America: Land of the Juice Cheating Swine?

I mean, i know we love America for it's 'make it here, make it anywhere' belief. And sure it has the notion of 'liberty' erected as an icon in one of it's best loved cities. But...

Isn't it more like: succeed at all costs? No more exposed than in the sport we love, a sport corrupted by cheats, and mainly, if we look at it from a statistical point, American cheats.

Thoughts, friends?

emore

Side-note: Are all American boxers/trainers willing to cheat?

I mean Freddie Roach is a legend, but he has cheats in his camp, right?

Try to be more subtle Mate...

I could find this offensive If someone else had wrote it....

Poor taste though....

TRUSS, how is it in bad taste, old bean? Enlighten me please, sir...

Because you indicting a whole nation..and It's very poor..

So Chambers and David Millar get caught juicing over here...am I to feel the same???... Nope!!

It's poor derogatory stuff aimed to offend by a cheap.. cheap individual who knows no better I'm afraid...

So I won't take offence.....

Truss, your'e not referring to me as being 'cheap' are you?

Let's have a juice off, American juicers or fighters based in America, versus British fighters based in Europe.

This might get ugly for you though, mate, be warned...

Mosley, Peterson, Berto, RJJ had an incident with juice, Chavez Jr had an incident or twenty with juice...

Shall i go on?

Tarver...

Isn't your greatest ever baseball player a juice monkey?...

Forgive me, this is a boxing thread...

The guy who got banned twice and still got to run in this years Olympic 100 meter final...

Sorry, i'm getting carried away...

Marion Jones...

Whoops! Icons being outed!

Vince Phillips...

Victor Conte, still allowed to work with athletes after juicing most of them up and going to jail...

bumhole

Shahenshah this is a cultured post, please refrain from such crudities.

davidemore wrote:Isn't your greatest ever baseball player a juice monkey?...

No I believe Babe Ruth was clean.

Bonds statistically was king though right?

Somebody really should get Davidemor checked out just managed to have a bit of a conversation with himself for a while there till Shah's comment which unbelievably was the most intelligent on this thread till that point.

alanqlm, it was certainly more intelligent than your attempt at stream of consciousness prose. Here's a hint for you when writing prose, comma.

Pac we know about but who else?

I think that America is the leading nation for drug cheats its a real problem over there but not just in the US. We must put cheats into 1 bag and label them for what they are instead of who they are or where they come from. The reality is cheats can be found all over the globe.

Here, here Onetwo. TRUSS's silence says it all.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Pac we know about but who else?

What do we know?

It's an interesting theory.

If we consider legends such as Holyfield "Evan Fields" and the now very sad James Toney and of course the dubious RJJ as just three examples then some of America's finest boxers have this dirt stuck to them and that is a crying shame given the talents that God bestowed upon them.

It's the same with American athletes. Despite their domination on the track the greatest Carl Lewis has more than a splash of dirt on him. And the whole Marion Jones affair. Awful stuff.

So you're right. Maybe this win at all costs mentality means that cheating to win is also acceptable. Such a sad fact that many of America's foremost athletes (not just boxers) are lovers of the juice. And I don't mean the pure squeezed stuff you get at Morrisons - 3 for £4! (Don't try the apple and beetroot!)

Very interesting thread, Marion jones has passed something like 190 drug tests. In fact never failed one, yet she's testified as being a drug cheat. It shows where olympic style drug testing is at. Armstrong was the most tested athlete in the world and passes ever test, and his team mates say he was a juicer. The good old beeb had a great audio documentary on east german doping, where did the doctors go after the wall fell? Snaped up by Russia, Britain and USA.

The current olympic games drug testing was conducted by GSK, GSK got fined 3 Billion dollars this year. 3 Billion!!!! Google what they got the fined for, it'll make you question which way their moral compass points.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Pac we know about but who else?

What do we know?

We know that he along with Chavez refused random drug testing for the biggest payday off his career...Added to the fact he works with the same people Chavez does.

I love Pac but the cramps, the moving through the weights and the reluctance to testing is an issue. Regardless of him being a cheat or not, testing is testing, this is a blood sport for god sake. We need testing. Is the American influence getting to Pac?

davidemore wrote:I love Pac but the cramps, the moving through the weights and the reluctance to testing is an issue. Regardless of him being a cheat or not, testing is testing, this is a blood sport for god sake. We need testing. Is the American influence getting to Pac?

Have you noticed that ever since Pacman was accused of "Juicing" his performances have went downhill? IMO Its like he stopped all "Juicing" in case he was caught therefore hindering his ability's.

Nobody said anything about Pac being on something until a bitter old man with a drug addled brain made some baseless accusation about it.

Everyone who believes Manny is juicing does so because Floyd Mayweather Sr. said so.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Nobody said anything about Pac being on something until a bitter old man with a drug addled brain made some baseless accusation about it.

Everyone who believes Manny is juicing does so because Floyd Mayweather Sr. said so.

Would you turn down 50 million pounds because you have a fear of needles?

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Nobody said anything about Pac being on something until a bitter old man with a drug addled brain made some baseless accusation about it.

Everyone who believes Manny is juicing does so because Floyd Mayweather Sr. said so.

Would you turn down 50 million pounds because you have a fear of needles?

Flipside of that is would you do something the sports governing body did not require you to do just because that bitter old man said he wanted you to. Personally I think every fighter should be tested to Olympic levels on a year round basis but until the sports myriad governing bodies insist on that no fighter has any obligation.

Innocent until proven guilty? Or something to hide? Drug testing has been insufficient in boxing and it seems when the better standard of testing is used somebody fails a test......I have no confidence until the best possible testing is used.

I'm not opposed to a bit of Yank baiting, but this just seems pathetic. Condeming an entire nation on the basis of a culture of winning seems a little off to me. There are drug cheats from all over the world and no nation can have a holier than you attitude on this subject.

bhb001, this is not a yank bashing thread, it is simply a thread aimed at debate. A debate about the juice fiends that are so rife within American boxing/sport. We cannot deny that this is a huge part of the 'winning' culture that you so vehemently defend. Ask Mayweather his opinion on it and he will say the same. He's American, the best boxer on the planet and sports highest paid athlete. Says a lot about the problem, no?

Also, when Manny came out with the needles thing the opinion of testing was very much different. Most thought it was just Mayweather messing him around, and very few had recently been caught. Public opinion on testing has changed massively over the last couple of years.

Did Pacquiao ever actually say he was afraid of needles or was that just a misquote?

I thought his issue wasnt with needles but with actually having blood taken out of him which he claimed made him feel faint and weak?

Using a fear of needles as a reason when he has several tatoos doesnt add up in the slightest. I just thought it was de la Hoya came out with that but it was slightly misrepresented. The issue was more to do with blood?

I don't know, you're probably right Manos, my point is opinion on testing was completely different at the time.

John and Manos, a pleasure to have your wisdom shared on this thread. Manny not taking tests is seriously suspect, especially for such a pure, god-loving individual as himself. Is the American influence of success taking over his belief?

Can you please post the evidence of your claim that the US is statistically the 'land of the juice cheating swine' please davidemore? Even something simple like the ratio of the number of confirmed juicers compared to the number of professional athletes for various countries in various sports would do for me. This wouldnt actually prove anything, because other factors could warp the statistics (eg; the US has a relatively strong anti-doping system so simply catches more cheats), but it would be a start.

After all, without some kind of proof to back up your claims this is simply an ignorant and offensive attack on the US.

Well put Joey

Singling out the US for what is a problem world wide is the most obvious bit of yank bashing that could expect to get. You may as well blame Nigeria for internet fraud. Yes, it exists. Yes, we know it happens there. Is it unique in the world? Not by a long shot.

bhb001 wrote:Well put Joey

You may as well blame Nigeria for internet fraud. .

I hope this is not the case, I am working on quite a lucrative deal with Prince Oli Nbadze at the minute don't need comments like yours which may cause me to question his credentials

Jeff, look at the fine print first!!

Don't need to, I work on trust, he seemed honest enough on the email, that is enough for me.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Nobody said anything about Pac being on something until a bitter old man with a drug addled brain made some baseless accusation about it.

Everyone who believes Manny is juicing does so because Floyd Mayweather Sr. said so.

Would you turn down 50 million pounds because you have a fear of needles?

Questions like this should not be neccessary. The best tests should be mandatory. Can you imagine the Olympics if drug testing was optional? I think history has shown there will always be cheats so the best tests will be needed to catch them.

Joey, I'm davidemore, peeps on here know that i don't just spout out ideas and accusations without the highest levels of research and informed, objective opinion. Come on now, Joey...

You must be new on here, Joey...

I will.

davidemore wrote:Joey, I'm davidemore, peeps on here know that i don't just spout out ideas and accusations without the highest levels of research and informed, objective opinion. Come on now, Joey...

What are you suggesting, bhb001?