The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Firstly everyone agrees that the ref did not affect the outcome of the game as wales were superior in every department.

secondly even the most ardent welsh fans said straight after the game that Walsh gave England nothing all game and that they felt this was unfair and would not have been happy if it was the other way around.

So there is an established review process for coaches and refs after matches which is happening the same as after every match - no big deal here. Of course the media in england like to sensationalise everything, but for the england coaches they need to understand what went wrong so they can learn and improve for next time. And if Walsh got some decisions wrong then he needs to learn and improve.

The fact that england did not complain straight after the match shows that they do not wish to detract from Wale's performance.

There's no point trying to post something sensible, like the above, on an article like this.

Aside from Gatland's observations posted above, Shaun Edwards had plenty to say about the refereeing of Wales' first test in Aus last summer.

Let he who is without sin....etc.

It won't be the last time that a coaching team seek clarification about the way a particular match was refereed.

[Triangulation]

The irony on this thread is so delicious I'm going to have it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Then sneak downstairs for an after-lights-out nibble.

I'm dying to meet the mythical nation/team/fan that doesn't moan about the ref after they lose. The real weirdos are the one that do it after they win.

Oh you mean like Watson in the 2003RWC final?

We do Brendan Gallagher and ors actually take a shot at refs when we win too IF they are as shambolically bad as he was that night.

If that makes us weirdos so be it!

[damage_13]

Can we have an option for : No but the Walsh was poor and cost England momentum.

[gregortree]

Even Adam Jones commented that the scrum reffing was 'strange' I forget the exact word he used. Hibbard repeatedly stood up and England got pinged for it.

[R!skysports]

If anyone would have a complaint against the refs and scrum it would be Scotland who were reffed out of the game the week before

Now THAT was incompetent officiating

[cakeordeath]

If anyone would have a complaint against the refs and scrum it would be Scotland who were reffed out of the game the week before

Now THAT was incompetent officiating

Oh please, let's not open up that can or worms

[Guest]

I do wonder when the Welsh front row is going to get some praise on here. Even forgetting the Ireland game, Wales have seemingly been on top over the last four games come scrum time.

[R!skysports]

If anyone would have a complaint against the refs and scrum it would be Scotland who were reffed out of the game the week before

Now THAT was incompetent officiating

Oh please, let's not open up that can or worms

[nathan]

I do wonder when the Welsh front row is going to get some praise on here. Even forgetting the Ireland game, Wales have seemingly been on top over the last four games come scrum time.

How many more times can people say Wales deserved it, there front 5 provided the platform. Well done them. What else would you like us to do in order to get this message across!

[reallybored]

The English looked afraid to scrumage because they knew they would get exposed as weaker in that department, they mucked around and Walsh had no of it!.

Nonsense.

Scotland raised questions over the tactics of the Welsh scrum after the Murrayfield debacle.

In the Wales vs France match, 70% of the scrums resulted in a penalty or free-kick and there were similar stats in the Italy game.

I don't remember the scrum being such a mess when Scotland played England, Italy, Ireland or France but against Wales it was a farce.

Don't know what the Welsh front-row were doing and why the refs seemed to favour them but there's no way on this green earth that they've got the most powerful scrum.

[ChequeredJersey]

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/178-england-s-fate-should-not-be-in-steve-walsh-s-hands-by-mark-reason

Interesting blog from a kiwi written 12 months ago

[ChequeredJersey]

The comments are more interesting than the blog itslef

[Hound_of_Harrow]

I do wonder when the Welsh front row is going to get some praise on here. Even forgetting the Ireland game, Wales have seemingly been on top over the last four games come scrum time.

Oh aye Rev. The best front 'five' in the 6N. Ian Evans is a bit of an unsung hero, but he does provide a lot of momentum from the second row.

[ChequeredJersey]

And I apologise, thought he was a Kiwi, but in fact he is not

[HammerofThunor]

When I was watching the game it seemed to me that quite a few calls were from the AR on Jones/Marler side. Then Walsh was questioned why he said "collapsing" which doesn't mean much by itself. Nothing wrong with getting clarification from the reffing team on it even if Walsh himself wasn't sure. I never make decisions on ref 'quality' on first viewing. Always biased.

The scrums generally are a complete mess. Most tightheads bind on the arm, but it's the one on the refs side that usually gets penalised (if at all). Most looseheads lose their binds (time to time, often due to the tighthead binding on the arm) but it's the one on the refs side who gets penalised. Then you have two refs either side of the scrum. Ref might see his tight head on the arm but decide to let it go. AR sees the same thing on his and brings it to the refs attention. We just see biased reffing. I thought Walsh was excellent when we lost to France in the WC. I thought some of his decisions were a bit dodgy on saturday which probably means he was pretty reasonable (if I thought he was decent it would have meant he was biased for England).

Overall it did seem there was some uncertainties in the scrums and some lack of detail in some decisions. But I think some of these came from the fact the AR was making some decisions. The whole thing needs simplifying and I wish they'd at least remove the hit as a trial (note that this would mean Wales' strong scrum would gain more of an advantage not less and the opposition wouldn't be able to get away with cheating them as easily in theory).

Rest of the game was much like any other game, some 'dodgy' decisions, some wrong decisions and a different interpretation than I have. Nothing particularly noteworthy.

[HammerofThunor]

The English looked afraid to scrumage because they knew they would get exposed as weaker in that department, they mucked around and Walsh had no of it!.

Nonsense.

Scotland raised questions over the tactics of the Welsh scrum after the Murrayfield debacle.

In the Wales vs France match, 70% of the scrums resulted in a penalty or free-kick and there were similar stats in the Italy game.

I don't remember the scrum being such a mess when Scotland played England, Italy, Ireland or France but against Wales it was a farce.

Don't know what the Welsh front-row were doing and why the refs seemed to favour them but there's no way on this green earth that they've got the most powerful scrum.

Maybe the opposition try to cheat to mitigate the Welsh scrum. Or maybe Wales are using illigal tactics. Could be either or both or none. doesn't mean much

[ChequeredJersey]

They are trialling removing the hit in South Africa, I think

[Glas a du]

That's the best post this year Thunor (your long one two above)

[english warrior]

Chequered jersey- Interesting article and suggests that the rather complex Steve Walsh should be removed from the Reffing lists ASAP.

[nathan]

The English looked afraid to scrumage because they knew they would get exposed as weaker in that department, they mucked around and Walsh had no of it!.

Nonsense.

Scotland raised questions over the tactics of the Welsh scrum after the Murrayfield debacle.

In the Wales vs France match, 70% of the scrums resulted in a penalty or free-kick and there were similar stats in the Italy game.

I don't remember the scrum being such a mess when Scotland played England, Italy, Ireland or France but against Wales it was a farce.

Don't know what the Welsh front-row were doing and why the refs seemed to favour them but there's no way on this green earth that they've got the most powerful scrum.

Maybe the opposition try to cheat to mitigate the Welsh scrum. Or maybe Wales are using illigal tactics. Could be either or both or none. doesn't mean much

According to the welsh media the Wales team have admitted collapsing the scrum on several occasions but were surprised not to have been penalised.

[gregortree]

I do wonder when the Welsh front row is going to get some praise on here. Even forgetting the Ireland game, Wales have seemingly been on top over the last four games come scrum time.

well done Wales & front row in particular. Wales would have won with any ref.
This is not in contradiction to a genuine query about SW even handedness.

[offload]

When I was watching the game it seemed to me that quite a few calls were from the AR on Jones/Marler side. Then Walsh was questioned why he said "collapsing" which doesn't mean much by itself. Nothing wrong with getting clarification from the reffing team on it even if Walsh himself wasn't sure. I never make decisions on ref 'quality' on first viewing. Always biased.

The scrums generally are a complete mess. Most tightheads bind on the arm, but it's the one on the refs side that usually gets penalised (if at all). Most looseheads lose their binds (time to time, often due to the tighthead binding on the arm) but it's the one on the refs side who gets penalised. Then you have two refs either side of the scrum. Ref might see his tight head on the arm but decide to let it go. AR sees the same thing on his and brings it to the refs attention. We just see biased reffing. I thought Walsh was excellent when we lost to France in the WC. I thought some of his decisions were a bit dodgy on saturday which probably means he was pretty reasonable (if I thought he was decent it would have meant he was biased for England).

Overall it did seem there was some uncertainties in the scrums and some lack of detail in some decisions. But I think some of these came from the fact the AR was making some decisions. The whole thing needs simplifying and I wish they'd at least remove the hit as a trial (note that this would mean Wales' strong scrum would gain more of an advantage not less and the opposition wouldn't be able to get away with cheating them as easily in theory).

Rest of the game was much like any other game, some 'dodgy' decisions, some wrong decisions and a different interpretation than I have. Nothing particularly noteworthy.

[SecretFly]

Based on the observations and comments about Walsh. I have it now about 30 -10

Keep going. This game might be pulled back from the brink afterall.....

[maestegmafia]

I was at the game on Saturday evening. I was listening to the the Referee radio, Walsh was excellent at explaining decisions to players. There was no animosity, no hard feeling and any further discussions between Walsh and players after he had explained himself were amicable and polite.

[SecretFly]

I was at the game on Saturday evening. I was listening to the the Referee radio, Walsh was excellent at explaining decisions to players. There was no animosity, no hard feeling and any further discussions between Walsh and players after he had explained himself were amicable and polite.

You were listening and not shouting, maesteg????

Shame on you, Sir!!!!!

[nathan]

Based on the observations and comments about Walsh. I have it now about 30 -10

Keep going. This game might be pulled back from the brink afterall.....

yes because everyone is saying wales didn't deserve to win. Jeeez some people on here have real issues reading!!!

[HammerofThunor]

It was quite funny actually as I kept swearing at the tele. My wife would ask "was the right call?". And I grudgingly had to say "Well...yes, they were just bloody stupid". Then there's the favourite, rewinding the TV muttering "he bloody well wasn't on he feet, definately wasn't on his feet" (or "he was the tackler and didn't release", etc). Then followed by "...oh, fair call".

I was furious after that game but only at the English players (well some of them anyway). No excuse for some of their stupid decisions.

[dragonbreath]

It is funny how Jouberts one eyed officiating of the France match is all forgotten now, as the drive to cover up the cracks and save reputations begins. The Mist of Delusion begins to settle around the English camp once again as if nothing had happened.

Suits us and please, please, send out the same team next year. They were great and you were cheated

[mikey_philVIII]

Interesting. No matter the generation of English coaches they always blame the ref. I'm thinking back to the days of Sir Clive, Andy Robinson and Martin 'there are no 2003 cavalry coming over the hill' Johnson here. It is a poor trend to continue.

[SecretFly]

Based on the observations and comments about Walsh. I have it now about 30 -10

Keep going. This game might be pulled back from the brink afterall.....

yes because everyone is saying wales didn't deserve to win. Jeeez some people on here have real issues reading!!!

Nathan - a shot of humour wouldn't go amiss...or just recognising a blatantly silly comment (in a series of silly comments!!!) for what it is. A little nonsense observation of satire.

When I get serious, I'll let you know in advance.

[nathan]

Based on the observations and comments about Walsh. I have it now about 30 -10

Keep going. This game might be pulled back from the brink afterall.....

yes because everyone is saying wales didn't deserve to win. Jeeez some people on here have real issues reading!!!

Nathan - a shot of humour wouldn't go amiss...or just recognising a blatantly silly comment (in a series of silly comments!!!) for what it is. A little nonsense observation of satire.

When I get serious, I'll let you know in advance.

Sorry, I didn't realise that was an attempt at humour...

[maestegmafia]

I was at the game on Saturday evening. I was listening to the the Referee radio, Walsh was excellent at explaining decisions to players. There was no animosity, no hard feeling and any further discussions between Walsh and players after he had explained himself were amicable and polite.

You were listening and not shouting, maesteg????

Shame on you, Sir!!!!!

I had my grand daughter on my lap most of the game, she gets very upset when Grampa shouts at the game...



I would really like to know which specific decisions people think were wrong, time frame them. The game is on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZwd_HNcLew

If anyone would like to highlight the incorrect decisions maybe that would elude to whether Walsh was right or wrong.

[mikey_philVIII]

Police are searching for 15 men dressed in red rugby shirts who assaulted some englishmen in cardiff on saturday,they are also looking for 74,500 others who witnessed the attack and stood around clapping and cheering and singing hymns and arias,a police spokesman said,this sort of attack is sickening,one of the victims was a young lad called owen farrel who was left traumatised by the whole experience,police say they are following a number of leads and believe the crimson shirted gang may be linked to a similar attack in twickenham a year ago.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well, the scrum at 0:4610ish for a start, though Thunor gives a decent explanation that it's mostly the AR's call not Walsh's there, and to be fair we can't see what is happening on Cole/Jenkins' side

[gregortree]

" ... which specific decisions people think were wrong, time frame them. The game is on YouTube"

Rowntree has done the homework for us and I expect he will tell us all soon.

[ChequeredJersey]

And again at 49:16

[ChequeredJersey]

And again at 1:06:45

[maestegmafia]

And again at 49:16

What happens at 49mins 16seconds?

[SecretFly]

Sorry, I didn't realise that was an attempt at humour...

Well, that's my point. Calm down and you'll see rubbish for what it is sometimes. We don't have to be overly-serious assholes all the time in here. It's not in our contract- promise

[maestegmafia]

Well, the scrum at 0:4610ish for a start, though Thunor gives a decent explanation that it's mostly the AR's call not Walsh's there, and to be fair we can't see what is happening on Cole/Jenkins' side

So the Touch judge had it in for England as well?

Is it not conceivable that England just give away a lot of penalties at scrum time? I think Dan Cole had been awarded more penalties than any other English player prior to Saturday.

[ChequeredJersey]

And dropping the bind again (no longer Adam Jones, I think) at 1:22:08

[ChequeredJersey]

Actually, almost every scrum in the game, though as Hammer points out, much of the problem is with the AR

[english warrior]

Mickeyphil- Assault by 15 men in red on 15 men in White?

Well i think i can settle the reason for this assault.

The men in Red were after the World cup won fair and square by the men in White, some years ago, and the alleged assault on the 15 men in white is the nearest they will ever get to the World cup!!!

[ChequeredJersey]

Well, the scrum at 0:4610ish for a start, though Thunor gives a decent explanation that it's mostly the AR's call not Walsh's there, and to be fair we can't see what is happening on Cole/Jenkins' side

So the Touch judge had it in for England as well?

Is it not conceivable that England just give away a lot of penalties at scrum time? I think Dan Cole had been awarded more penalties than any other English player prior to Saturday.

No, just that in each of those scrums, I cannot see what Cole is doing and he may very well be cheating but I can see what Jones is doing (and what he admitted after the game, allegedly) and that is a penalty every time as he binds on the arm every time in the 2nd half, but the AR doesn't call it

[doctornickolas]

Mickeyphil- Assault by 15 men in red on 15 men in White?

Well i think i can settle the reason for this assault.

The men in Red were after the World cup won fair and square by the men in White, some years ago, and the alleged assault on the 15 men in white is the nearest they will ever get to the World cup!!!

Any complaints by the men in white should be reported immediately by ringing 0800 101010. That's 0800 won nothing won nothing won nothing.

[english warrior]

The 15 men in Red were reportedly assisted by a bearded Antipodean male, who was clearly angry at the men in white who it was alleged had transported the Antipodeans forbears to the said penal colony many years prior to this incident (which accounts for this gentlemans hostility) . As a result it seems that this person, known by the name Walsh, supported the 15 men in Red in their dastardly plot.

However, the 15 men in White although having the cup stolen from them have 12 grand slams and the aforementioned World cup win in their safe, well away from 15 men in red who obviously can only dream of such an abundance of riches.

[Guest]

Does anyone believe that Owens having made a half tackle and the English forward falling to the deck beyond him did not then have a second bite by diving into the side of the ensuing ruck and the ball squirting out on the welsh side ??
Result welsh over lap, welsh try.
The English backs stopped and threw up their arms - lesson one, play to the whistle.

As an aside, does anyone know if England have ever won a game with Walsh in charge ? I am not sure they have.

[lostinwales]

Someone said we won once vs France with Walsh in charge. So I guess he either didnt care or hates the French even more

[Breadvan]

It's just the arrogance you expect from them, the game is there for all to see, no one apart from the English would agree with this total crap. We smashed them and long may it happen. I do expect it to continue, they are nothing special and have been hyped up to the max and are falling from grace.

Yaaaayyy. Wonder how'd long it take before the A word appeared. Have a shiny apple rw...

[sirBiggles]

Pathetic, absolutely pathetic...

After reading the report, I looked again at some of the decisions, in particular to the even Rowntree said was suspect which lead to the first try. THERE WAS NOTHING AT ALL WRONG WITH THAT PLAY... Ball comes out of the breakdown, Tips was on side and collected the ball, releasing it and from through the hands and try.... Brilliant try, no issues.

I had a lot of respect for this English side and particularly their coaching set up, but this has put them in a new light... And not a good one.

Ref's can get things wrong, which seem to give illusion of bias one way or other. For example, Mr Rolland on all Wales games ( ) or more recently Craig Jourbert's appeared bias to All Blacks last autumn against Wales... Yet I say, I still believe the refs aren't bias, as if I really believed otherwise it would destroy my belief that this is one of the few professional sports that still has honour to it.

For the English coaching set up to elude there was any wrong doing here, is purely churlish and shows bad sportsmanship.

You lost, you where not good enough to take the Slam, not this time. Live with it and learn from it.

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