Did Leinster throw the game on Friday vs Connacht?

First topic message reminder :

Well did they?

I believe they didn't care whether they won or not.

IMO it needs to be looked at by the Rabo league and action taken if they feel they threw the game away.

Scarletspiderman you make it out as if you're the only side with a backline chock full of internationals.

gowales wrote:Well we all have to find a middle ground because i find most of the Pro 12 games to be lacking intensity and will, while the Aviva can sometimes be too much of a slog fest.

Agreed.

beshocked wrote:

gowales wrote:Well we all have to find a middle ground because i find most of the Pro 12 games to be lacking intensity and will, while the Aviva can sometimes be too much of a slog fest.

Agreed.

To be fair like someone said on a Jeff/Rabo thread started by some wum,

Pot Hale - on https://www.606v2.com/t34422-jeff-vs-rabo wrote:Saracens 40-3 London Irish
Tigers 38-13 London Welsh
Exeter 43 -6 Sale
Dragons 37 - 6 Zebre
Scarlets 45-20 Leinster

One-sided matches all round.

More competitive:

Connacht 9-13 Blues
Edinburgh 18-23 Munster
Ulster 18-10 Glasgow
Glouc 19 - 24 Saints
Worcs 23-24 Bath

Best game because of its comeback value:

Quins v Wasps

Overall for both leagues? Trying, but could do better.

So all in all there were runaway wins in both Leagues (and Wuss match fixing).

beshocked wrote:

gowales wrote:Well we all have to find a middle ground because i find most of the Pro 12 games to be lacking intensity and will, while the Aviva can sometimes be too much of a slog fest.

Agreed.

Don't agree at all............ the AP certainly was disappointing in parts last season (albeit I only get to see the edited highlights on ITV4 except for the odd game here and there), the Pro 12 is certainly getting more competitive as the regions and provinces are getting more experienced

01 Wian du Preez
02 Damien Varley
03 BJ Botha
04 Donncha O'Callaghan
05 Billy Holland
06 Paddy Butler
07 Sean Dougall
08 James Coughlan
09 Duncan Williams
10 Ian Keatley
11 Luke O'Dea
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett (capt.)
15 Denis Hurley

This was the Munster team that beat Edinburgh on Saturday.

They didnt pick Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Felix Jones etc. Practically all their top Irish internationals.

Did Munster throw the match too because the scoreline said they won? Does the op have an issue with the Munster line up?

flyhalffactory wrote:

beshocked wrote:

gowales wrote:Well we all have to find a middle ground because i find most of the Pro 12 games to be lacking intensity and will, while the Aviva can sometimes be too much of a slog fest.

Agreed.

Don't agree at all............ the AP certainly was disappointing in parts last here (albeit I only get to see the edited highlights on ITV4 except for the odd game here and there), the Pro 12 is certainly getting more competitive as the regions and provinces are getting more experienced

flyhalffactory you are biased towards the Pro12 though. I wouldn't say the Pro12 is more competitive.

GunsGerms wrote:01 Wian du Preez
02 Damien Varley
03 BJ Botha
04 Donncha O'Callaghan
05 Billy Holland
06 Paddy Butler
07 Sean Dougall
08 James Coughlan
09 Duncan Williams
10 Ian Keatley
11 Luke O'Dea
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett (capt.)
15 Denis Hurley

This was the Munster team that beat Edinburgh on Saturday.

They didnt pick Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara, Peter O'Mahony, Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Felix Jones etc. Practically all their top Irish internationals.

Did Munster throw the match too because the scoreline said they won? Does the op have an issue with the Munster line up?

Agree 100%
Did London Welsh, London Irish, or Sale put out weakened teams?

'shocked - to be fair anyone bar Zebre would not be a complete shock in the top 6, so that is more or less the same as the Jeff (where you said all bar Wuss and LW).

beshocked wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

beshocked wrote:

gowales wrote:Well we all have to find a middle ground because i find most of the Pro 12 games to be lacking intensity and will, while the Aviva can sometimes be too much of a slog fest.

Agreed.

Don't agree at all............ the AP certainly was disappointing in parts last here (albeit I only get to see the edited highlights on ITV4 except for the odd game here and there), the Pro 12 is certainly getting more competitive as the regions and provinces are getting more experienced

flyhalffactory you are biased towards the Pro12 though. I wouldn't say the Pro12 is more competitive.

Beshocked
I am biased, but I havent used my personal preference here just going by the results in the AP v Pro12 over the last 2-3 seasons (there has been some heavy trouncings in the AP you must agree!!)

I agree I wouldnt say the Pro 12 is more competitive but if you look at the overall results on the weekend (Lon Irish, Lon Welsh, and Sale got hammered) you can't argue that the AP is either

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

gowales wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If you were to put EOM and dave kearney (who would have played if they werent injured) into that team it would beat most AP sides.

That's a very strong statement to make.

1.vdm
2.strauss
3.hagan
4.toner
5.denton
6.ryan
7.jenno
8.auva'a
9.boss
10.madigan
11.carr
12.macken
13.EOM
14.kearney
15.isa
Ye i think that team would do well in the AP.

It's a decent team - might do well in the B&I Cup this season.

Here's an interesting stat from the Rabo website.
In a single season, the most number of Celtic/Magners/Rabo league games that BOD has appeared in, is only 9 in total. I suppose this would suggest that he hasn't featured in many away fixtures, out of Ireland which is a shame as his name alone on a Leinster team sheet would have no doubt boosted attendances.
Not picking on BOD or Leinster as other Rabo clubs have done the same with their top names.
Rabo and Aviva links below for league appearance stats if anyone's interested.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/teams/leinster/squad.php?player=4038&includeref=dynamic

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/clubs/index.php

said this on another thread

Leinster match fixing?
This is the same Leinster that have finished in the top 4 every year since 2003–04?
They will prob finish in top 4 again this year,
Ok Leinster didn't have there internationals and lost, (you may call it a weaked team if you want, but it was the best available)
But Ulster and Munster both sent out similar teams (just as weakened as Leinsters) and won, and not one word is Hersh saying about them.

Disgrace Munster and Ulster sending out weakened teams and winning, match fixing I call it.

The Rabo is more about depth than most leagues, and thats why at the buiness end when there are a few injuries, we have players of a similar level that can come in, these players don't get to that level never playing.

Well done Scarlets good win, Leinster are well known as being slow starters.

On the topic of deliberately resting and rotating players, I posted the following in another thread.

Interesting article in the Mail on Sunday with an interview with former Connacht/Leinster hooker, Bernard Jackman, now plying his trade as a full-time breakdown and defence coach at T14 side, Grenoble.

Some excerpts:

"Grenoble, newcomers to the Top 14 this season, rested seven players from the previous week's win at Bordeaux, but there were no recriminations after the inevitable 30-13 defeat.

The strategy in the lower half of the French league is for teams to prioritise matches they think they can win to avoid relegation instead of being as competitive as possible every weekend no matter the calibre of opposition....

It's a concept alien to Jackman.... But he'll get used to it if it means his team fronts up in the games that matter most...

'I don't find it easy to adapt to', he admitted. ' Even whenI was playing at Sale and Connacht, where we weren't realistically fighting to win trophies, we still always put our best foot forward every week. There wasn't as much of this targeting of games, but I understand it."

"We're competing with Agen, Mont-de-Marsan and Bordeaux effectively, and maybeperpignan might get dragged into it but I don't think they will. The realityis we will pick and choose games to target. It's just a different mindset.'

Cardiff Dave wrote:Here's an interesting stat from the Rabo website.
In a single season, the most number of Celtic/Magners/Rabo league games that BOD has appeared in, is only 9 in total. I suppose this would suggest that he hasn't featured in many away fixtures, out of Ireland which is a shame as his name alone on a Leinster team sheet would have no doubt boosted attendances.
Not picking on BOD or Leinster as other Rabo clubs have done the same with their top names.
Rabo and Aviva links below for league appearance stats if anyone's interested.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/teams/leinster/squad.php?player=4038&includeref=dynamic

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/clubs/index.php

BOD was injured for half the season. It would be hard to get an injured player on the teamsheet.

Good point - the French rest players all the time - far more than the majority of Pro12 teams

Then why do some people keep going on about the French flogging their players?

I dont know ask them - the fact is the French are serial rotators.

They do play more games than others but that is their choice no one makes them.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/clubs/index.php

BOD was injured for half the season. It would be hard to get an injured player on the teamsheet.[/quote]

Yes, but i'm not on about last season in particular and he's been injured during previous seasons.
If you follow the rabo link, it shows that since 2001, the most league games that BOD has featured in during a single season is 9.
Again i'm not picking on Leinster. It's just that I find the stat to be surprising.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/clubs/index.php

BOD was injured for half the season. It would be hard to get an injured player on the teamsheet.

Yes, but i'm not on about last season in particular and he's been injured during previous seasons.
If you follow the rabo link, it shows that since 2001, the most league games that BOD has featured in during a single season is 9.
Again i'm not picking on Leinster. It's just that I find the stat to be surprising.[/quote]Ok sorry. I thought you were talking about last season. Ye thats an interesting stat but with all the internationals he would still play over 30 games a season, if he was fit for the whole season.

gowales wrote:Then why do some people keep going on about the French flogging their players?

I think Gethin Jenkins has started 3 games from the bench for Toulon this season.
60 mins-ish total game time so far.

If you want to compare like fo like.

Halfpenny played 10 games for the Blues last year

Foden played 19 games for Northampton

No wonder the regions are peed off

gowales wrote:If you want to compare like fo like.

Halfpenny played 10 games for the Blues last year

Foden played 19 games for Northampton

No wonder the regions are peed off

Are you on about the participation agreement with the WRU?

Does the participation agreement say that players will play more for Wales than their regions?

gowales wrote:Does the participation agreement say that players will play more for Wales than their regions?

No idea and has it been re-jigged recently? Anyway here's a summary;

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

13 internationals a year... that's insanity.

gowales wrote:13 internationals a year... that's insanity.

15 innit and the training release times;

"In future the Wales team will be able to play up to 13 international matches plus two more non-international games on an agreed tour every year with the appropriate training release times built in."

A very large number of the Leinster squad are internationals. They can't play every game for their province and play 13 internationals a year. They need to use squad players too. Which, by the way, helps them develop very good young players.

As the season goes on you'll see Leinster field a very similar team to the one that played Scarlets and they'll win. Last year they got flogged in Wales on the 1st day too. They went on to win 18, draw 1 and lose 2 more, and topped the league by 10 points. They

They played supposed "2nd string teams" throughout the year and won. They're just notoriously slow starters. But they know how to manage their resources and peak at the business end of the season. They try to win every game, and sometimes fail. Most of the time they don't. Away to Scarlets on the opening day was always gonna be difficult.

HERSH wrote:Well did they?

No they were just cráp.

Players unavailable through injury or IRFU mandated player welfare program:

Healy, Cronin, Ross, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Darcy, McFadden, R Kearney, D Kearney, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, O'Malley

We put out the best team available, it wasn't good enough, thats life.

On the subject of "marquee players" getting a lot of game time in the league, Sexton only played 8 league games last year, he also played 8 HC games and 16 international tests. BOD would have a similar demands put on him most WC years.

That's 32 games for Sexton. Which is about right. It's probably less than the number a French international would play. But it's the IRFU's perogative to look after him. And if another nation overplays its players fair play to them. Doesn't mean we should too, just to please them.

How many games a year would an Australian or New Zealand international play?

HERSH wrote:Rubbish eirebilly

It was treated as another pre season friendly by Leinster.

How is that rubbish? Sending out the best side they had available and a side that i still think is a reasonably strong one. Strength in depth is not an issue at Leinster and if you think that it was treated as a pre-season friendly then i could not disagree more.

I just prefer to give credit to Scarlets on a fine performance.

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's 32 games for Sexton. Which is about right. It's probably less than the number a French international would play. But it's the IRFU's perogative to look after him. And if another nation overplays its players fair play to them. Doesn't mean we should too, just to please them.

How many games a year would an Australian or New Zealand international play?

Assuming a player stayed fit, in NZ there's 13 or 14 internationals, 14-17 Super matches (allowing for 2 mandated rest matches) depending on how far a team goes in the playoffs plus 3 or 4 ITM cup games.

If you take McCaw's record and factor in a couple of seasons' worth of injury layoffs he's averaged about 28 matches a year.

You have to take into account actual game time.

Indeed you do.

https://www.606v2.com/t34398-the-player-watch-project

Anyone interested?

Pot Hale wrote:Indeed you do.

https://www.606v2.com/t34398-the-player-watch-project

Anyone interested?

I'm thinking that project would be huge PH. I've considered how it might be done.

1. A common data source would have to be agreed to gain consistency.
2. Each game would have to be assigned to a contributor. In normal Rabo/Jeff weeks that's twelve people. Plus International weeks when league games clash with internationals. And that includes Rabo/Jeff players playing for non-B&I teams?

That's a hell of a lot of commitment over the course of an entire season with limited benefit.

I considered using a screen-scraper to automate the process and load it into a database but that on the face of it looks fraught with difficulties and pitfalls - not to mention the writing time.

However, if you can get a band of (say 20) willing helpers, I'll join you.

eirebilly wrote:

HERSH wrote:Rubbish eirebilly

It was treated as another pre season friendly by Leinster.

How is that rubbish? Sending out the best side they had available and a side that i still think is a reasonably strong one. Strength in depth is not an issue at Leinster and if you think that it was treated as a pre-season friendly then i could not disagree more.

I just prefer to give credit to Scarlets on a fine performance.

eirebilly TOP MAN

Hersh knows he has got it wrong (again) but won't admit it, but just to emphasise how little the Hershman doth know, see the extract from Mickado who actually does know a thing or two, its quite clear Leinster put out as strong a team as poss

Re: Did Leinster throw the game on Saturday?
by Mickado Today at 5:33 pm

.Players unavailable through injury or IRFU mandated player welfare program:

Healy, Cronin, Ross, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Darcy, McFadden, R Kearney, D Kearney, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, O'Malley

We put out the best team available, it wasn't good enough, thats life.

On the subject of "marquee players" getting a lot of game time in the league, Sexton only played 8 league games last year, he also played 8 HC games and 16 international tests. BOD would have a similar demands put on him most WC years. .
Mickado


Posts: 5628
Join date: 2011-04-06
Age: 27
Location: Baile Átha Cliath

But it remains true that the majority of the experienced players amongst those selected were subbed off after half time - which I find confusing - to say the least.

Mick, like most intelligent, loyal fans, is well capable of generating excuses. Similarly sceptics may argue that there is a difference between excuses and reasons. I'm sceptical.

The bench had some very skillful and massive potential in those togs just waiting to let rip.

The Leinster bench is always used fully, and at 14-6, and could have been more if the Scarlets hadnt botched a few.... it was an ideal time to blood them.

Remember most of that Scarlet backline have little more than a seasons worth of experience, and the MOM Liam Williams is very very raw.

They (Leinster so called "academy bench) are actual squad members, and you have to play them at some time

You have to see the wood for the trees

Portnoy wrote:But it remains true that the majority of the experienced players amongst those selected were subbed off after half time - which I find confusing - to say the least.

Mick, like most intelligent, loyal fans, is well capable of generating excuses. Similarly sceptics may argue that there is a difference between excuses and reasons. I'm sceptical.

Ah sure while we're at d'aul excuses. He missed Flanagan and Gilsenan, and never mentioned our 2 late arrivals Goodman and Bent who were playing each other in the Ranfurly shield game on Saturday (crackin game) Put Cullen and Roux in there as well and we are up to 23 of a 40 man squad. Sure we'd nae chance against all those Wales internationals.

flyhalffactory wrote:The bench had some very skillful and massive potential in those togs just waiting to let rip.

The Leinster bench is always used fully, and at 14-6, and could have been more if the Scarlets hadnt botched a few.... it was an ideal time to blood them.

Remember most of that Scarlet backline have little more than a seasons worth of experience, and the MOM Liam Williams is very very raw.

They (Leinster so called "academy bench) are actual squad members, and you have to play them at some time

You have to see the wood for the trees

Then Leinster may have troubles ahead. It was only 14-6 at HT. And the side got worse. The final score may have flattered them

[quote="yappysnap"]Yes Leinster did throw the game. But there's nothing to stop them doing it and from what I can tell they really had no other options.

It's a shame but that's how these things go sometimes.

Unless someone is going to invest in them buying in prime international class players to replace every international and injured player they have out of the match day squad then you'll get a very weak side from time to time.[/quote]

Funnily enough (peculiar, not haha), most of that very same side, won the PRO12 league proper, last year. They need warming up. They are warming up. That thrashing will resolve a lot of tings.

It has done 2 years running. Having told the Truth, I'm still not happy about shoite starts. Its not acceptable for us. That must change.

It could be worser. We could be Bath. All knickers and no drawers - the whole season through. In a shoite league. One which takes itself far too seriously for its actual level.

Portnoy wrote:But it remains true that the majority of the experienced players amongst those selected were subbed off after half time - which I find confusing - to say the least.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Oh dear. Boss and ryan may miss the Dragons game this saturday. Bit of an injury crisis now.

Don't tell the English supporters on here, they are already calling our league a fix.

this also explains why those players were subbed off.

Everybody stopped reading the other thread after this post. Must have been studiously avoiding it.

Aren't we in a way getting back to this somewhat?

"Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?"

https://www.606v2.com/t21079p500-is-the-rabo-a-serious-competition

LordDowlais wrote:

So do I, when I first saw the line-ups I thought it would be a close game, but it looks as though the Scarlets have at last got some decent forwards that can set a platform for the very tallented backs they have, it is no secret that this was the problem in previous seasons, you do not have players of the caliber of North, John Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Davies, Tavis Knoyle, Andy Fenby and wonder how they are not winning as much as they should, we all know the Scarlets back division is one of the best around, they just needed some decent forwards to help out, and now it looks as though they have.

North I would possibly agree with, but are you really trying to say that the likes of Kearney Sr, O'Driscoll, Fitzgerald, Sexton, Kearney Jr, Nacewa etc are not as good as the players you list? I know which backline I would take, and it is certainly not the Scarlets'.

If you are basing this theory on the game just passed, please look at the team line ups.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Aren't we in a way getting back to this somewhat?

"Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?"

https://www.606v2.com/t21079p500-is-the-rabo-a-serious-competition

At a guess. One that won.

Careful now.

They might actually kop-on to us. Cant have that Jen. T'would only spoil the yearly fun.

There's cockey.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Portnoy wrote:But it remains true that the majority of the experienced players amongst those selected were subbed off after half time - which I find confusing - to say the least.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Oh dear. Boss and ryan may miss the Dragons game this saturday. Bit of an injury crisis now.

Don't tell the English supporters on here, they are already calling our league a fix.

this also explains why those players were subbed off.

Everybody stopped reading the other thread after this post. Must have been studiously avoiding it.

The Rabo is a "fix", but that's the way it is.
HEC qualification is virtually guaranteed for most (absolutely for the Scots and Talians) and there is no risk of relegation at all. The latter is hugely significant as we don't get teams at the bottom of the league towards the end of the season fighting for their lives to stay in the top flight.
WASPS and Newcastle last season?
Just imagine, last weekend of the Rabo season. Around HEC final time.
Ulster v Cardiff Blues for example where the former are 7th in the table hoping to secure a top 6 HEC spot and the latter need a win to stay in the top flight. Above Ulster are the O's who are one point ahead in 5th and they have to entertain Glasgow who are two points from the bottom of the league needing a single point to avoid relegation.
Cardiff Blues and Glasgow players would be srapping like the devil and the top sides would have to field their best line up to hope for a victory.
As it is now Cardiff and Glasgow would not give a monkeys. Most certainly Gatland would request that all Cardiff and O's Welsh internationals didn't play in these nothing games. No doubt Andy Robinson would request the same.

fair do's, this thread hasn't half given me some laughs!

Gibson wrote:

Careful now.

They might actually kop-on to us. Cant have that Jen.

The English and the French already have and if they breakaway then I don't blame them.
All I want to see is a level playing field when it comes to Europe. It would add much needed intensity to Rabo fixtures and elimiate the comfort zone for the rubbish teams who are as it is, simply making up the numbers.
If my team isn't good enough to qualify then so be it.
To fail should not be an option, but it is in the Rabo.

rugbydreamer wrote: fair do's, this thread hasn't half given me some laughs!