Is Gatland the right man for the Lions?

First topic message reminder :

Since the summer series I'm having serious doubts about whether the Lions can win the series with Gatland at coach.

To be blunt I don't think Gatland has the nouse to put a team together to beat Australia.

He's turned Wales into the best, most powerful, organised, disciplined and structured team in the NH but that has been shown on 5 occaisions now not to be enough to beat Australia and even more times not enough to beat the SH teams..who wales play more than any other NH side at Gatlands behest.

This is not a criticism of Wales who have fantastic players, and I have huge respect for, but the way that Gatland has built the side and approaches the game.

As with Wasps, Wales are a team built on aggressive blitz defence, counterrattacking and physical superiority and when this is matched there is no plan B.

In the past 12 months the other NH teams haven't been able to match Wales physical intensity over 80 min, skill and offloading ability but the SH teams have shown they can, hence I can see Australia winning the series 2-1 with Gatland at the helm.

I'm not sure if there are alternatives though, with question marks over all the home nations international coaches right now.

Thoughts?

Robbie Deans might be looking for the job by then!

I think the general sentiment is that Warren Gatland thoroughly deserves the job and by all accounts is going to get it, but that his appointment falls short of being inspiring.

I largely agree with this, and assuming Gatland does get the job, I think much will depend on the appointment of the coaches around him. The assumption would be that Howley, Edwards and Rowntree will be on board, after last time round, but personally I'd like to see a different panel, both to challenge Gatland and provide some fresh input from outside the Welsh set-up, particularly in attack where Wales have lacked some imagination.

In terms of players available, the Lions to my mind have an edge over Australia, particularly in the front five.

I don't think Howley would go, 1. he's pants as an attack coach(even if Gats likes him) but mainly 2. he's covering for Gats with Wales, and I'm not sure the WRU would want both concentrating on the Lions at the end of the 6Ns through to the summer.

Priest,

I for one hope he (Howley) does go that way he won't be left in charge of Wales (as rumoured) for the 6 Nations.

I thought it was only the head coach who needed signifcant time to concentrate on the Lions, I imagined that the other coaches would be able to join up after the 6Ns

Damn, well can't tehy make as exception for Howley so he can go as well.

Lets hope so - although I do worry that I'm being a tad harsh on Howley, true we lost to Oz and our backs haven't shown too much flair (except the odd game like Ire 6Ns 2012) since he's been backs coach. But at the same time Gats looked awful from after the 08 GS until the pre2011 WC, and has suddenty hit a rich vein of form.

And against OZ, in spite of Warbs, Priestland and JD2 being injured and the 1st 2 being off form, and missing Ianto due a wedding/jet lag for the whole tour, we still only lost 2 games cruelly at the end, and the other game by 8/9 point. He could well improve like Gats and by the WC 2015 be the perfect man to take over the top job.

Or maybe it's just the drugs talking...

red_stag wrote:I think Gatland is without a doubt the right man for the job.

- He has worked in Ireland, England and Wales
- He has won the 6 Nations twice
- He has won the Heineken Cup
- He has won the Amlin Cup
- He has won the Premiership three times
- He has won the NPC Championship
- He has won the Anglo Welsh Cup
- He has been assistant coach on a Lions tour already
- He has been coaching in Britain and Ireland since 1994

I think having taken this summer off and given the reins to Rob Howley will have done him some good and given him a chance to step back from the team a bit.

Stag, that may be all well and good (Gatlands Record) THAT IS. But all that as been against NH teams. And they have all been played in the NH.

When Gatland first took charge of Wales, they went a won the Grand Slam. I truly believe that after winning the Grand alot of people, not just Wales people was expecting Gatland to take Wales to a higher level ( Winning against the SH teams.) But that has not happend in all this time. (Not in the SH anyway)

That is why i am asking With Wales not winning against the SH on SH turf. What makes you think that being in charge of the Lions this time around will make a difference to winning against the SH teams ?

majesticimperialman wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think Gatland is without a doubt the right man for the job.

- He has worked in Ireland, England and Wales
- He has won the 6 Nations twice
- He has won the Heineken Cup
- He has won the Amlin Cup
- He has won the Premiership three times
- He has won the NPC Championship
- He has won the Anglo Welsh Cup
- He has been assistant coach on a Lions tour already
- He has been coaching in Britain and Ireland since 1994

I think having taken this summer off and given the reins to Rob Howley will have done him some good and given him a chance to step back from the team a bit.

Stag, that may be all well and good (Gatlands Record) THAT IS. But all that as been against NH teams. And they have all been played in the NH.

When Gatland first took charge of Wales, they went a won the Grand Slam. I truly believe that after winning the Grand alot of people, not just Wales people was expecting Gatland to take Wales to a higher level ( Winning against the SH teams.) But that has not happend in all this time. (Not in the SH anyway)

That is why i am asking With Wales not winning against the SH on SH turf. What makes you think that being in charge of the Lions this time around will make a difference to winning against the SH teams ?

What are your options?

We could go the RFU route and employ Jonners just because he beat Aus in 2003....or lets try SCW again, he'll be free post Olympics and we all know what an exponent of lions rugby he is.

While i agree Gats has no SH provenance, he is the best we have.

Still think WRU may veto it after failure in Aus though

Forget Gatland as head coach, just get back McGeechan, otherwise its going to end in tears because the Lions are not going to win it anyway.

I personally think the best aspect of the tour are the mid-week games - at least there is a bit of novelty about those. The top 8 teams meet far too often now to make it anyway interesting.

There's a lot of Geech worship in British and Irish rugby, which I don't go along with. Yes he has passion for the Lions, that's beyond doubt. But he made some major selection errors in the last tour. That Lions squad were good enough to win the series and they didn't.

I was all for giving the job to Johnson until the RWC discipline problems with England. I go along with Gatland now. He deserves it. I do worry about the fact that he's the Welsh head coach though. How will that effect his selections? It would be better if it was a top coach who isn't currently working for one of the four nations. But there aren't any other major candidates.

What club coaches would people like to see hypothetically? Mallinder? O'Shea? Schmidt?

Well it would have to be someone who has toured SH successfully and been an international coach who is free for the year

SCW

Feckless Rogue wrote:It would be better if it was a top coach who isn't currently working for one of the four nations. But there aren't any other major candidates.

What club coaches would people like to see hypothetically? Mallinder? O'Shea? Schmidt?

What a coaching set-up these guys would be. Make O'Shea top man and off we go. Don't want Schmidt because I want B&I coaches. How about Cockers????

Feckless Rogue wrote:There's a lot of Geech worship in British and Irish rugby, which I don't go along with. Yes he has passion for the Lions, that's beyond doubt. But he made some major selection errors in the last tour. That Lions squad were good enough to win the series and they didn't.

I was all for giving the job to Johnson until the RWC discipline problems with England. I go along with Gatland now. He deserves it. I do worry about the fact that he's the Welsh head coach though. How will that effect his selections? It would be better if it was a top coach who isn't currently working for one of the four nations. But there aren't any other major candidates.

What club coaches would people like to see hypothetically? Mallinder? O'Shea? Schmidt?

I don't worship Geech at all! Just think the tears etc. goes down well on the old dvd (something I can't see gats doing )

The major selection errors involved Gatland who was the forwards coach last time out.

Don't know how you could forget Eddie O'Sullivan. From all accounts he did very well as Clive's assistant (he was with the dirt trackers).

O'Shea has never been a Lion so he is out. That is one of the criterian now - to be head coach you need to have either toured as a player or as an assistant previously.

Sin é wrote:

O'Shea has never been a Lion so he is out. That is one of the criterian now - to be head coach you need to have either toured as a player or as an assistant previously.

Is that fact Sin or another of your fantasies?

I dont think there needs to be a criteria stating your lions prowess. SCW toured as a lion and look at his interpretation...!

Everyone in the major rugby playing nations grows up knowing what the lions are about. It's one of the purest examples after the barbarians of the basic ethos of our sport. What rugby means to fans beyond the game.

Therefor any good coach should be able to qualify to take the tour.

Would you not rather see Joe Schmidt than Eddie O'Sullivan?

I think O'Shea would make a fantastic Lions Coach. He has bags of experience working at the highest level without any stigmas.

Conor O'Shea has been coaching for 18 months.

Its fact Rava, they said it when reviewing after the last Lions. The head coach has to have either toured with the Lions previously or worked as an assistant on one if at all possible.

Anyone who has only coached at club level hasn't a hope either.

Rava wrote:I think O'Shea would make a fantastic Lions Coach. He has bags of experience working at the highest level without any stigmas.

No he doesn't. He hasn't coached at international level.


(though its nice to read of a Munster man being held in high esteem for a change).

maestegmafia wrote:Conor O'Shea has been coaching for 18 months.

Conor O'Shea has held coaching/director of rugby roles for seven years.

Rava wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Conor O'Shea has been coaching for 18 months.

Conor O'Shea has held coaching/director of rugby roles for seven years.

He has coached for 18 months. Previously he held management jobs. He is doing very well at Quins, they were a good team, playing good rugby but he hasn't had the time in the job that other options have had. He hasn't proved his worth.

Sin é wrote:

Rava wrote:I think O'Shea would make a fantastic Lions Coach. He has bags of experience working at the highest level without any stigmas.

No he doesn't. He hasn't coached at international level.


(though its nice to read of a Munster man being held in high esteem for a change).

Typical cynicism from you but if you know my history you will see I have always been a fan of O'Shea's even if the IRFU haven't. I don't think his lack of International coaching experience would be a drawback.

maestegmafia wrote:

Rava wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Conor O'Shea has been coaching for 18 months.

Conor O'Shea has held coaching/director of rugby roles for seven years.

He has coached for 18 months. Previously he held management jobs. He is doing very well at Quins, they were a good team, playing good rugby but he hasn't had the time in the job that other options have had. He hasn't proved his worth.

If you want to be pedantic then actually he has coached for 2 years and four months at Quins. Many Director of Rugby roles also include some element of coaching, as well you know.

maestegmafia wrote:I dont think there needs to be a criteria stating your lions prowess. SCW toured as a lion and look at his interpretation...!

Everyone in the major rugby playing nations grows up knowing what the lions are about. It's one of the purest examples after the barbarians of the basic ethos of our sport. What rugby means to fans beyond the game.

Therefor any good coach should be able to qualify to take the tour.

Would you not rather see Joe Schmidt than Eddie O'Sullivan?

Graham Henry, by all accounts, an excellent coach, made a bags of the tour he was on.

Major thing is for the coach to be able to run a happy camp and get the team to gel quickly. Only international coaches have that kind of experience.

I don't think Joe Schmidt has the experience. Schmidt got a Heineken Cup winning team, who lost their first four league games when he took over - which suggests that his methods are not instantaneous.

I should say that I think Gatland is the best choice at the minute. Whether he can lead the Lions to a series win is another matter.

maestegmafia wrote:I dont think there needs to be a criteria stating your lions prowess. SCW toured as a lion and look at his interpretation...!

Everyone in the major rugby playing nations grows up knowing what the lions are about. It's one of the purest examples after the barbarians of the basic ethos of our sport. What rugby means to fans beyond the game.

Therefor any good coach should be able to qualify to take the tour.

Would you not rather see Joe Schmidt than Eddie O'Sullivan?

I know I'm a bit old fashioned but I'd rather see a British or Irish coach in charge.

Rava wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Rava wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Conor O'Shea has been coaching for 18 months.

Conor O'Shea has held coaching/director of rugby roles for seven years.

He has coached for 18 months. Previously he held management jobs. He is doing very well at Quins, they were a good team, playing good rugby but he hasn't had the time in the job that other options have had. He hasn't proved his worth.

If you want to be pedantic then actually he has coached for 2 years and four months at Quins. Many Director of Rugby roles also include some element of coaching, as well you know.

There is nothing pedantic in this at all.

The Lions need a coach not a Director of Rugby.

What about Dean Richards?

Any one think he would be a good Lions coach?

Or would the Blood gate Scandal go against him.

I would love to see Richards in there as forwards coach.

He'll have to prove himself with Newcastle first.

Maybe the next Lions tour for Richards and if he does well at Newcastle or another club then he might be in the running to manage the next Lions.

Seems to me that Gatland is the best of a less than stellar selection for the post.

Does anyone believe he is the best man for the job in the way that Geech fans think he was the best on previous tours?

Gatland does not appear to be an inspiring coach - to fans anyway. I don't know how he's viewed by British and Irish players and whether he's the right man for the job. And that's what really counts. Can they be inspired sufficiently by this man to go to Australia and win this tour?

Anyone who thinks it should be a 3-0 whitewash needs to look again. Putting together a scratch test team in this modern era and hoping to prevail against an established professional side such as Australia ain't no easy thing.

However, the golden rule for these kind of tours is once the decision is made, that's it. Everyone has to get behind the coach and his team. It may well be that If Gatland is appointed, that it his coaching team that will be the real decider in whether the right kind of alchemy can be achieved to make this a winning formula.

Richards (in some capacity) could be a great choice for the next tour.

Assuming all goes ok with his return to coaching he's definitely got the hard-nosed personality and experience to take on the Lions challenge.

Gatland is a bit uninspiring but we are struggling for coaches with experience.

biltongbek wrote:

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

Really Bilts?? I thought it might be whenever half the Boks team fell for that ridiculous dummy from Matt Dawson.... ....

you want me to have a talk with Ruan Pienaar? huh, huh?

A bit like 2009 for me Biltong, more tries, more points but lost the series on a very dodgy penalty...

PJHolybloke wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

Really Bilts?? I thought it might be whenever half the Boks team fell for that ridiculous dummy from Matt Dawson.... ....

you want me to have a talk with Ruan Pienaar? huh, huh?

A bit like 2009 for me Biltong, more tries, more points but lost the series on a very dodgy penalty...

PJ a bit different outscoring a team by one try to lose a match to outscoring a team 3-0 in tries and losing.

But my condolences all the same.

When the deciding Test should have seen one team playing 79 minutes with 14 players and that team won with a last minute dodgy penalty...

Meh, I'd say we're even.

mowgli wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think Gatland is without a doubt the right man for the job.

- He has worked in Ireland, England and Wales
- He has won the 6 Nations twice
- He has won the Heineken Cup
- He has won the Amlin Cup
- He has won the Premiership three times
- He has won the NPC Championship
- He has won the Anglo Welsh Cup
- He has been assistant coach on a Lions tour already
- He has been coaching in Britain and Ireland since 1994

I think having taken this summer off and given the reins to Rob Howley will have done him some good and given him a chance to step back from the team a bit.

Stag, that may be all well and good (Gatlands Record) THAT IS. But all that as been against NH teams. And they have all been played in the NH.

When Gatland first took charge of Wales, they went a won the Grand Slam. I truly believe that after winning the Grand alot of people, not just Wales people was expecting Gatland to take Wales to a higher level ( Winning against the SH teams.) But that has not happend in all this time. (Not in the SH anyway)

That is why i am asking With Wales not winning against the SH on SH turf. What makes you think that being in charge of the Lions this time around will make a difference to winning against the SH teams ?

What are your options?

We could go the RFU route and employ Jonners just because he beat Aus in 2003....or lets try SCW again, he'll be free post Olympics and we all know what an exponent of lions rugby he is.

While i agree Gats has no SH provenance, he is the best we have.

Still think WRU may veto it after failure in Aus though

WTF? Mowgli questions Madge, but missed the glaringly obvious error. Tell me Madge, if all Gatland's success came in the NH, what the flip is the NPC?

sugarNspikes wrote:Richards (in some capacity) could be a great choice for the next tour.

Assuming all goes ok with his return to coaching he's definitely got the hard-nosed personality and experience to take on the Lions challenge.

Gatland is a bit uninspiring but we are struggling for coaches with experience.

Stinks of a wind up and if it is Cyril, I'm going to engage you anyway to try draw a better post than that.

Firstly, assuming all goes ok with Richards' return? What warrants your assumption? Secondly, why is Gatland uninspiring? I'd rather get motivated by him than a person involved in a massive scandal that dragged Rugby Union through the mud.

Rava wrote:I should say that I think Gatland is the best choice at the minute. Whether he can lead the Lions to a series win is another matter.

Always going to be that question over any chosen head coach

Risca Rev wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Richards (in some capacity) could be a great choice for the next tour.

Assuming all goes ok with his return to coaching he's definitely got the hard-nosed personality and experience to take on the Lions challenge.

Gatland is a bit uninspiring but we are struggling for coaches with experience.

Stinks of a wind up and if it is Cyril, I'm going to engage you anyway to try draw a better post than that.

Firstly, assuming all goes ok with Richards' return? What warrants your assumption? Secondly, why is Gatland uninspiring? I'd rather get motivated by him than a person involved in a massive scandal that dragged Rugby Union through the mud.

Re. Richards' return. I mean that he continues to show he's a very good coach and his time in the (relative) wilderness hasn't put him behind in terms of coaching style etc. He's had his punishment.

Gatland is uninspiring. His tactics can be effective but are fairly one-dimensional (not good against Aus as proven) and he tends to get people's backs up quite easily. It's all a bit meh, to be honest.

Gatland coaches Wales, therefore hated. Nuff said.

Hate is such a strong word.

Risca Rev wrote:

Rava wrote:I should say that I think Gatland is the best choice at the minute. Whether he can lead the Lions to a series win is another matter.

Always going to be that question over any chosen head coach

Agree in full.

Howley always gives the impression of just having been smacked on the back of his head by a shovel.The thought of him running a whelk stall makes me shudder never mind our National team.

Morgannwg wrote:Gatland coaches Wales, therefore hated. Nuff said.

This is a hate free thread Morg ..... those that don't abide by this shall be exterminated .

Taffineastbourne wrote:Howley always gives the impression of just having been smacked on the back of his head by a shovel.The thought of him running a whelk stall makes me shudder never mind our National team.

Why are you frightened he'd eat all the whelks?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Howley always gives the impression of just having been smacked on the back of his head by a shovel.The thought of him running a whelk stall makes me shudder never mind our National team.

Why are you frightened he'd eat all the whelks?

Maybe he's frightened the Whelks will eat Howley

Rava wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Howley always gives the impression of just having been smacked on the back of his head by a shovel.The thought of him running a whelk stall makes me shudder never mind our National team.

Why are you frightened he'd eat all the whelks?

Maybe he's frightened the Whelks will eat Howley

They'd have to be mutated whelks, and probably ill tempered too...

WG probably one of the best coaches to go to the SH. He knows what it takes to beat them more than a NH coach I would say. Nuff said really.