England are the 4th best team in the world - until November anyway

by Pot Hale Sat 23 Jun 2012, 5:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's obvious innit?

Wales lost. 82.27
England drew 83.09

Congrats England on getting the draw.

by thebluesmancometh Sun 24 Jun 2012, 9:44 pm

I'm not biased...

The refs were excellent during the 6N and were very poor in the AI's Very Happy

by Heaf Sun 24 Jun 2012, 9:45 pm

LOL ... actually don't tell Morg but I think the refs generally were poor

by thebluesmancometh Sun 24 Jun 2012, 9:49 pm

In the AIs?

I don't think they were poor at all, but I do think their interpretations of the breakdown massively handicap the NH teams, but thats been done to death!!!

by Heaf Sun 24 Jun 2012, 9:58 pm

maybe I'm too picky but I thought they struggled with consistency at the breakdown (including 'clearing out' beyond the ruck - e.g. NZ no 3 I think seemed to run straight round and obstruct defenders quite a lot), scrums (so many things) and offside (e.g. chasers in front of kicker regularly and on one occasion even called a Welsh player offside that was well on side just because he was standing flatter than the rest) ... but that's another topic

by thebluesmancometh Sun 24 Jun 2012, 10:00 pm

Heaf

Can't disagree with a few of those, but your right it is another topic one we could go on for for days or even weeks.

by Pot Hale Sun 24 Jun 2012, 10:01 pm

martyr_94 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
martyr_94 wrote:Wales won in 2008? 21-18 at MS?

Correct. They won one match out of 25. That was the one.

I see you conveniently left out the 2005 year..where we won there too.
But still 2/25 and 1 draw is not good enough. Have to be looking to beat them consistently at home before winning away.

No convenience. I figured 6 seasons was sufficient comparison for all NH teams because that was when they started playing more regularly. And it was 1 from 25 in that period. If you include 2005 season, you need to include games they played against SA and NZ as well, so it would be 2 from 28.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 24 Jun 2012, 10:14 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:In the AIs?

I don't think they were poor at all, but I do think their interpretations of the breakdown massively handicap the NH teams, but thats been done to death!!!

England didnt have any trouble thrashing Aus in the last AIs despite this alleged handicap

by Morgannwg Sun 24 Jun 2012, 10:15 pm

freeman lowell wrote:well I aint saying the GS was devalued I m just pointing out the flaws in moargs argument....

Lost a series in SA and desperately tried to claim some pathetic draw as a win (see sky and the comments on this forum).

Lost to Wales twice on the bounce without scoring a try.

Didn't win the 6 Nations, Wales won it (after you lost to them, and apparently you won because Strettle the guy who never tells a lie got the try that would have earnt you a draw...if converted).

U20s lowest finish in the JWC.

These are not flaws, these are 'facts'. These facts dispel the England are worlds 4th best team claim.

by Morgannwg Sun 24 Jun 2012, 10:20 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Yes, the refs were criticised and Morg 'name called' people that commented on the refs performance (even if they hadn't actually blamed the ref for the final result) ... and yet here he is blaming the ref ... I was pointing out the hypocrisy in his post. It wasn't a comment on actual results.

My bad, I took you out of context

I asked you about this last night. Where did I 'name call' people who blamed the ref? Was it in your head? I bet England beat Wales in your head is well with the non-try scored by Strettle that would have in reality earned you a draw (if it was even a try that is, which it wasn't).

by Pot Hale Sun 24 Jun 2012, 11:05 pm

Morgan - at a certain point, you just have to let it go.

England are currently ranked 4th by IRB and Wales are ranked 6th/7th.

As to who is best team in the world - well most of us recognize that would be New Zealand. Everyone else comes a poor second.

These things change over time. No doubt it'll change again in November.

by Morgannwg Sun 24 Jun 2012, 11:46 pm

Being ranked 4th in the IRB group seedings does not make you 4th best team in the world. That is just fantasy propaganda from Sky Sports after not winning a 6 Nations or test series. Seeing as you are on the bottom of the Grand Slammers boot, I'd say that means Wales are better than you and behind the big 3. Where does that put the Grand Slammers in the list of worlds best? Wink

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 24 Jun 2012, 11:55 pm

Morgannwg wrote: Where does that put the Grand Slammers in the list of worlds best?

6th

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Jun 2012, 12:04 am

I'd say since the 6N (when Wales were excellent by the way) that England have improved steadily whilst it seems Wales have struggled to kick on and a few of their better players (Priestland, Warburton, Jones, North, JD) have not really fully fired.

As much as the ratings mean little unless at #1, I do think England are in a slightly better place at the minute and this is reflected in the ratings.

Roll on the AI's...

by Heaf Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:02 am

Morgannwg wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Yes, the refs were criticised and Morg 'name called' people that commented on the refs performance (even if they hadn't actually blamed the ref for the final result) ... and yet here he is blaming the ref ... I was pointing out the hypocrisy in his post. It wasn't a comment on actual results.

My bad, I took you out of context

I asked you about this last night. Where did I 'name call' people who blamed the ref? Was it in your head? I bet England beat Wales in your head is well with the non-try scored by Strettle that would have in reality earned you a draw (if it was even a try that is, which it wasn't).

Well here's one example for starters ....

"Move on you goon. You were battered in the scrums and the breakdown and Walsh didn't reward our dominance in those areas.

P.S. Triple Crown ring any bells?

Morgannwg"

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 10:23 am

Link? Nice one example btw, it only took you until early hours this morning to find it. I don't name-call, the mods don't allow it. I get it though, you sparred with me on a previous ID and lost, now you want retribution. Well, you are going to have to do a lot better.

by Heaf Mon 25 Jun 2012, 10:47 am

That was just one example and the time of posting doesn't reflect how long it took as it didn't take long at all to find ... and its interesting you don't think calling someone a goon, muppet etc is name-calling.

For the record I haven't changed my ID and to me when you start name-calling rather than continuing a reasoned discussion you're the one that loses.

You also seem to have missed the point about your double standards ... attack people who question some decisions when Wales win, but lay into the ref yourself when they lose.

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:03 am

Zzzzzzz. Please stay up all night and give us more examples. Doesn't change the fact that England are not the worlds 4th best team, as I showed Wink

.

by Heaf Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:20 am

I don't need to thanks ... I'm sure plenty of people on here have seen your style and drawn their own conclusions and for the record I don't believe in reality its possible to state as a fact which team is 4th/5th best or whatever as it depends on what you're measuring, over what period of time etc etc - certainly you can have an opinion, but that's not the same as a fact.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:14 pm

England are now fourth in the rankings which used to be occupied by Wales.

Neither England or Wales will consider their tour down south a success. They would have fancied coming away with a series win. That said, home advantage is not to be underestimated. England have a very rigorous AI schedule and Wales have too. So on their home turf playing the same top sides (not sure if SA plays Wales as well), we should have a pretty good indication of where both sides sit. So by all means have your bragging rights - we're Grand Slam champs or we're 4th in the world - but more pressing is your ability to compete with numbers 1, 2 and 3. Very little between England and Wales in that regard.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:49 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:England are now fourth in the rankings which used to be occupied by Wales.

Neither England or Wales will consider their tour down south a success. They would have fancied coming away with a series win. That said, home advantage is not to be underestimated. England have a very rigorous AI schedule and Wales have too. So on their home turf playing the same top sides (not sure if SA plays Wales as well), we should have a pretty good indication of where both sides sit. So by all means have your bragging rights - we're Grand Slam champs or we're 4th in the world - but more pressing is your ability to compete with numbers 1, 2 and 3. Very little between England and Wales in that regard.

Actually its vs the top 3 that we see the difference over the last couple of years :

England: won 2 drawn 1 lost 6 Wales: lost 12
l
But against "the rest" they have a pretty much identical records
England won 17 lost 5 : Wales Won 15 lost 5

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:13 pm

Yes England have the edge in those big SH games. Wales have more games like 3rd and 4th place playoff and seemingly endless games against Australia.

That may change in the autumn with Wales levelling things up or England pulling away further. In which case bring out the trumpets and make yourselves heard...

by englandglory4ever Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:16 pm

The real trouble is this. Wales went to Australia thinking they were the best team in the world having squeaked by England to win the 6Ns. They thought Aus were weakened and there for the taking. To come away from the SH with not a single win against what was meant to be easy victories is too hard a pill for many to swallow.

We now have the "ah but even if we did lose we are still better than England..." tripe being trawled out to justify the welsh massive disappointment.

I suspect some welshmen are only just showing their faces having managed to wash off the egg.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:20 pm

Hmmm, but didn't England also fail to win a game? (A draw isn't a win by the way. It only means both sides lose).

Looks like only a Zespri rating will sort this out... Whistle

by englandglory4ever Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:32 pm

"A draw isn't a win by the way. It only means both sides lose"

EH! How can a draw mean both sides LOSE??? For those challenged by the word DRAW it means both sides scored the same number of points.

"Hmmm, but didn't England also fail to win a game?"

The difference my dear friend is huge. One team and their supporters thought a SH tour win would be easy. The other kept their head down and just tried really hard. I'll leave you to figure out which one was which.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:37 pm

A draw is like getting $10 in Monopoly for coming second prize in a beauty contest as unfortunately there were only two people in the contest. Nothing to get excited about. Very Happy

Of course there was the odd plum saying Wales would win the series. But there were plenty saying they were good enough to win and there's a big difference. Just like there were many English posters saying England could win 2-1. Nothing wrong with confidence and belief and no sense in tarring everyone with the same brush.

Both England and Wales made it a good series but both will be ruing lost opportunities. Hence why the AI series gives them another chance to settle the score.

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:40 pm

Heaf wrote:I don't need to thanks ... I'm sure plenty of people on here have seen your style and drawn their own conclusions and for the record I don't believe in reality its possible to state as a fact which team is 4th/5th best or whatever as it depends on what you're measuring, over what period of time etc etc - certainly you can have an opinion, but that's not the same as a fact.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

The only 'fact' that is indisputable is England are not the fourth best team in the world. Read it and weep.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:41 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:"A draw isn't a win by the way. It only means both sides lose"

EH! How can a draw mean both sides LOSE??? For those challenged by the word DRAW it means both sides scored the same number of points.

"Hmmm, but didn't England also fail to win a game?"

The difference my dear friend is huge. One team and their supporters thought a SH tour win would be easy. The other kept their head down and just tried really hard. I'll leave you to figure out which one was which.

Its like kissing your sister mate, when shehas bronchitis, a fever blister, and a wet running nose, and the goo is glistening on her top lip.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:44 pm

It's not that bad and not because I don't have a sister!

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:46 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:

The difference my dear friend is huge. One team and their supporters thought a SH tour win would be easy. The other kept their head down and just tried really hard. I'll leave you to figure out which one was which.

Nobody in Wales thought that Aus would be easy. Nowhere near, you can't be that close to the All Blacks and be 'easy', just a fact of life in the rugby world. But the fact that you have to back up your ridiculous Wales statements with lowlife BS just goes to show your character. There is only one team who thinks a draw is a win which in turn = a successful series. No wonder you are laughed at.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:48 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's not that bad and not because I don't have a sister!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:49 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:The real trouble is this. Wales went to Australia thinking they were the best team in the world having squeaked by England to win the 6Ns. They thought Aus were weakened and there for the taking. To come away from the SH with not a single win against what was meant to be easy victories is too hard a pill for many to swallow.

We now have the "ah but even if we did lose we are still better than England..." tripe being trawled out to justify the welsh massive disappointment.

I suspect some welshmen are only just showing their faces having managed to wash off the egg.

Right, in the same way that the entire planet used to take great delight in rubbing englands face in their post 2003 failures when we arrogantly assumed that we would be able to put together a decent side at some point in the following decade (oh how we laugh now!) the sheer pomposity of a large proportion of the welsh fans and their complete inability to deal with reality is what makes it so funny to poke fun at their inability to beat to beat australia.

Wonder why TGG switched from England baiting to Wales baiting? The fans give more ammunition. Im sure when we start proclaiming that Care is the worlds best halfback and then get stuffed in the Ais the abuse teasing will switch back this way.

Forunately both sides of the Dyke can always resort to laughing at Ireland.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:50 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:

The difference my dear friend is huge. One team and their supporters thought a SH tour win would be easy. The other kept their head down and just tried really hard. I'll leave you to figure out which one was which.

Nobody in Wales thought that Aus would be easy. Nowhere near, you can't be that close to the All Blacks and be 'easy', just a fact of life in the rugby world. But the fact that you have to back up your ridiculous Wales statements with lowlife BS just goes to show your character. There is only one team who thinks a draw is a win which in turn = a successful series. No wonder you are laughed at.

The last few posts from both of you are seriously resembling two 5 year olds arguing over the 1st step on the climbing frame. Grow up.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:53 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:

The difference my dear friend is huge. One team and their supporters thought a SH tour win would be easy. The other kept their head down and just tried really hard. I'll leave you to figure out which one was which.

Nobody in Wales thought that Aus would be easy. Nowhere near, you can't be that close to the All Blacks and be 'easy', just a fact of life in the rugby world. But the fact that you have to back up your ridiculous Wales statements with lowlife BS just goes to show your character. There is only one team who thinks a draw is a win which in turn = a successful series. No wonder you are laughed at.

Morgann, please leave the man's character out of it, disagree if you must, however another's opinion is just that, an opinion, not BS and has little to do with his character.

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:59 pm

Can you not see his last two posts are complete and utter BS?

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:03 pm

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. That's what somebody who lived in a glass house told me. He learned the hard way.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:05 pm

Who is he? Whistle

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:08 pm

I've not been on the international section for a while before today, and now I remember why! Doh

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:10 pm

Tough crowd Ozzy.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:12 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Can you not see his last two posts are complete and utter BS?

True. The same can be said for your last couple.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:14 pm

I suggest they battle it out mano a mano, Zespri a Zespri: https://www.606v2.com/t31625-new-world-rankings-zespris

by Morgannwg Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:36 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:Can you not see his last two posts are complete and utter BS?

True. The same can be said for your last couple.

Is that your take on it?

I believe I posted facts that disputed the claim that England are the fourth best team in the world. Englandglory started talking BS about what Wales fans were saying about Australia before the series. We in fact said the opposite on every article I read.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:40 pm

You do go on.....and on.....and on. Give it up, be the bigger man

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:40 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I suggest they battle it out mano a mano, Zespri a Zespri: https://www.606v2.com/t31625-new-world-rankings-zespris

Cant you just get your sister to sleep with him?

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:07 pm

I don't have a sister to offer up and even if I did, I wouldn't want to make that kind of call.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:11 pm

This is why youll never make Moderator

by Heaf Tue 26 Jun 2012, 12:51 am

Morg, well done ... you provided your own example to back up what I said about your posting style in less than 24 hours ... but I doubt you will appreciate the irony

by nganboy Tue 26 Jun 2012, 1:17 am

This would only be an arguement between Welsh and English fans.
geesh

by ChequeredJersey Tue 26 Jun 2012, 1:21 am

Yeah this is kind of tedious. Who cares whose 4th best in the world right now? It matters (kind of) in December but right now it's irrelevant

by mowgli Tue 26 Jun 2012, 1:48 am

Drawing a game is like being told you are really cute by the really fit bird you have spent oodles of cash on and been fapping over until your knuckles bleed. I don't think any competitive player wants a draw. Except Wales maybe!

No real England fan is going to take anything from the draw though. Drawing is not a result and having been in my fair share it makes you feel the game was a total waste of time; all rugby players want the result and a W is preferential! Drawing is marginally better though than losing the game after the hooter which is like landing on your old fella while he is at attention.

Anyway this is the usual carp between Saxon and Celt. That Wales are even up there with the English when for years we have been in the doldrums tells you everything about the state of both nations. i think we are at parity.

Wales are in the ascendancy if you look at their performances over the last few years, but have just had a huge wake up call. I only hope the WRU takes note and stops Gatland being lions coach. England meanwhile have not been performing at their best for a while and then had a mare in NZ, this is not what they are capable but I strongly suspect they have started to rebuild and will be a force again within 12 months.

by mowgli Tue 26 Jun 2012, 1:52 am

And by the way, no Wales fan thought Oz would be easy. We all knew that it would likely go against us because the lack of beleif in the team is echoed by the fans....we just aren't there yet and we all know it. The difference now is that there is a very solid foundation and we are improving hence all the fuss about wales and england in the rankings.

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