The post-6-Nations Anglo Welsh bickering thread

[Ospreydragon]

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/frustrated-england-will-challenge-referee-calls-8541351.html


Thread renamed to match the actual debate taking place

[Breadvan]

Sour grapes and poor sportsmanship.

Typical of the England camp to lack any dignity in defeat.

In my view active coaching staff who question match officials in the media should be banned by the IRB.

Also typical of the English media to describe Walsh in such pejorative terms.

England will never learn the lessons of their great grand slam chokes unless they search their own failings and not a referees.

It's also laughable that Rowntree believes England's reviews of referees are held in such high regard, and hardly surprising that they've been "glowing" in recent times given the easy ride they've been given, especially in that NZ game'

Hey grey ghost...

[Duty281]

I think the word is 'queried', not challenged. I'd probably only query the calls at the scrum, but if I'm honest, no referee gets the scrum right these days - might as well flip a coin.

[Glas a du]

Exactly. If it takes England getting the rough end to sort it out, that's a sacrifice I think is worth making...

Seriously though, it does need sorting. I think it's simple - passive bind, only push when ball comes in.

[thebluesmancometh]

Just want to comment on the few scrums named by CJ above...

46;10

Difficult one to call, can't see exactly whats going on between Jenkins and Cole (except Coles arm waving around at the point of whistle) but Marler has been folded in half by Jones, Jones has got the hit and started to drive through Youngs who's offering nothing to aid Marler whatsoever, and is just happy to drive through where HIbbard used to be.

My call = penalty Wales against Marler.


49;16

Cat and mouse games from Wales IMHO, theyve decided on a 'soft' hit and the English boys have gone in and dropped, none of their feet were expecting it clearly as none of them chase the hit!

My call = reset/free kick England Wales not taking the hit maybe.


1:06:45

James and Hibbard have Cole there, Cole may have actually slipped but it does look like it's been dropped and the LH and Hooker have the momentum going forward.

My call = Penalty Wales

1:22

Andrews has clearly dropped his bind to get his arm inside Vunipola and look to drive him through, but as thats happening James and Owens have demolished through the other side.

My call = penalty England (but you can't really blame Walsh for not seeing that and giving it to Wales as from his angle England were demolished.)

I would also have penalised Hartley the scrum before that one however for standing up under pressure.

There were other scrums too, and 1 in particular I couldn't beleive we got (I'm not going traulling for it though).

I though England were outfoxed early on and straight up beat in others, once they lost a few they didn't know how to react at all.

[jelly]

So, sirBiggles, does that mean every decision that Walsh made was correct and in line with the interpretation that he discussed with Rowntree ahead of the match?

[sirBiggles]

I'm saying Wales won, England lost, get over it...

The particular point Rowntree made in the report on the Independent link was around the try and Rowntree said the ball was won illegally. I looked at that play several times and imo there is nothing wrong with it....

How many times have Welsh fans been slated for pointing out referee failures. We get tarred as bad losers....

Well get over this and accept you where destroyed by the better side or accept the tag of "bad losers", "whinging English"... your call...

...but either way, doesn't matter to us, we are the 6 Nations Champions and as printed on a WRU tee-shirt... "We Even Gave You a Head Start..."

Which you can buy here if you want one http://store.wru.co.uk/We-even-gave-you-a-head-startTee.-PRE-ORDER.-1-WEEK.html

[Scrumpy]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

At least they waited until after the game to print it

[LondonTiger]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

At least they waited until after the game to print it

Unlike last year, when the shirts went on sale the very next day

[sirBiggles]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

That was my first thought... then when I see threads like this (ie. complaining about the referee, when Wales didnt just win, but smashed the English team), I think.... No, all fair in love and war..

[Scrumpy]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

[lostinwales]

Nobody is saying that Wales didnt deserve to win. Lots of people are saying that Walsh did questionable things

[Scrumpy]

Sorry guys I couldn't resist.

[sirBiggles]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

At least they waited until after the game to print it

Unlike last year, when the shirts went on sale the very next day

Tiger, actually a limited number of shirts went on sale in the stadium after the whistle was blown...

Thousands like me bought unofficial Grand Slam Tee Shirts from fly pitchers outside the stadium, only to find out later (when sober) that we didn't play Scotland in 2012 Grand Slam encounter, yet beat New Zealand..

Lets be honest, in today's business they have to produce this merchandise beforehand and take the risk, the problem England had that time, wasn't the tee-shirt but the silly way the ad was leaked beforehand.... Ad mans man sausage-up which back fired on the RFU.

[dummy_half]

Bluesman

Thanks for a very honest post. The problem is that almost every scrum both tightheads look to bind on the arm and the looseheads to exert downward pressure. Since everyone is bending the laws all the time the ref just has to guess which is having the most detrimental effect. Agree with the comment above that the game needs to revert to passive setting of the scrum so that the props can actually get a meaningful bind and create the stable basis for everyone else - to my mind this will actually benefit the stronger scrimmaging teams and also may see a bit of a change to props physiques as it will be more important to be strong from a static position rather than dynamically powerful - bigger and slower guys will benefit.

I think, as with most England fans, that Wales won and played well enough to merit getting more than enough margin to win the title - I reckon on performance it was probably a >14 point victory, but that Walsh's one-sidedness at the scrums made the difference between a good win and a rout.

[Scarpia]

That t-shirt lacks class, poor show WRU, and they call us arrogant!

We don't call you arrogant ...................... we merely point out the fact.

[Duty281]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

Here's the bookcase holding match reports of all Wales' games in World Cup finals:

[sirBiggles]

I think, as with most England fans, that Wales won and played well enough to merit getting more than enough margin to win the title - I reckon on performance it was probably a >14 point victory, but that Walsh's one-sidedness at the scrums made the difference between a good win and a rout.

So from that I conclude you say that Walsh gave Wales 13 points from infringements at the scrums... ie 4 kickable penalities...

Anyone have the stats of how many penalities where awarded from the scrum, how many of them where kickable, how many resulted in a 3 point gain.... FOR BOTH SIDES.

Guys, I really dont think any of you are coming out of this with any credit...

[Taffineastbourne]

Wasn't Joubert one of the touch judges?This could explain a few things.

[sirBiggles]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

Here's the bookcase holding match reports of all Wales' games in World Cup finals:

Are you sure Duty, it looks very much like the trophy cabinet at Twickers.....

[Guest]

Hilarious that they are moaning about Tips collecting that loose ball it was totally legal.

England v France the Samoan centre"forgot his name sorry but you know the one he is from Samoa and his brothers play for Samoa but the English capped him and think he is God,you know the one i mean?! he butted Halfpenny around the 53rd min on saturday,he jumped off the back of a docking ferry in the world cup and punched Chris Ashton in the face"
well scored his try v France by collecting the ball from a similar sitution but he was off side! Rowntree don't moan about that does he?

Manu Tuilagi thats his name

[ChequeredJersey]

Just want to comment on the few scrums named by CJ above...

46;10

Difficult one to call, can't see exactly whats going on between Jenkins and Cole (except Coles arm waving around at the point of whistle) but Marler has been folded in half by Jones, Jones has got the hit and started to drive through Youngs who's offering nothing to aid Marler whatsoever, and is just happy to drive through where HIbbard used to be.

My call = penalty Wales against Marler.


49;16

Cat and mouse games from Wales IMHO, theyve decided on a 'soft' hit and the English boys have gone in and dropped, none of their feet were expecting it clearly as none of them chase the hit!

My call = reset/free kick England Wales not taking the hit maybe.


1:06:45

James and Hibbard have Cole there, Cole may have actually slipped but it does look like it's been dropped and the LH and Hooker have the momentum going forward.

My call = Penalty Wales

1:22

Andrews has clearly dropped his bind to get his arm inside Vunipola and look to drive him through, but as thats happening James and Owens have demolished through the other side.

My call = penalty England (but you can't really blame Walsh for not seeing that and giving it to Wales as from his angle England were demolished.)

I would also have penalised Hartley the scrum before that one however for standing up under pressure.

There were other scrums too, and 1 in particular I couldn't beleive we got (I'm not going traulling for it though).

I though England were outfoxed early on and straight up beat in others, once they lost a few they didn't know how to react at all.

In at least 2 of those (the first 2), Bluesman, you can see Jones grabbing Marler/Mako's arm and yanking down. Now whether it was this that caused the English collapse or not is a matter of opinion from here but either way it is clearly against the rules that stipulate you must bind to the body, and was deliberate cheating to force the LH to the ground without having to "fold them". Just watch the hand position on the bind in each case

[Guest]

Oh god they are talking about World cup finals again, sounding like that friend who brings out his i shook Rick Ashley's hand in 1989 story.

[Geordie]

the Samoan centre"forgot his name sorry but you know the one he is from Samoa and his brothers play for Samoa but the English capped him and think he is God...

Its ironic viewtothegym....the only Englishman to Score a try was that right winger playing for you...

[bluestonevedder]

Hilarious that they are moaning about Tips collecting that loose ball it was totally legal.

England v France the Samoan centre"forgot his name sorry but you know the one he is from Samoa and his brothers play for Samoa but the English capped him and think he is God,you know the one i mean?! he butted Halfpenny around the 53rd min on saturday,he jumped off the back of a docking ferry in the world cup and punched Chris Ashton in the face"
well scored his try v France by collecting the ball from a similar sitution but he was off side! Rowntree don't moan about that does he?

Manu Tuilagi thats his name

Damn, I lose. I was thinking of a Pacific Island player and came up with Faletau! My bad.

[SecretFly]

Our Pacific Islander looks less like one than your Pacific Islander!!! So there!!

This thread keeps entertaining. Keep it up guys.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

This is getting tasty !

Think perhaps that Messrs Lancaster and Roundtree have forgotten the old adage when you win say little, when you lose say nothing .

[bluestonevedder]

Ah, but my dad's bigger than your dad. My manhood is also larger. I can also drink more beer than you without falling over. I can bench press more than you too. In my spare time, I dabble in a little nuclear physics because I'm also that much more clever than you. I once shook Mandela's hand and inspired him to do something great too.

Arguement over. Finito. Because from the safety of behind my own keyboard, and across the wonder that is the internet, I have been a courageous keyboard warrior.

[doctor_grey]

OK boys. I get this sounds like a bunch of cow patties after a bad loss. But the criticism of Walsh is valid. He has always been a potentially great referee but one who lets his personality and ego get in the way. I have been a critic of his for a long while. And I don't think he should referee at the highest levels - for anyone.

Clearly, he is not the reason England lost. The two reasons England lost were:
England
Wales.
That is obvious.

But Walsh has a history and should not referee internationals. Last year he made a hash of the ending of England-Wales. And he has been poor for all teams going back for years. I would rather make this thread about how to properly evaluate referees. There was some grumbling about a referee eminating out of the Republic, in the last RWC, I recall. And from New Zealand the RWC before. And so it goes.

[Guest]

Must be awful having to resort to the we beat NZ recently or awful World Cup patter.

[Ospreydragon]

JPR:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9942210/Six-Nations-2013-JPR-Williams-tells-England-to-stop-moaning-about-referee-and-accept-Wales-were-just-better.html

[bluestonevedder]

Must be awful having to resort to the we beat NZ recently or awful World Cup patter.

Who's mentioning that?

I for one have already admitted that Wales were by far the superior team at the weekend, and that it was a well deserved victory.

Rowntree is a coach, and has to help his team continually learn. One point of that is striving to understand why penalties were awarded against his team. He is seeking clarification.

There are no excuses for the loss other than England weren't good enough. Nothing would have changed the outcome.

[english warrior]

Wales won, fair and square, no issue with that, but with walsh playing for them and hamstringing England how pleased can wales be with the result, i mean, after all England didn't turn up and i've heard that they were suffering from D and V!!!

Just kidding, but i thought i'd re-cycle all the excuses that Welsh fans trot out when England do something they can't, like beat the AB's, and actually beat SA. Poor end to a fine season for England and a less than content one for many Welsh posters on here, who are feeling a little unworthy, well, all i can say is better luck next time, but with refs like Walsh in your pocket, who needs luck.

[SecretFly]

Lancaster:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/england/1234567/Six-Nations-2013-Lancaster-tells-JPR-to-enjoy-retirement-and-not-get-involved-in-England-official-business.html

[bluestonevedder]

Lancaster:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/england/1234567/Six-Nations-2013-Lancaster-tells-JPR-to-enjoy-retirement-and-not-get-involved-in-England-official-business.html

I admit, I clicked! More wishful thinking than anything

[Guest]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

Here's the bookcase holding match reports of all Wales' games in World Cup finals:

Bluestone,

I probably wouldn't mind if he was just saying he's seeking clarification, but it comes across as more to criticise than just for seeking clarification purposes.

[bluestonevedder]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

Here's the bookcase holding match reports of all Wales' games in World Cup finals:

Bluestone,

I probably wouldn't mind if he was just saying he's seeking clarification, but it comes across as more to criticise than just for seeking clarification purposes.

Pretty sure the England management and especially Rowntree have all said it's only for clarification. Why they've gone so public with it, I don't know. THey shouldn't have done.

[nathan]

JPR:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9942210/Six-Nations-2013-JPR-Williams-tells-England-to-stop-moaning-about-referee-and-accept-Wales-were-just-better.html

JPR needs to learn to read, England have already said Wales played better and deserved to win.

Why do some people find it so hard to read and take that bit of info in?

[nathan]

The WRU show off their collection of rare year books, this collection also contains the match report of their last win vs the All Blacks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/11/13/1258126370283/Dusty-books-001.jpg

Here's the bookcase holding match reports of all Wales' games in World Cup finals:

Bluestone,

I probably wouldn't mind if he was just saying he's seeking clarification, but it comes across as more to criticise than just for seeking clarification purposes.

he actually uses the words seeking clarification, yes he is criticising walsh which is why he wants the clarification.

[Breadvan]

JPR:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9942210/Six-Nations-2013-JPR-Williams-tells-England-to-stop-moaning-about-referee-and-accept-Wales-were-just-better.html

JPR needs to learn to read, England have already said Wales played better and deserved to win.

Why do some people find it so hard to read and take that bit of info in?

They can only read with the one eye..

[SecretFly]

Well I'd assume their right eyes read the good bits (the praise) and their left eyes read the bad bits (ref complaints)?

They're confused, that's all.

[Guest]

Pretty sure the England management and especially Rowntree have all said it's only for clarification. Why they've gone so public with it, I don't know. THey shouldn't have done.

I think he would be better saying words like I'm confused by certain outcomes rather than I'm annoyed by certain outcomes and I don't think Lancaster needs to mention (in public) the legality of the turnover.

[nathan]

Pretty sure the England management and especially Rowntree have all said it's only for clarification. Why they've gone so public with it, I don't know. THey shouldn't have done.

I think he would be better saying words like I'm confused by certain outcomes rather than I'm annoyed by certain outcomes and I don't think Lancaster needs to mention (in public) the legality of the turnover.

I'm guessing he is annoyed if he thinks he's hard done by.

[thebluesmancometh]

Just want to comment on the few scrums named by CJ above...

46;10

Difficult one to call, can't see exactly whats going on between Jenkins and Cole (except Coles arm waving around at the point of whistle) but Marler has been folded in half by Jones, Jones has got the hit and started to drive through Youngs who's offering nothing to aid Marler whatsoever, and is just happy to drive through where HIbbard used to be.

My call = penalty Wales against Marler.


49;16

Cat and mouse games from Wales IMHO, theyve decided on a 'soft' hit and the English boys have gone in and dropped, none of their feet were expecting it clearly as none of them chase the hit!

My call = reset/free kick England Wales not taking the hit maybe.


1:06:45

James and Hibbard have Cole there, Cole may have actually slipped but it does look like it's been dropped and the LH and Hooker have the momentum going forward.

My call = Penalty Wales

1:22

Andrews has clearly dropped his bind to get his arm inside Vunipola and look to drive him through, but as thats happening James and Owens have demolished through the other side.

My call = penalty England (but you can't really blame Walsh for not seeing that and giving it to Wales as from his angle England were demolished.)

I would also have penalised Hartley the scrum before that one however for standing up under pressure.

There were other scrums too, and 1 in particular I couldn't beleive we got (I'm not going traulling for it though).

I though England were outfoxed early on and straight up beat in others, once they lost a few they didn't know how to react at all.

In at least 2 of those (the first 2), Bluesman, you can see Jones grabbing Marler/Mako's arm and yanking down. Now whether it was this that caused the English collapse or not is a matter of opinion from here but either way it is clearly against the rules that stipulate you must bind to the body, and was deliberate cheating to force the LH to the ground without having to "fold them". Just watch the hand position on the bind in each case

Problem with that CJ os that the other sid eof the scrum the opposing prop is trying to bind on the arm too. And Jones binds at the shoulder/armpit, do we class either as arm? We are talking splitting hairs with the odd inch here or there, the argument can be made that the English front rowers weren't chasing the hit correctly on every scrum and deserved to be pinged, or that England in the first 3/4 scrums of the game were trying to scrummage an inch from the floor to negate Jones, or that Wales front row delays going down too long (watch every game they insist in crouching 2nd)

If we're being honest just about any front rower can be pinged at any scrum for some technicality, the best front rows get away with more than their opposition, I know a few front rowers who would claim the more you got away with the better player you are.

Just want to point out too that I don't begrudge Rowntree asking as many questions as he likes about every phacet of play, the best coaches need to know exactly what happened, how it happened and how they can rectify and manipulate it in the next game.

[100%beefy]

I'm saying Wales won, England lost, get over it...

The particular point Rowntree made in the report on the Independent link was around the try and Rowntree said the ball was won illegally. I looked at that play several times and imo there is nothing wrong with it....

How many times have Welsh fans been slated for pointing out referee failures. We get tarred as bad losers....

Well get over this and accept you where destroyed by the better side or accept the tag of "bad losers", "whinging English"... your call...

...but either way, doesn't matter to us, we are the 6 Nations Champions and as printed on a WRU tee-shirt... "We Even Gave You a Head Start..."

Which you can buy here if you want one http://store.wru.co.uk/We-even-gave-you-a-head-startTee.-PRE-ORDER.-1-WEEK.html

ffs wales...the best teams in the world do their talking on the pitch, they don't gloat and they don't admit they dropped scrums....

Just ordered 2!!

[Glas a du]

If we're being honest just about any front rower can be pinged at any scrum for some technicality

Which is a pathetic state of affairs. Unfortunately it's also true of the breakdown/ruck.

IRB this is your fault. SORT IT OUT!

[dogtooth]

im not sure what bothers me more; the 'annual spring time welsh fans shouting about how rubbish england are and how we all hate them cos they are horrbile' or the 'ref bashing'.

i think its the former tbh.

weve all seen a ref give us a hard time, no need to tell us welsh fans about unfair ref decisions.

1500 comments on bbc board and its all jingoistic bull. at least we have V2 for some all year round sensible comments.

btw, we wuz awsum baby !!!!

[Breadvan]

I don't think I've ever seen one victory kicked the arse out of so much, and so much focus, bad jokes and one upsmanship to the other side ever. What next, the original copy of the bible found in the MS?

[SecretFly]

...the bad jokes are catching........

Ah, I'm only bad joking, Breadvan.....

[100%beefy]

I don't think I've ever seen one victory kicked the arse out of so much, and so much focus, bad jokes and one upsmanship to the other side ever. What next, the original copy of the bible found in the MS?

don't be ridiculous, we all know it's buried at Twickenham...Manu dropped it there!

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