Wales Summer Tour 2013 (Japan)

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Who would you pick for Wales Summer Tour 2013? Here's my team:

1) Ryan Bevington (Ospreys)
2) Richard Hibbard ( Ospreys)
3) Samson Lee ( Scarlets)
4) Bradley Davies (Blues)
5) Lloyd Peers ( Ospreys)
6) Josh Turnbull ( Scarlets)
7) Josh Navidi ( Blues)
8) Gareth Delve ( Melbourne) ( Capt)
9) Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
10) Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
11) Eli Waker ( Ospreys)
12) Ashley Beck (Ospreys)
13) Scott Williams ( Scarlets)
14) Tom Prydie (Dragons)
15) Liam Williams (Scarlets)

16) Craig Mitchell ( Exeter Chiefs)
17) Emyr Phillips ( Scarlets)
18) Jake Ball ( Scarlets)
19) Jon Evans ( Dragons)
20) Steve Shingler ( London Irish)
21) Rhys Patchell ( Blues)

Other players I'd like to see go on tour would be Adam Hughes ( Dragons) Hanno Dirksen (Ospreys) (will he be qualified by then?) Lewis Evans (Dragons) Richard Kelly (Scarlets)

Players not Considered

The rest of the current Welsh squad who possibly (slim I know on current form) might make the lions tour.

Injured

Rhys Priestland ( Scarlets)
Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys)
Ian Evans ( Ospreys)

The point that it didnt unearth a great number of future welsh stars despite being a development tour.

PSW - In defense of that tour, I guess the problem was it was going to be hard for the players on that tour to be able to push into the main international squad where we had so many players away with the Lions ready to come back and block the places. I believe that the Welsh Lions players of that year could have formed a team looking like;

Byrne, Halfpenny, Roberts, Hook, Williams, Jones, Phillips;
Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, AW Jones, R Jones (moved to fill the hole in the second row), A Powell, M Williams, Shanklin (no other forward options sadly).

Sorry yes its getting really confusing now, that was the point I was admitting was incorrect.

The tour did serve its purpose, certainly far beter than Englands did in building a team toward the world cup. Only 7 of the 22 that played in Salta endded up in the WC squad....although I did miss previously a certain C Robshaw was capped there!

I think the main problem is, especially with modern rugby, that people are expecting there to be a new golden generation every few seasons. For example there are a fair few names that have been mentioned on this thread that are good young players, however in order to get their shot they will need to oust the current incumbent of the shirt, who in many cases is a good young player. I think sometimes people forget how young some of the current crop of interenationals are. Jamie Roberts (26) and Mike Phillips (30) are the old men of the welsh back line at the moment and then we have well established players like George North (20) with other 25 caps. For the young players who are going on the summer tour to be able to break into the squad, these established players will either need serios drop in form or, god forbid, a rather nasty injury. I would probably say that for some of the boys who will tour in the summer it may well be their one chance to show what they can do, before another crop of youngsters come up and threaten their own places on the fringes.

I also think that with the amount of rugby played and it's intensity these days, burn out is much more common - or maybe not even burn out but the number of players playing with injuries, or playing without adequate recovery time. (such as Ryan Jones, who was amazing in 2008, but without time to recover properly after the Lions tour went into a 2 season slump before being dropped by Wales and losing the Ospreys captaincy allowed him time to recover and rediscover his form).

As such players will lose their form, or be unable (coz of carrying an injury) to play to the high standard they previously displayed. Fans will then demand they get dropped for the next promising young player, even though the original player may still be young and able to play very highly given a break.

Following this weekend round of HC rugby think James King possibly might have played himself onto this tour. Also I've been a bit of a critic of Ken Owens recently, but he had a huge game against the chiefs yesterday.

Another question from this weekend rugby is how does 3 fits into 2? North, Cuthbert and Walker. Shame can't get all three into the welsh backline.

pioden gorllewin wrote:Following this weekend round of HC rugby think James King possibly might have played himself onto this tour. Also I've been a bit of a critic of Ken Owens recently, but he had a huge game against the chiefs yesterday.

Another question from this weekend rugby is how does 3 fits into 2? North, Cuthbert and Walker. Shame can't get all three into the welsh backline.

Walker has improved a lot, he was dire last year and embarrassed in his first HC game. His attacking game has improved, but he defence is really dire. Liam Williams is far ahead of Walker.

Guys like Dan Evans and Tom Prydie are also ahead of Walker in the pecking order, but as usual will probably get overlooked because they play too far east.

I really hope Prydie, Walker amd Li Williams will all go. Williams should be ok as is already sort of establishing himself as part of the set up.

I agree, those lads have exceeded expectations all season.

As I mentioned early in the thread there are a number of young stars who deserve a chance to prove their skills, as well as gain some valuable experience.

If North isn't on the Lions tour then he needs a summer of rest and should be no where near this tour...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If North isn't on the Lions tour then he needs a summer of rest and should be no where near this tour...

I would go so far as to say that no player who was a first choice starter in the GS win, or the RWC semi finals shoul go on this tour.

Maes,

I agree in the most part but I feel that if say Lydiate doesn't make the Lions then a bit of gametime wouldn't do any harm.

Well said Maes - Beds I see what you mean with Lydiate, though he may benefit more from the rest. If he does go then he shouldn't play every game, and should be well rested between the games he does play.

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If North isn't on the Lions tour then he needs a summer of rest and should be no where near this tour...

I would go so far as to say that no player who was a first choice starter in the GS win, or the RWC semi finals shoul go on this tour.

I think that's a really good idea. Wales are in a position where they've got a lot of young talent, but are plagued by injuries at the moment. So much is expected of their young lads, especially physically. North for example is still so young, but so much is expected from his body. For such a young lad, he's already carrying a lot of weight. Like you guys say, he needs rest. Warburton too.

It's a decent tour Wales have got coming up in the summer, and an excellent chance to blood a few younger guys and see what they can do, while giving their current crop of young starters a much needed rest.

Will we not be seen as disrespectful and arrogant for taking a 2nd string side to Japan? They gave France a good game in the World Cup. Wouldn't surprise me too much if they beat a Wales side that is only made up of development players. Could be risky not having some experienced heads around who have not made the Lions tour.

I don't think you'll be seen as arrogant Griff, but it's all about balance-as you say. A few experienced players here and there would be essential.

If you're perceived as arrogant, I don't think it really matters! I think a lot of supporters would see it as sensible, proactive thinking; looking to the future and all that.

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think you'll be seen as arrogant Griff, but it's all about balance-as you say. A few experienced players here and there would be essential.

If you're perceived as arrogant, I don't think it really matters! I think a lot of supporters would see it as sensible, proactive thinking; looking to the future and all that.

I don't think it is arrogant, if the Japanese do then they will have to try and beat us well to prove a point. I hope that we take a very inexperienced team, we need them to exposed to as much International rugby as possible increase our strength and depth.

With us not having an A Sided then these so called 'lesser tours' have to be used as a development tour to some degree.

I do think that there should be some experience in there though rather than just a squad full of untried players.

Is it actually a full Welsh tour caps awarwded etc?

bedfordwelsh wrote:With us not having an A Sided then these so called 'lesser tours' have to be used as a development tour to some degree.

I do think that there should be some experience in there though rather than just a squad full of untried players.

Is it actually a full Welsh tour caps awarwded etc?

I would say that the most experience needed would be from players like Ken Owens, Scott Andrews, Ryan Bevington, Aaron Shingler, Harry Robinson, Liam Williams. They have all had a year or two in the Welsh squad. Beyond that we really need to blood lads like Samson Lee, Tom Haberfield, Rhys Patchell, Rhodri Williams, Ross Jones, Adam Hughes, Josh Nalvidi, James King, Lloyd Peers, Richard Kelly soon.

It's a strange one and difficult to judge exactly how best to play it.

Wales could dodge a bullet by send a 'weakened' and if/when that side is beaten it won't be such a damaging blow to morale that it would be if a stronger side struggled.

However, after the recent run of defeats and a potentially poor 6Ns Wales might be best placed to just try and get some wins on the board.

Yh Maes I agree with that sort of experience, I have said Lydiate would gain from gametime (if not in Oz) but also like Priest said he might also benefit from a good recovery from injury.

I also don't think it will do any harm for players like Cuthbert and Tipuric to go.

maestegmafia wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't think you'll be seen as arrogant Griff, but it's all about balance-as you say. A few experienced players here and there would be essential.

If you're perceived as arrogant, I don't think it really matters! I think a lot of supporters would see it as sensible, proactive thinking; looking to the future and all that.

I don't think it is arrogant, if the Japanese do then they will have to try and beat us well to prove a point. I hope that we take a very inexperienced team, we need them to exposed to as much International rugby as possible increase our strength and depth.

Exactly. I think it's actually a really good choice of tour for the Welsh squad this summer. Could be a great chance to test out some of the young Welsh backs that are emerging. Harder ground could really let them flourish.

Fair play to you, Pioden, you're the only poster who's mentioned Jon Evans.

Jon Evans is a good call.

If three scrum halves I would look at him, Habberfield and Rhodri Williams.

Though they are likely to take Williams Knoyle and Webb.

I'd def say Jon Evans is above most/all other young SH's in Wales, personally I'd go for some experience and have Knoyle in there as well - something like Evans, Habberfield and Knoyle (wait for Morgannwg...) and think Davies is much above Williams - Williams may be tearing up the Prem, but hasn't look anything special for the Scarlets, while Davies has done very well for the Scarlets last year and been good this year.

I would like to see Davies go as I think he's been the form (Welsh) 9 in the Rabo.

I would however guess (like most) that Williams Knoyle and Webb will go.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'd def say Jon Evans is above most/all other young SH's in Wales, personally I'd go for some experience and have Knoyle in there as well - something like Evans, Habberfield and Knoyle (wait for Morgannwg...) and think Davies is much above Williams - Williams may be tearing up the Prem, but hasn't look anything special for the Scarlets, while Davies has done very well for the Scarlets last year and been good this year.

OMG.

I think Rhodri Williams will be in line before Habberfield but both are great prospects.

Williams is a good attacking player, Habberfield looks more tactical. Both are fast and good distributors of the ball. Much better than what we have playing for Wales right now IMO. If these two keep progressing that could be our two scrum-halves for the forseeable the future.

Yes i agree Morg,

Thats why i think it is important we give these lads time and opportunity.

What is the fasination with the 'need' to blood kids who have yet to really show at regional level? At the moment the regions have a good handfull of young scrum halves currently getting regular game time for their regions. Bar Kahn Fotuali'i I can't think of any NWQ scrum halves at the regions, so I would have though that the lads who are keeping Rhodri Williams and Habberfeild out of the regional sides should get a crack first surely.

Where has Lloyd Peers come from? He seems to have crept in under the radar. I wasn't really aware of him before he was called into the AI squad.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:What is the fasination with the 'need' to blood kids who have yet to really show at regional level? At the moment the regions have a good handfull of young scrum halves currently getting regular game time for their regions. Bar Kahn Fotuali'i I can't think of any NWQ scrum halves at the regions, so I would have though that the lads who are keeping Rhodri Williams and Habberfeild out of the regional sides should get a crack first surely.

+ 1. I think this is part of our problem in Wales. Players should be 'blooded' in the pro club game, not the national game. International honours should be a reward for being awesome at pro club level, not to 'have a look' at someone! Get them in the training environment, of course. But for me, we should be giving caps to the best players in the pro game. Tom Prydie, for example, is playing really well for the Dragons and I can see him playing a part in the Wales set up in the future. However, he was capped by Wales at 17 or so just because he had potential. It was not based on any regional form. That sort of sends the wrong message to both current internationals and aspiring players - you could be good so you're in. Even with a number of welsh players away for the Lions there should still be enough players over 4 regions and 'overseas' who are putting there hands up for a tour spot. If they are then they've earned it. If they're not playing regional or pro club rugby then they haven't earned it and they shouldn't tour, IMO.

SarletSpiderman makes a good point about Rhodri Williams. He looks great at semi pro level. As did Prydie, Kristian Phillips, Mike Poole at the Dragons, etc. But get them in the pro game and it's a different ball game (thinking specifically about Phillips and Poole plus others I can't remember at the moment!). The welsh prem shouldn't be the baromoeter for international selection because the standard and level is too far below international rugby. It's not fair on the player, the fans or the international team. It should be like a conveyor belt, ideally, going from club rugby up to semi pro up to regional and then up to international. If you shine at each level then you can move up. We shouldn't be missing out on a 'step' in the process as there is no proof of the ability to perform at the missed out level.

I don't agree that a lack of regional game time should preclude players from getting called into the national side if the national coaches think they're good enough. If they're better than other candidates, give them the nod.

I'd rather see a genuinely exciting player given a first cap than see a steady Eddie play just because he's been around for longer.

I think the point is how can a national coach seriously assess a player whos never played proper pro rugby?

If the other players are keeping them out of match day squads are they likely to be that m,uch better?

If the nationals coaches want to spend time with them and assess their attitude etc is that not what age group and A rugby is for (yeah Ok Wales dont have an A side)? Not that the senior coaching staff will have a chance to assess these kids anyway since theyll be off with the Lions.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't agree that a lack of regional game time should preclude players from getting called into the national side if the national coaches think they're good enough. If they're better than other candidates, give them the nod.

I'd rather see a genuinely exciting player given a first cap than see a steady Eddie play just because he's been around for longer.

I know what you're saying, but where are they assessed as being exciting? At semi pro level? In training? I respect a pro coach's knowledge of the game and a player's potential over mine, but often players are thrown in without proving themselves at the next best level we have. I personally don't see that as a great way of selecting players.

It's not the ideal way of selecting players Griff, I agree with you there; but if a player appears to the national coaches to have that special something, then I'm happy for him to be given a shot.

Isn't this another guide to the fact we need an A Side back up and running then at least these guys wouldn't be thrown straight into the main test arena.

I've said before that I'd be more than happy for us to sacrifice our Sevens side (or to cut funding to it) in favour of bringing back an A side.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've said before that I'd be more than happy for us to sacrifice our Sevens side (or to cut funding to it) in favour of bringing back an A side.

LP,

Definately, if it was a choice of an A Side over the 7s then I would take the A Side everytime.

I definitely think we need an A side, but I don't see that we need to cut anything. It can't cost that much to run an A team, can it?! Plus, I reckon that they would generate a fair bit of income. Even if held at regional venues I reckon they'd get near capacity crowds.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've said before that I'd be more than happy for us to sacrifice our Sevens side (or to cut funding to it) in favour of bringing back an A side.

LP,

Definately, if it was a choice of an A Side over the 7s then I would take the A Side everytime.

7s for me.

Rhodri Williams and Habberfield have both played HEC rugby. Williams was at Scrum half when the Scarlets beat Saints last year away.

Habberfield has had injuries not much luck yet this year but returning to rugby now.

But was Rhodri Williams being talked up for Wales last year? As I see it, all of the hype has come from his Welsh Prem performances.

And IMO he was awful for the Scarlets last year even though he played in some big games.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:And IMO he was awful for the Scarlets last year even though he played in some big games.

He was not that bad, and prob better than Cawdor, but I was glad to see Knoyle back (and Cawdor regain some form).

Cawdor ?

Gareth Davies is known as Cawdor down in the west (his papa owns Cawdor Cars, I believe).

I'd say he's nowhere near Gareth Davies (Cawdor) yet and needs to improve his decision making, kicking and composure a lot at pro level, though of course that will naturally come as he develops and gets more exposure.

I felt G Davies form was v. good last season (leading for a few calls for him to be in the Wales squad), but has been a little shaky this year