The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[SecretFly]

Yeah..in short..that's what happened

[Triangulation]

In the actual recorded interview Rowntree stated that "he wanted clarification in the calls to help his coaching"

Please note CLARIFICATION - yet again we get a lazy headline.

Bearing in mind he is the Forwards coach for the Lions I would have thought most B&I fans would be supportive of this.

Walsh effectively refused to discuss the matter post match, so that leaves the only option available to be speaking to the IRB refs boss, as they are doing.

Ideally this woul dhave stayed private - but with wall to wall media coverage that English sports teams have to live under, that was always going to be difficult.

+1

Anyone climbing on board to throw stones at England are idiots plain and simple. As Rowntree has said it is his job to teach England and Lions forwards how to make the most of their talents.

How can he or anyone do this if the decisions being made on field do not make sense to that coach?

England have said all along that Wales were deserved winners although England haters pretend not to have read or heard this.

[maestegmafia]

Its obvcious what happened anyway,

gatland and walsh are chums and Gatland needied an excuse to maximise welsh lions and minimize english..

Why would Gatland want to do that?

Even though i know you are joking, it seems to be a common premise by many England fans that Gatland wants welsh players on the tour.

Gatland has been chosen to coach a team to beat the Wallabies, national bias will not be any part of it. Why would it be. He's not even Welsh.

[mystiroakey]

Well it was a joke based on all that rubbish banded about that it would make his job harder by picking loads of English..

[mystiroakey]

BUt hey I am no professional comedian. So....

[flyhalffactory]

Saint-Andre should write a report to the IRB regarding that dubious try that england scored which allowed them a shot at the grand slam, bet rowntree wrote a glowing report for that game.

Great point

The point had nothing to do with this post at all so is quite irrelevant.

Rowntree has every reason to clarify the reffing for at least three very good reasons

1. Wales on the first scrum hit went early and didn't get pinged , the very week before Scotland got pinged for doing the same. Now you could argue that McBryde has done his homework and changed the pack dynamics around to suit the opposition or you could argue gamesmanship and getting away with murder. The point is the reffing decisions are inconsistent and going forward Rowntree would like to know the interpretation of the ref before going into future games.

2. He needs to know, going forward clarification for the forthcoming Lions series

3. He needs to analysis the full game, the key areas and where England really lost it


Finally I can't believe that certain Welsh posters on here are ruining yet another decent thread with their little knowledge WUMMED UP one liners

[nathan]

Its obvcious what happened anyway,

gatland and walsh are chums and Gatland needied an excuse to maximise welsh lions and minimize english..

Why would Gatland want to do that?

Even though i know you are joking, it seems to be a common premise by many England fans that Gatland wants welsh players on the tour.

Gatland has been chosen to coach a team to beat the Wallabies, national bias will not be any part of it. Why would it be. He's not even Welsh.

Many? Really?

[Guest]

Oh here we go again.

[SecretFly]

WUMMED UP one liners...

I'm enjoying this thread... I think it might get onto Top Gear for a test drive.

[red_stag]

Nothing wrong whatsoever with Rowantree making a report to the IRB. I think its a good thing in fact.

What is not a good things is going to the national media to complain about the referee.

[flyhalffactory]

Nothing wrong whatsoever with Rowantree making a report to the IRB. I think its a good thing in fact.

What is not a good things is going to the national media to complain about the referee.

Its in the public interest for goodness sake............ or do you want Rowntree to be all covert about it?

[Poorfour]

Bit of a strange move to hook your loosehead after 43 minutes, just because you aren't getting a fair deal at the scrum.

Very disappointed in this. Still it seems par for the course to blame the Welsh front row for everything. Scott Johnson wanted to as well.

No - if you feel that one guy has gotten on the wrong end of the ref in the set piece, it makes sense to put someone else on, especially if they are of similar ability. England did it before when they put on the Funbus after Vickery had been penalised repeatedly by Watson in the RWC 03 final ("I'll just go straight backwards and forwards shall I sir?" End of penalties). If Woodward had done it earlier, England might not have needed extra time.

As I posted elsewhere, Saturday was a case that forwards decide who wins, Steve Walsh decided by how much. As one poster has said above, Wales had the edge in pretty much all departments, and deserved the win - but it's not as if England were playing badly. Walsh was very one-sided and appeared to give Wales at the very least the benefit of the doubt at the scrum and breakdown again and again. He missed blatant binding on the arm, Hibbard popping up on several occasions (though to be fair he did penalise Wales once for that) and one tackle that - while not malicious or even particularly dangerous was by the IRB's definition a clear tip tackle. It ended the match as a contest and effectively made it an exhibition match for Wales after the first try. It would also appear that Walsh told Rowntree what he would look for at the scrum and breakdown and then did something different.

All referees make mistakes (I know, I do), but rugby - especially international rugby - is a game of very fine margins and I am always suspicious when the vast majority of refereeing decisions are made in favour of one team. The game is just not like that. To put it in context: England conceded more penalties in the first 20 minutes than they had in the whole of the Italy game. Are Wales really that much better than Italy? Did England really lose that much discipline in 6 days?

Wales played brilliantly on Saturday, found their form at just the right time, and thoroughly deserved their win. But I am sure that if you asked the Welsh players they would feel that they performed well enough to win the Championship without Mr Walsh rendering it a walkover for them.

[The Bachelor]

The Welsh pack were dominant in their last three games with different refs in each - how much of that is down to them being streetwise and playing the ref? I do find Steve Walsh funny though; sneaking looks at himself on the big screen every time he gives a decision while trying to outdo James O'Connor in the ridiculously short shorts competition.

[Triangulation]

Nothing wrong whatsoever with Rowantree making a report to the IRB. I think its a good thing in fact.

What is not a good things is going to the national media to complain about the referee.

OK Red stag,

You're right on this - both counts.

For those of you who are aggrieved at the second bit - i.e going to the media -

1. England do not normally do this regardless of results ; and

2. England know this will attract criticism i.e the going public bit. They know they'll be seen as being sour grapes. REMEMBER in this regard please they have more than credited Wales with the win and they have conceeded more Welsh Lions as a result etc.

3. They are in my speculative opinion deliberately doing it in this instance because Walsh is a self important, uncommunicative and incompetent ref who has percieved anti england bias (perception IS very important) , who never should have been appointed to ref this game SO England are doing their best to ensure that they never have to play a game refereed by him again.They want to enusre that the relationship is irretrievably damaged. Simple.

[Biltong]

The Welsh pack were dominant in their last three games with different refs in each - how much of that is down to them being streetwise and playing the ref? I do find Steve Walsh funny though; sneaking looks at himself on the big screen every time he gives a decision while trying to outdo James O'Connor in the ridiculously short shorts competition.

I doubt this has anything to do with whether the welsh scrum were dominant or not, there were a host of penaltes and free kicks awarded against the english at scrumtime, so I would suggest the query is in regards to that.

[wales606]

I really didn't like what Rowntree said in his interview.

He really crossed the line when it came to questioning the referees decisions and seem completely oblivious to the fact that his team got beaten in most areas across the pitch. I don't think anyone can seriously believe England would have won that game with a different referee, but Rowntree seems too.

Very concerning statement from a Lions coach and I hope his claim that the England v Wales game won't decide any of the Lions places is very wrong.

[red_stag]

Nothing wrong whatsoever with Rowantree making a report to the IRB. I think its a good thing in fact.

What is not a good things is going to the national media to complain about the referee.

Its in the public interest for goodness sake............ or do you want Rowntree to be all covert about it?

The public interest? How exactly. The only thing that needs doing is, as is standard, the coaches query issues they are confused about and the IRB to either explain why decisions were made or to agree that Walsh was incorrect.

There is nothing in the public interest at all. This is a very common practice done after every game. Referees are assessed and coaches may query incidents for clarification.

Rowantree has brought this into the public domain. I can't agree it is in the "public interest" whatsoever.

[wales606]

The Welsh pack were dominant in their last three games with different refs in each - how much of that is down to them being streetwise and playing the ref? I do find Steve Walsh funny though; sneaking looks at himself on the big screen every time he gives a decision while trying to outdo James O'Connor in the ridiculously short shorts competition.

I doubt this has anything to do with whether the welsh scrum were dominant or not, there were a host of penaltes and free kicks awarded against the english at scrumtime, so I would suggest the query is in regards to that.

I watched the game in a bar without commentary, and was surprised to here how much the scrum was questioned. Walsh was quick to blow up for penalties and seemed inpatient with England, but every penalty (bar 1) he blew for was pretty clear to see on the footage.

[nathan]

I really didn't like what Rowntree said in his interview.

He really crossed the line when it came to questioning the referees decisions and seem completely oblivious to the fact that his team got beaten in most areas across the pitch. I don't think anyone can seriously believe England would have won that game with a different referee, but Rowntree seems too.

Very concerning statement from a Lions coach and I hope his claim that the England v Wales game won't decide any of the Lions places is very wrong.

[Glas a du]

..."I sat up on Saturday night and watched the game again, in forensic detail," said Graham Rowntree, the forwards coach. "I'm annoyed at a lot of the outcomes...

[mystiroakey]

He should have waited aa bit to watch the game again..

Do something else, forget about rugby was the best soloution.

Clarity is needed on refs interpretation though

[Guest]

He should have waited aa bit to watch the game again..

Do something else, forget about rugby was the best soloution.

Clarity is needed on refs interpretation though

How long can he wait though? He's probably only still going to reach the same conclusion that he feels hard done by, whether he watched it that night or during the week.

[flyhalffactory]

I really didn't like what Rowntree said in his interview.

He really crossed the line when it came to questioning the referees decisions and seem completely oblivious to the fact that his team got beaten in most areas across the pitch. I don't think anyone can seriously believe England would have won that game with a different referee, but Rowntree seems too.

Very concerning statement from a Lions coach and I hope his claim that the England v Wales game won't decide any of the Lions places is very wrong.

wales606

Wales were 9-3 up going into the 50th minute not exactly dominant don't you think?, some of those three pens came from "scrummaging infringements", also Hibbard popped up on three maybe four occasions (before he was replaced on the 51st minute) and with no action against Wales, you can see where maybe Rowntree was concerned with "game changing decisions"

Where or when has Rowntree said that England should have won the game?

[mystiroakey]

He should have waited aa bit to watch the game again..

Do something else, forget about rugby was the best soloution.

Clarity is needed on refs interpretation though

How long can he wait though? He's probably only still going to reach the same conclusion that he feels hard done by, whether he watched it that night or during the week.

Not sure. Time heals. Once you get your head out of the sand you can reach a better interpretation

[Glas a du]

Yes Oakey. You can't isolate this game. Look at the shambles in the Rabo. The game is far too complicated. Half the laws need to be thrown out. Did you know there's a law which says that if your shoulders are lower than your hips in a ruck that its a free kick? What's the point, reffs never enforce that one! The IRB need a root and branch review of all laws on the premise of making the game one easily officiated by one man.

[gregortree]

I voted 'no, Wales were deserved winners.
But Walsh may have been worth 5 - 10 points in handing territory / possession advantage to Wales, and 'blowing' England out of Wales red zone.

[Biltong]

Yes Oakey. You can't isolate this game. Look at the shambles in the Rabo. The game is far too complicated. Half the laws need to be thrown out. Did you know there's a law which says that if your shoulders are lower than your hips in a ruck that its a free kick? What's the point, reffs never enforce that one! The IRB need a root and branch review of all laws on the premise of making the game one easily officiated by one man.

Which would result in everyone being on the same page and not question every decision.

[Triangulation]

Walsh is a terrible referee who should not be allowed to ref England or any international match ever again.

Rowntree is right to take this to the IRB for clarification.

He would be in dereliction of duty as a forwards coach having been "dismayed" at some of the decisions if he did not do so.

Wales fully deserved their win.

They were the better team on the day.

England have more than acknowledged this.

There is no inconsistency in or between these statements.

[Triangulation]

I really didn't like what Rowntree said in his interview.

He really crossed the line when it came to questioning the referees decisions and seem completely oblivious to the fact that his team got beaten in most areas across the pitch. I don't think anyone can seriously believe England would have won that game with a different referee, but Rowntree seems too.

Very concerning statement from a Lions coach and I hope his claim that the England v Wales game won't decide any of the Lions places is very wrong.

Rowntree has said precisely none of what you attribute to him and then criticise him for saying! Genius classic 606 stuff there.

[mckay1402]

I think they have good reason to question. That first scrum set the tone if the game and really Wales ought to have been done got driving before the ball is in. From that moment Wales were always on the front got and it did affect the game.

Yes because Wales were the better more complete team. .... And he was not just looking for answers, it was a blatant criticism of the ref and as I said Sour Grapes. Unless "Forensically studying" is just for fun. 30 - 3

I wasn't trying to suggest that they lost because of the refereeing but I think they have valid reasons to ask for clarification. Not sure about the breakdown but certainly in the scrum.

[Scrumpy]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

[nathan]

Walsh shouldn't ref anyone period. Just have a read up on his history as a ref, no other ref has had the amount of issues he's had.

[red_stag]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

Exactly

[nathan]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

Knowing England it would of probably leaked anyway.

[english warrior]

steve walsh was not the reason Wales beat England, i know that, and everyone who has put a Rugby shirt on and played this game knows that. I am one of the people who voted no on this subject.

The ref should be played to and as long as he is consistant then we all take the 'Rub of the Green' and when things happen, such as Englands flukey try against France then you take the decision, whether its in the plus or negative.


However, Walsh is not consistantly bad, or good to both sides, but seems to me and others, who are not England supporters to come with a history of at least antipathy to England and sometimes with an agenda. On Saturday he wasn't even handed, which i expected him to be, but surely the IRB must know this, and yet they still appoint him.

So nothing against any ref who gets it wrong, but every contempt for those who have an agenda and those who make out its 'Sour grapes' by England and her fans. I can tell you the best team won , but unfortunately the best ref was not there.

By the way my favourite ref of all time was a Welshman, Clive Norling, who i would have trusted to officiate on such an occasion and to have been Honourable, which Walsh was not.

[R!skysports]

While i think the media has blown this out of proportion, but there two very clear point to address

1) During the 6 nations the scrum and breakdown have been mess with total random decisions - often with the ref making it up and totally favoring one side regardless of what is happening before their eyes

2) The referring throughout the 6 nations has been sub par at best and down right incompetent at its worst and has had a real impact on too many games


But what is to be done. Should Joubert never ref again? Walsh never ref an England game? Barnes never try to understand a scrum?


This 6 nations has really not been a good advert for the game and if the standard of referring does not improve, or the laws become cleaner, then I feel the game is going to lose a lot of its shine

[Glas a du]

Did Sir Clive Woodward have a pop at the ref in 1999?

I can't remember.

It was only after the 2003 WC was the 99 game spoken about in terms of making that England team.

Can anybody spot the differences?

[flyhalffactory]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

Exactly

Because probably close onto 1.5 million have watched the match in some sort of way since the weekend, and many think its NEWSWORTHY, i.e. like this forum otherwise we wouldn't be debating it, you can say the same for Alex Ferguson criticising the ref when he sent Nani off etc etc

For goodness sake this is not high school, its a topical news subject

[Biltong]

There is another reason why thismight have gotten to the press.

Wind back to RWC 2011, John O'Neill the then ARU president threw his toys out of the cot after Australia's loss to Ireland in the pool round. He complained about the fact tat australia was penalised at the breakdown.

What was the result.

In the QF against SA, the same referee, decided not to blow at the breakdown.

Australia had free reign, Brussow was hit in the ribs on the 24 minute mark, was removed from the game, and SA had no answer to a breakdown with no rules.

It is more than just this game, it goes beyond what happens next time.

[jelly]

Out of interest, is Walsh barred from refereeing games involving either Australia or New Zealand?

[Guest]

I expected nothing less from the English coaching staff, also this whole "we are a young team" is nauseating,
six of the Welsh starting XV on Saturday are younger than their opposite English number.

I find it embarrassing,the English on 606 like to tar the Welsh with complaining about the ref when in fact it is always the English that do it.

Take the loss Rowntree and spend some of your hard earned money ear reconstruction! it really isn't that expensive for a man earning your type of money.

[red_stag]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

Exactly

Because probably close onto 1.5 million have watched the match in some sort of way since the weekend, and many think its NEWSWORTHY, i.e. like this forum otherwise we wouldn't be debating it, you can say the same for Alex Ferguson criticising the ref when he sent Nani off etc etc

For goodness sake this is not high school, its a topical news subject

I dont know about you but I would hope that we do not use Soccer and Alex Ferguson as an example of how to treat referees.

[nathan]

I expected nothing less from the English coaching staff, also this whole "we are a young team" is nauseating,
six of the Welsh starting XV on Saturday are younger than their opposite English number.

I find it embarrassing,the English on 606 like to tar the Welsh with complaining about the ref when in fact it is always the English that do it.

Take the loss Rowntree and spend some of your hard earned money ear reconstruction! it really isn't that expensive for a man earning your type of money.

[gregortree]

6 votes for a betting ring. Should the Sweeney look into this ?

[Poorfour]

Nothing wrong with England doing this, but why is it in the media?

Exactly

Because probably close onto 1.5 million have watched the match in some sort of way since the weekend, and many think its NEWSWORTHY, i.e. like this forum otherwise we wouldn't be debating it, you can say the same for Alex Ferguson criticising the ref when he sent Nani off etc etc

For goodness sake this is not high school, its a topical news subject

Also probably because Rowntree was being interviewed anyway (perhaps in his capacity as Lions coach) and got asked directly about it. What's he meant to do? Lie? It's not as if the RFU have put out a press release about it (They haven't. I checked).

[english warrior]

View - Why do you feel the need to personally abuse Graham Rowntree when he seeks to question something that many England fans feel strongly about. TUT, TUT

[Guest]

The English looked afraid to scrumage because they knew they would get exposed as weaker in that department, they mucked around and Walsh had no of it!
In recent times fans and pundits a like have been screaming for a ref to take charge at scrum time and Walsh did which speeded up the game,
England couldn't live with the pace Wales played at,
then to the break down, Wales entered through the gate and on their feet, England went flying in at all angles and flopped over the ball with no real support of body weight, Warburton did the exact same thing in the first half and got done for it,he walked over to Walsh and asked what he should do,Walsh told him and Warburton adjusted immediately and had a stormer.

[mystiroakey]

The English looked afraid to scrumage because they knew they would get exposed as weaker in that department, they mucked around and Walsh had no of it!
In recent times fans and pundits a like have been screaming for a ref to take charge at scrum time and Walsh did which speeded up the game,
England couldn't live with the pace Wales played at,
then to the break down, Wales entered through the gate and on their feet, England went flying in at all angles and flopped over the ball with no real support of body weight, Warburton did the exact same thing in the first half and got done for it,he walked over to Walsh and asked what he should do,Walsh told him and Warburton adjusted immediately and had a stormer.

I kind of agree tbh..

For once..

Anyway that is what we will take from the game. We are not going to just blame the ref!!

[Barney McGrew did it]

The irony on this thread is so delicious I'm going to have it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Then sneak downstairs for an after-lights-out nibble.

I'm dying to meet the mythical nation/team/fan that doesn't moan about the ref after they lose. The real weirdos are the one that do it after they win.

[XR]

Saint-Andre should write a report to the IRB regarding that dubious try that england scored which allowed them a shot at the grand slam, bet rowntree wrote a glowing report for that game.

Great point

The point had nothing to do with this post at all so is quite irrelevant.

Rowntree has every reason to clarify the reffing for at least three very good reasons

1. Wales on the first scrum hit went early and didn't get pinged , the very week before Scotland got pinged for doing the same. Now you could argue that McBryde has done his homework and changed the pack dynamics around to suit the opposition or you could argue gamesmanship and getting away with murder.

GR should use common sense and realise one thing, and you have pointed it out...

The point is the reffing decisions are inconsistent.

2. He needs to know, going forward clarification for the forthcoming Lions series

But he's not getting involved on behalf of the lions, he's representing England and any lions talk is completely irrelevant - he is not on lions duty until after the season ends.

3. He needs to analysis the full game, the key areas and where England really lost it.

And he will know where they really lost it - everywhere. I didn't see what Steve Walsh got wrong when Care moved out of the way for warburton to run through and then tipuric to go past barrett and stick cuthbert in the corner? How about GR looks at the fact his forward provided very little momentum when they had ball in hand? Parling made a few breaks but there was no one there with him, where was launchberry? Tom Wood? Beyond that...How about Tuilagi butchering overlaps? Care kicking the ball out dead when 5 metres from the line? It's not just the decisions at the scrums that affected the game it was the complete performance from the english team. Yes maybe the scrums landed penalties for wales, but in the grand scheme of things this english team, and probably more so the forward pack, was the first english team in god knows how many years to show that when it got tough, there was no backbone. I have never seen an english pack so physically dominated without giving it back. Whether it was the all blacks or wales, they would make sure the pack gave whoever it was a tough time...and that just didn't happen.

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