Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

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29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

Credit where it's due, Kidney has avoided the old womanly option that I have long believed to be his default setting. With almost half the first-choice side absent, this is about as good as I could have hoped for. I'm certain that the pack has enough edge to unsettle Scotland and we'll just have to see about the new midfield. At least they have their chance. Just picking Jackson over O'Gara would have made the selection something I could live with.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:The IRFU will look for a successor who is absolutely not his own man. Thats why O'Shea cleared off, Gatland got the chop and they are grooming Ruddock and Foley to take over.

O'Shea never cleared off. He was never here in the first place.

You think O'Shea would work for the RFU because could continue to be "his his own man"

Wouldnt want him anyway. He is over rated. Good director of rugby maybe but I'd prefer someone more hands on and creative like Joe.

We have the least imaginative, innovative team in world rugby.

rodders wrote:I'm delighted for Ulster players to get picked but only for the right reasons.

Marshall is a great call. 100% behind that.

Tom Court is in great form but how does he leapfrog Kilcoyne? Even Toners provincial coach doesn't pick him for big games because of his scrummaging so its not childish to say that Tom will be up against it with him binding behind him.

Tactical selection for Court (scrummaging). Ryan & Toner are the only lineout caller options.

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

Marshall & PJ are used to playing with each other. The fact that there are two young players starting takes a bit of the spotlight intensity off Paddy as well.

What ever happened to Ed O'Donoghue?

GunsGerms wrote:What ever happened to Ed O'Donoghue?

He's off in Oz, playing for the QLD Reds...

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What ever happened to Ed O'Donoghue?

He's off in Oz, playing for the QLD Reds...

Is he any good. Likely to play for Ireland/Ireland A again? we dont have great locks.

No way. He rarely played fgor Leinster and Ulsters current 1st-5th choice locks are currently better than he was.

Well off the mark.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Credit where it's due, Kidney has avoided the old womanly option that I have long believed to be his default setting. With almost half the first-choice side absent, this is about as good as I could have hoped for. I'm certain that the pack has enough edge to unsettle Scotland and we'll just have to see about the new midfield. At least they have their chance. Just picking Jackson over O'Gara would have made the selection something I could live with.

I really don't get why people think this. There was no apparent reason to drop Stringer for the HCup QF in 2007. Munster got out of a group that contained a Joe Schmidt coached Clermont with Strings at scrumhalf. Then there was Foley - Kidney's former captain & good friend and who was about to retire - he was dropped out of the 22 having been in it up to that. Payne/Hurley wasn't a bit call as Payne wanted to retire.

I don't think so... Didn't make it with Leinster when they were crying out for locks...

I'm actually not that worried about the lock situation in Ireland, although it seems as though the newest batch of locks will be from Ulster. Tuohy, Ryan, McCarthy, Henderson, Stevenson, Nagle and the younger guys like O'Connor, Simpson, Qualter, Hayes, Marshall

Stringer was possibly the only semi-daring call that I can remember from Deccie, who for me, reacts to events, rather than shaping them, Sin. And since he's become an international coach? You'd have to think that picking Jackson counts as his most "audacious gamble" yet. I doubt that I'll be seeing Kidney at Cheltenham in three weeks, that's for sure.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Another gem courtesy of Mickado on twitter, 5 Ulster, 5 Leinster, 5 Munster in the starting XV...

Too many Munster players.

Ruuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

The only time Ireland was any use was when it was predominently made of Ulster players (mid-'80s) and Munster players ('00s). The rest of the time Ireland was dominated by Leinster players and we won nothing.

Sin é wrote:

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

Marshall & PJ are used to playing with each other. The fact that there are two young players starting takes a bit of the spotlight intensity off Paddy as well.

Well by that logic the best option would be to pick a whole team of debutants that way the spotlight would be on all of them?

Ah ok Courts a tactical one because obviously we were building for the future against Wales and England but now scrummaging ability is more important because we are playing Scotland and the GS is gone.

clivemcl wrote:No way. He rarely played fgor Leinster and Ulsters current 1st-5th choice locks are currently better than he was.

Well off the mark.

I wouldn't put McComb above O'Donoghue but I get the point.

O'Donoghue is not even remotely good enough.

Also embarressed himeself on more than one occassion by drinking too much sauce.

Actually a nice friendly bloke - when sober

geoff998rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote:No way. He rarely played fgor Leinster and Ulsters current 1st-5th choice locks are currently better than he was.

Well off the mark.

I wouldn't put McComb above O'Donoghue but I get the point.

O'Donoghue is not even remotely good enough.

Also embarressed himeself on more than one occassion by drinking too much sauce.

Actually a nice friendly bloke - when sober

To be honest Geoff I can say a lot of the ulster boys embarrass themselves due to drink, I work as a doorman when at home back in Belfast, one of the bars I work in is one they frequent as a group quite regularly. They may be big lads but they are lightweights when it comes to drinking. Apart from jar ad Payne, that boy drinks Grey goose like its water.

The way I look at it is, they are in their own free time, so they can embarrass themselves as much as the next person with drink in them, as long as they don't take it too far.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Stringer was possibly the only semi-daring call that I can remember from Deccie, who for me, reacts to events, rather than shaping them, Sin. And since he's become an international coach? You'd have to think that picking Jackson counts as his most "audacious gamble" yet. I doubt that I'll be seeing Kidney at Cheltenham in three weeks, that's for sure.

Foley was a big call for that Hcup final. Particularly as he had Keith Earls on the bench for the experience for his first or second Munster cap and probably had no intention of using him if at all possible. Paul Warwick was also on the bench and could cover most positions in the backs.

Selecting Murray for the world cup was daring.

Selecting Zebo at fullback was daring (having never played there for his 2nd international cap).

Kidney isn't a gambler though - he takes very calculated risks (he has a degree in mathematics and Masters in Psychology).

Sin é wrote:
Selecting Murray for the world cup was daring.

It certainly was. So was continuing to select him when he was absolute cack for about 10 games. Mind you he is from Munster though.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

Marshall & PJ are used to playing with each other. The fact that there are two young players starting takes a bit of the spotlight intensity off Paddy as well.

Well by that logic the best option would be to pick a whole team of debutants that way the spotlight would be on all of them?

Ah ok Courts a tactical one because obviously we were building for the future against Wales and England but now scrummaging ability is more important because we are playing Scotland and the GS is gone.

Picking a whole team of debutants would be a bit extreme and would in itself cause a sensation Nah, two is good.

What has changed is that Court is starting ahead of Healy. Kilcoyne's situation hasn't changed. (Court's familiarty with Best would also be a factor).

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Selecting Murray for the world cup was daring.

It certainly was. So was continuing to select him when he was absolute cack for about 10 games. Mind you he is from Munster though.

So how do you expect for him to build up a partnership with Sexton which would have been a big part of why Sexton was cack.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Selecting Murray for the world cup was daring.

It certainly was. So was continuing to select him when he was absolute cack for about 10 games. Mind you he is from Munster though.

So how do you expect for him to build up a partnership with Sexton which would have been a big part of why Sexton was cack.

I agree Sexton struggled at times because Murray was so bad and before that he had TOL. No wonder he is off to france.

GunsGerms wrote:
I agree Sexton struggled at times because Murray was so bad and before that he had TOL. No wonder he is off to france.

I heard Sexton is so glad to be shot of TOL that he is getting the Ferry from Rosslare just in case the plane travels over London Irish airspace.

I always thought Kidney saw Kilcoyne as more of an impact sub, a guy to come on and cause a bit of mayhem, I never really considered Kilcoyne a good starting option for Ireland when we have guys like Healy and Court who can do the basics at the beginning and then allow Kilcoyne do his thing.

Toner is in there as a lineout caller.

SOOOOOO EXCITED TO SEE LUKE MARSHALL

BelfastDickVet wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote:No way. He rarely played fgor Leinster and Ulsters current 1st-5th choice locks are currently better than he was.

Well off the mark.

I wouldn't put McComb above O'Donoghue but I get the point.

O'Donoghue is not even remotely good enough.

Also embarressed himeself on more than one occassion by drinking too much sauce.

Actually a nice friendly bloke - when sober

To be honest Geoff I can say a lot of the ulster boys embarrass themselves due to drink, I work as a doorman when at home back in Belfast, one of the bars I work in is one they frequent as a group quite regularly. They may be big lads but they are lightweights when it comes to drinking. Apart from jar ad Payne, that boy drinks Grey goose like its water.

The way I look at it is, they are in their own free time, so they can embarrass themselves as much as the next person with drink in them, as long as they don't take it too far.

I think the issue with O'Donoghue wasn't the drinking, it was the showing up to training having been drinking the night before and the like. After he left Ulster he tried and failed to find a home in Leinster and in France, just didn't have the work ethic.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I always thought Kidney saw Kilcoyne as more of an impact sub, a guy to come on and cause a bit of mayhem, I never really considered Kilcoyne a good starting option for Ireland when we have guys like Healy and Court who can do the basics at the beginning and then allow Kilcoyne do his thing.

Toner is in there as a lineout caller.

SOOOOOO EXCITED TO SEE LUKE MARSHALL

Haha, the Marshall fanboyism is strong with this one. I agree with your assessment of Kilcoyne as an impact sub. Kidneys idea of an impact sub is a strange thing though. Seems to be like; alright, it's the 78th minute. Go cause an impact!

Sin é wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:Credit where it's due, Kidney has avoided the old womanly option that I have long believed to be his default setting. With almost half the first-choice side absent, this is about as good as I could have hoped for. I'm certain that the pack has enough edge to unsettle Scotland and we'll just have to see about the new midfield. At least they have their chance. Just picking Jackson over O'Gara would have made the selection something I could live with.

I really don't get why people think this. There was no apparent reason to drop Stringer for the HCup QF in 2007. Munster got out of a group that contained a Joe Schmidt coached Clermont with Strings at scrumhalf. Then there was Foley - Kidney's former captain & good friend and who was about to retire - he was dropped out of the 22 having been in it up to that. Payne/Hurley wasn't a bit call as Payne wanted to retire.

Actually agree. Steady Eddie was steady, steady, steady... You knew what you were going to get.

Kidney is more like... steady, steady, steady- WILDCARD! He's always capable of pulling a rabbit out of the hat. Not much use at a dogfight, but still

Eddie was his own man. He had a plan and stuck to it regardless of whether everone else thought he was wrong.

Kidney lacks the same conviction and every so often the media turns against him so he does a u-turn. He is prone to kneejerk reactions under pressure rather than proactive and logical selection patterns.

rodders wrote:Eddie was his own man. He had a plan and stuck to it regardless of whether everone else thought he was wrong.

Kidney lacks the same conviction and every so often the media turns against him so he does a u-turn. He is prone to kneejerk reactions under pressure rather than proactive and logical selection patterns.

Most the media would have supported ROG starting What media said he shouldn't start ROG?

(Tony Ward, Shane Horgan, Emmet Byrne, Alan Quinlan said otherwise and Thornley & most other pundits said nothing).

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I always thought Kidney saw Kilcoyne as more of an impact sub, a guy to come on and cause a bit of mayhem, I never really considered Kilcoyne a good starting option for Ireland when we have guys like Healy and Court who can do the basics at the beginning and then allow Kilcoyne do his thing.

Toner is in there as a lineout caller.

SOOOOOO EXCITED TO SEE LUKE MARSHALL

Haha, the Marshall fanboyism is strong with this one. I agree with your assessment of Kilcoyne as an impact sub. Kidneys idea of an impact sub is a strange thing though. Seems to be like; alright, it's the 78th minute. Go cause an impact!

Mentally so, I first saw him at the first game at the new Lansdowne, I just knew he was gonna make it. Noticed Gilroy as well but don't think he will be anywhere near the player Marshall will be.

His skills are outstanding and his decision making is simply excellent, added to that one of his legs is the width of two of mine.
I really do think he is going to be something very special

Look how many times he is used in this clip productively
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP0xfxEC0PE

JmD wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote:No way. He rarely played fgor Leinster and Ulsters current 1st-5th choice locks are currently better than he was.

Well off the mark.

I wouldn't put McComb above O'Donoghue but I get the point.

O'Donoghue is not even remotely good enough.

Also embarressed himeself on more than one occassion by drinking too much sauce.

Actually a nice friendly bloke - when sober

To be honest Geoff I can say a lot of the ulster boys embarrass themselves due to drink, I work as a doorman when at home back in Belfast, one of the bars I work in is one they frequent as a group quite regularly. They may be big lads but they are lightweights when it comes to drinking. Apart from jar ad Payne, that boy drinks Grey goose like its water.

The way I look at it is, they are in their own free time, so they can embarrass themselves as much as the next person with drink in them, as long as they don't take it too far.

I think the issue with O'Donoghue wasn't the drinking, it was the showing up to training having been drinking the night before and the like. After he left Ulster he tried and failed to find a home in Leinster and in France, just didn't have the work ethic.

Spot on

Also was out of order at one team event and I believe made a plank of himself at an Irish squad get together.

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Notch wrote:On one level, I'm an Ireland rugby fan because I'm Irish. But on another level, I am a ginger rugby player fan because I'm ginger. So, go on Harley and Jackson! Stand Up for the True Celts

I knew there was something about ye, Notch. I'm assuming that the collar and cuffs match?

A lady never tells.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I always thought Kidney saw Kilcoyne as more of an impact sub, a guy to come on and cause a bit of mayhem, I never really considered Kilcoyne a good starting option for Ireland when we have guys like Healy and Court who can do the basics at the beginning and then allow Kilcoyne do his thing.

Toner is in there as a lineout caller.

SOOOOOO EXCITED TO SEE LUKE MARSHALL

Haha, the Marshall fanboyism is strong with this one. I agree with your assessment of Kilcoyne as an impact sub. Kidneys idea of an impact sub is a strange thing though. Seems to be like; alright, it's the 78th minute. Go cause an impact!

Mentally so, I first saw him at the first game at the new Lansdowne, I just knew he was gonna make it. Noticed Gilroy as well but don't think he will be anywhere near the player Marshall will be.

His skills are outstanding and his decision making is simply excellent, added to that one of his legs is the width of two of mine.
I really do think he is going to be something very special

I agree, since then I've just been waiting to see what these guys can do. Jackson was brilliant that day too. Talent to burn.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I always thought Kidney saw Kilcoyne as more of an impact sub, a guy to come on and cause a bit of mayhem, I never really considered Kilcoyne a good starting option for Ireland when we have guys like Healy and Court who can do the basics at the beginning and then allow Kilcoyne do his thing.

Toner is in there as a lineout caller.

SOOOOOO EXCITED TO SEE LUKE MARSHALL

Haha, the Marshall fanboyism is strong with this one. I agree with your assessment of Kilcoyne as an impact sub. Kidneys idea of an impact sub is a strange thing though. Seems to be like; alright, it's the 78th minute. Go cause an impact!

Mentally so, I first saw him at the first game at the new Lansdowne, I just knew he was gonna make it. Noticed Gilroy as well but don't think he will be anywhere near the player Marshall will be.

His skills are outstanding and his decision making is simply excellent, added to that one of his legs is the width of two of mine.
I really do think he is going to be something very special

I agree, since then I've just been waiting to see what these guys can do. Jackson was brilliant that day too. Talent to burn.

I remember Gilroy scored the first try in the stadium, thinking he might fall into obscurity and that it would be a great trivia question for the future, little did I know he would be starting for Ireland within the next few years.

Gilroy was good that day as was Henderson, but I was awstruck with Marshall. he was simply in another league physically and on top of that he had skills far beyond anyone else on the pitch, it frequently took 4 lads to tackle him and even then a lot of the time he got the ball away.

I played a game a few years back for Trinity J3 against Kew Occassionals at scrumhalf. The opposing scrumhalf was ex All Black Mark Robinson. Needless to say he danced all over me.

That is the only other time I have seen such a gulf in class in one game of rugby between individuals as opposed to collectives.

Marshall has class, no doubt about that. He offers something different to D'Arcy and if Ireland want to play a fast paced game then a more creative ball playing 12 is important. Maybe Marshall will help BOD and vice versa.

Its much better having a creative Marshall at 12 and Earls on the wing. Earls only needs half a gap so why he insists on playing in the center is puzzling as most times he gets the ball theres no space.

Great news for Munster fans and rugby fans in general looking through these pictures. The Ginger Monster appears to be back in full training.

That is a pretty exciting looking ireland team.

I am really looking forward to this.

Has PJ ever been MOM for Ulster?
For his sake I hope our 1 - 9 make his job easy. Otherwise He may have to grab the game by the scruff of the neck which could be outside his comfort zone.

Spoiler:

For anyone worried about Paddy Jackson on his first real cap. Just look at the cut of Stringer and O'Gara on their debuts. They needed Mick Galway to babysit them.

Paddy will be fine.

dw7 wrote:Has PJ ever been MOM for Ulster?
For his sake I hope our 1 - 9 make his job easy.

YES

Can anyone recall the last time 5 Ulster based players were in the starting 15?

Someone on a Munsterforum mentioned a game against Rumania (1999) where 6 were playing but 2 of those playing in England at the time

ROG hasnt aged much.

Stlll has the baby face.

westisbest wrote:ROG hasnt aged much.

Stlll has the baby face.

Same hair cut too.

I am happy to see Earls back on the team. Despite all the criticism he gets here I think he is an awesome player, a real try scoring threat.

We often hear about how his passing is too poor to be a centre, blah, blah. I don't buy it. It think with a run at 13 he would be fine. He is great on the wing too. The only issue I have with Earls is he definitely suffers from confidence. He has admitted it himself.

I know he is doing regular sessions with Enda McNulty and I think once he addresses this and develops his strength of character and becomes a voice in the team I think he will be incredible.

Hope he has a great game. I predict he will score first try.

GunsGerms wrote:I am happy to see Earls back on the team. Despite all the criticism he gets here I think he is an awesome player, a real try scoring threat.

We often hear about how his passing is too poor to be a centre, blah, blah. I don't buy it. It think with a run at 13 he would be fine. He is great on the wing too. The only issue I have with Earls is he definitely suffers from confidence. He has admitted it himself.

I know he is doing regular sessions with Enda McNulty and I think once he addresses this and develops his strength of character and becomes a voice in the team I think he will be incredible.

Hope he has a great game. I predict he will score first try.

In the game or for Ireland?

GunsGerms wrote:I am happy to see Earls back on the team. Despite all the criticism he gets here I think he is an awesome player, a real try scoring threat.

We often hear about how his passing is too poor to be a centre, blah, blah. I don't buy it. It think with a run at 13 he would be fine. He is great on the wing too. The only issue I have with Earls is he definitely suffers from confidence. He has admitted it himself.

I know he is doing regular sessions with Enda McNulty and I think once he addresses this and develops his strength of character and becomes a voice in the team I think he will be incredible.

Hope he has a great game. I predict he will score first try.

I think most people would agree with you that he is a fine rugby player but for both Munster and Ireland he has not proved to be a consistently good enough 13. Too often he takes too much out of the ball or when he does make the right choice, draws the defender and makes space for his outside man the pass is often woeful.
I think he is Irelands best left wing and can adequately cover fullback but he just has not convinced at outside centre. Would love to see him concentrate on the wing where his pace and footwork are used to best effect.
The speed will not last forever and once it starts to wane a more permanent move to fullback is probably the path he will take. For the same reason I think his place in the national team will remain only as long as the pace as there are better options at 13 and the likes of Gilroy, O'Halloran, D Kearney and Zebo as competition who are that bit younger. He will not be a Tommy Bowe or Shaggy type winger who can compensate for pace with size and offloading.

Paddy Jackson is the ginger Shane Williams!

Earls was interviewed on Off the Ball last night. He spoke about his confidence issues - said that he had none until he was about 21 when everyone started telling him he wasn't this or he wasn't that and he listened to them. He is talking to two sports psychologists now (Munster one and Ireland one).

Tony Ward is backing Earls to replace Brian O'Driscoll (and he would know all the up-and-coming young 13s). Interesting that he say he "cannot see any natural wing traits in Earls."

Whatever about having the game to replace Brian O'Driscoll, I doubt very much if he has the capacity to deal with the heavy criticism he will get for not being Brian O'Driscoll.

Lewis Stevenson has not been released by Ireland - this suggests to me they are still not certain Ryan will make it

Sin é wrote:Earls was interviewed on Off the Ball last night. He spoke about his confidence issues - said that he had none until he was about 21 when everyone started telling him he wasn't this or he wasn't that and he listened to them. He is talking to two sports psychologists now (Munster one and Ireland one).

Tony Ward is backing Earls to replace Brian O'Driscoll (and he would know all the up-and-coming young 13s). Interesting that he say he "cannot see any natural wing traits in Earls."

Whatever about having the game to replace Brian O'Driscoll, I doubt very much if he has the capacity to deal with the heavy criticism he will get for not being Brian O'Driscoll.

I am convinced Earls is the man to replace Drico too.

Genuinely feel sorry for anyone having to replace His BODness.

The younger fans won't realise it yet but we aren't going to see his like for another 20 years. And when we do, he probably won't be Irish.