense to me,

by **rodders** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:16 pm

Another Ireland thread spoiled by Sin E clap

.

I've nothing else to add, good team...but big question marks over Wallace fitness and ability to slot straight in at this level at such short notice.

Still believe we can win but this could be a big achilles heel, or an inpired descision. We'll find out on Saturday.

Enjoy the game lads

Believe

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:16 pm

Duigers wrote:rodders, it's BoyneRFC.. locked myself out again...

Boyne, if you like I can do a password reset for you. PM me if you need.

by Rava Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:18 pm

Duigers wrote:rodders, it's BoyneRFC.. locked myself out again...

by Duigers Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:18 pm

Thanks Kiwi, but I havent reached my quota for PMs....

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:19 pm

Pete - I thought McFadden was decent in the second test, but absolutely awful in the first test. The NZ commentators seemed to agree as they said he had a tough time with Savea. Obviously there were other factors (I don't think Earls did a great job defensively either) but McFadden was not good IMO. Plus he was at fault for the Shane Williams tries in the Pro 12 final, and for Davies try during the 6 nations. He has been exposed in defence badly recently.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:20 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, how conservative is that? Not picking a player because none of his team mates for province would be starting alongside him? You are wrong anyway. Wallace is starting. Which is the exact same situation as Savea, who had SBW as his club team mate starting.

Savea is playing in a team that is ranked no. 1 in the world. They were playing the 8th ranked team in the world (Ireland). I'd have no problem with starting Cave (or any of them) against a team that is ranked 8 places below Ireland.

Cave isn't a specialist 12. Neither is Earls. It means moving BOD from his specialist place, to accommodate either of them, and while I do see this as an option in the future, I can see the logic of putting it off for one more game to see if we can get a win over NZ.

by clivemcl Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:23 pm

Please, for the love of all things good, nobody respond to that! JUST LET IT GO!

by Rava Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:24 pm

So Sin, you would agree then that this is Kidney on a personal mission rather than looking ahead for the good of the team?

by **Notch** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:24 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:McFadden isn't "little" he has the strongest upper body of all the Leinster backs so my that token alone Trimble and Duffy are probably the only 2 backs in the squad who are stronger than him

McFadden is good, I just want him to be allowed to specialise in a position. I still feel he's not confident in his defensive positioning in any of the positions he plays and thats a result of him being in and out of the Leinster team in various different positions. He's been unlucky in that regard and its a shame; we need him getting regular gametime somewhere and learning how to defend that channel. Then he can show us the talent he undoubtedly has. I'm still unconvinced. It's particularly hard for him the way this Ireland team is set up in that on the wing he doesn't get his hands on the ball very much and therefore he will be judged solely on his defence and kicking ability. Trimble also suffers from this.

by Rava Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:25 pm

clivemcl wrote:Please, for the love of all things good, nobody respond to that! JUST LET IT GO!

Sorry

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:25 pm

We were talking about Gilroy there anyway, but the same would apply for Cave. And Sin, you are being silly now. I think there is a pretty drastic difference between NZ playing against us, and us playing against Georgia..

You really like to make Ireland out to be an awful team in order to make Kidney seem like a good coach..

picard

And to add, Earls isn't a specialist anything.

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