England summer tour of Argentina

by king_carlos Sun 24 Mar 2013, 6:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

by yappysnap Thu 09 May 2013, 3:31 pm

Cole seems far to quiet at the moment, and has a heck of a lot on his plate with all the newby front rowers around him. Maybe Parling?

by Geordie Thu 09 May 2013, 3:33 pm

If Robshaw is overtaken by one of the young 7's then i would go for Wood as captain...the one originally earmarked for it.

by Effervescing Elephant Thu 09 May 2013, 3:37 pm

Can you imagine the 'meedja' furore if 'Captain Fantastic' was dropped for the AIs? It'd be a good test of Lancasters resolve if nothing else.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 09 May 2013, 3:42 pm

yappysnap wrote:Cole seems far to quiet at the moment, and has a heck of a lot on his plate with all the newby front rowers around him. Maybe Parling?

Problem is Parling needs to prove himself over a period. And who are we left with as primary candidate as likely starters?
Manu, Farrell ...

It's a good position to be in, but not a pleasant one.

by thomh Thu 09 May 2013, 4:11 pm

Cole has no captaincy experience as far as I know. The impression of him that comes through in the media is of an extremely hard-working and professional guy, but an understated and quite dry/witty character, rather than a natural motivator or someone who could talk to referees. Would he really be suited to captaincy? That impression could easily be wrong of course.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 09 May 2013, 4:17 pm

TH Prop is a lousy position to captain from I reckon. Cole is bright enough, but with a very dry (and black) sense of humour maybe not appropriate at all.

Just a feeling but I expect to see Owen Farrell as captain one day.

by thomh Thu 09 May 2013, 4:20 pm

I'm never keen on fly-half captains. Seems like they have enough decision making to worry about without having to deal with the referee as well.

Gatland's apparent policy of only picking forwards as captains does seem to make sense given that that's where the majority of penalties come from.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 09 May 2013, 4:23 pm

Think captains should be:

1) backrowers
2) locks
3) hookers
4) scrum half

then if nobody is feasible from there then look at other positions

by HongKongCherry Thu 09 May 2013, 4:28 pm

Props shouldn't be captains as they spend 80 minutes trying to cheat the ref, so it's not a great grounding to then influence them positively.

by RubyGuby Thu 09 May 2013, 4:31 pm

Sean Fitpatrick and John Smit are probably 2 of the most successful Captains out there thumbsup

by thomh Thu 09 May 2013, 4:35 pm

Both hookers (Smit played prop a bit of course though)

by Geordie Thu 09 May 2013, 4:50 pm

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Can you imagine the 'meedja' furore if 'Captain Fantastic' was dropped for the AIs? It'd be a good test of Lancasters resolve if nothing else.

It possibly could happen in a year or two......but NOT by the AI's Shocked

AND the challengers are going to have put in some serious performances and consistency to take that shirt off him...

by propdavid_london Thu 09 May 2013, 4:54 pm

I would prefer a back rower as Capt. Although, it would be wrong to exclude backs with leadership qualities -
BOD, Carling, Hastings all were good national captains.

You will always need a pack leader, but he doesnt have to be the Capt.
Perhaps Twelvetrees or Tompkins might develop qualities.
Mike Brown has captained Quins before.

by Geordie Thu 09 May 2013, 4:56 pm

For the forseeable future the England back row (when the full squad is together) is going to be (hopefully)

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

You have two Captains there alone...and its a pretty damn impressive back row.

by propdavid_london Thu 09 May 2013, 4:58 pm

Agree with that GeordieFalcon.
SL always goes on about building his leadership group.

by Effervescing Elephant Thu 09 May 2013, 4:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Effervescing Elephant wrote:Can you imagine the 'meedja' furore if 'Captain Fantastic' was dropped for the AIs? It'd be a good test of Lancasters resolve if nothing else.

It possibly could happen in a year or two......but NOT by the AI's

AND the challengers are going to have put in some serious performances and consistency to take that shirt off him...

Wasn't suggesting for a second that it was in any way likely, just trying to imagine the howls of anguish from the papers if were to happen.

by Guest Thu 09 May 2013, 5:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:For the forseeable future the England back row (when the full squad is together) is going to be (hopefully)

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

You have two Captains there alone...and its a pretty damn impressive back row.

England summer tour of Argentina - Page 10 33915093

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 09 May 2013, 5:24 pm

I'd have Tom Croft in there probably at the expense of Robshaw on current form. But it's all speculation.

It'll all look different in November.

by thomh Thu 09 May 2013, 5:31 pm

In fairness Croft, Robshaw and Wood have been consistently considered our three best flankers for 18 months now. It's just that injuries have meant they've only all been available for two games.

Lancaster's solution was to start all three of them.

by king_carlos Thu 09 May 2013, 6:34 pm

I can't see a backrow without at least one of Wood, Robshaw or Croft in it in the near future so I expect one of those 3 will be captain depending on injury, selection, form, etc.

by majesticimperialman Thu 09 May 2013, 7:08 pm

Just watched the rugby club and Tom Wood name captain of England.

I am so pleased for him to get his chance.

by 100%beefy Thu 09 May 2013, 7:19 pm

Very surprised that Eng have dropped Robshaw from the tour, unless there is an arrangement for him to be on Lions standby it seems the final kick in the balls after England's 6 Nations. But, had it not been for injury Wood was always the first choice and the FEC way before Robshaw, if a quality 7 emerges then it will be hard for him to recover his standing.

by majesticimperialman Thu 09 May 2013, 8:07 pm

100%beefy. Robshaw as not been dropped he as been rested. Which i think is a good thing to be honest. What we dont want going forward towards 2015 rwc is (PLAYER BURN OUT).

I know the RWC is 2 years away but why push players too their and beyond theri limit and cause carrier injury?

by 100%beefy Thu 09 May 2013, 10:55 pm

you don't drop a captain when you are going on a crucial tour with a weakened squad...i guarantee you Robshaw is not rationalising it the way you are and the lions standby spin is unfortunate, either they are being rested or they are on standby but not both...i expect he is champing at the bit to get out there...and frankly with such a depleted squad i think the argies will feel england are there fr the taking

by Hound of Harrow Thu 09 May 2013, 11:33 pm

100%beefy wrote:you don't drop a captain when you are going on a crucial tour with a weakened squad...i guarantee you Robshaw is not rationalising it the way you are and the lions standby spin is unfortunate, either they are being rested or they are on standby but not both...i expect he is champing at the bit to get out there...and frankly with such a depleted squad i think the argies will feel england are there fr the taking

Sorry, but it was widely expected that Robshaw was not going on the England tour this summer. He played more minutes of rugby than any other England EPS player this season.

Also the 'are they being rested, or on standby' comment (in termsof Robshaw) is to ignore the fact that several players from other countries are being 'rested' this summer.

Read the various countries' summer tour threads for a balanced, overall view.

Many of the 'rested' players will be on injury replacement call up for the Lions.

by Hound of Harrow Thu 09 May 2013, 11:36 pm

PS - Tom Wood was earmarked for England captain when Lancaster took over, but then got injured.

by 100%beefy Thu 09 May 2013, 11:38 pm

Then explain why he has been told that the autumn tests captaincy will be decided on form and fitness at the time, how can he stake a claim when he is not touring? He is captain of england, seems to me that to be removed from that role now means he will be disadvantaged and constructively removed from that role in the autumn, hardly a vote of confidence in your capt but as i say i think it is partly fallout from the 6 nations...as you say Wood was preferred prior to injury, looks a little as if robshaw is being managed out.

by DaveM Thu 09 May 2013, 11:53 pm

No it doesn't, it looks like he's being rested by England because he's played a huge amount of rugby and the Argentina tour is a development tour intended largely to grow strength in depth. England and Kvesic will learn from Kvesic getting game time, if Robshaw had toured then I don't think either party would have taken much out of it.

As for the AIs, if he's playing well for Quins in the autumn then he'll almost certainly be the captain in the AI's, if he isn't then he probably won't (which is surely how it should be?).

by 100%beefy Fri 10 May 2013, 12:17 am

You don't rest your Capt if you think he is the future; it's vital he is involved in the tour to establish leadership and relationships with new players.....i am sure the wide expectation that he would be rested did not include Robshaw himself.
I think SL wants to have a look at his first choice skipper and if he has a stormer and eng win - unlikely - then i expect Wood to remain skipper come the autumn.

by lostinwales Fri 10 May 2013, 12:21 am

beefy wumup time.....

failure to read thread for relevant information followed by repeat of same argument again and again....

by Hound of Harrow Fri 10 May 2013, 12:21 am

100%beefy wrote:Then explain why he has been told that the autumn tests captaincy will be decided on form and fitness at the time, how can he stake a claim when he is not touring? He is captain of england, seems to me that to be removed from that role now means he will be disadvantaged and constructively removed from that role in the autumn, hardly a vote of confidence in your capt but as i say i think it is partly fallout from the 6 nations...as you say Wood was preferred prior to injury, looks a little as if robshaw is being managed out.

Robshaw doesn't have to stake a claim. Plus he hasn't been removed from any role; he's just not going on this tour. Neither are several other players.

Because of the EPS agreement a new squad will be named in July - i.e. after a summer tour, as per usual. Stock will then be taken of player performance as per normal The captain will then be announced prior to the AIs, if not earlier.

Given the way Lancaster operates, I would be surprised if Robshaw was not captain come November. One very poor showing by England (coupled with a very good one from Wales) does not mean that Robshaw will be ditched.

by Hound of Harrow Fri 10 May 2013, 12:24 am

Oh dear. Also your captain doesn't abdicate to 'concentrate on his own form'.

Come on mun - give it a rest.

Smile

by 100%beefy Fri 10 May 2013, 12:33 am

Hound of Harrow wrote:
100%beefy wrote:Then explain why he has been told that the autumn tests captaincy will be decided on form and fitness at the time, how can he stake a claim when he is not touring? He is captain of england, seems to me that to be removed from that role now means he will be disadvantaged and constructively removed from that role in the autumn, hardly a vote of confidence in your capt but as i say i think it is partly fallout from the 6 nations...as you say Wood was preferred prior to injury, looks a little as if robshaw is being managed out.

Robshaw doesn't have to stake a claim. Plus he hasn't been removed from any role; he's just not going on this tour. Neither are several other players.

Because of the EPS agreement a new squad will be named in July - i.e. after a summer tour, as per usual. Stock will then be taken of player performance as per normal The captain will then be announced prior to the AIs, if not earlier.

Given the way Lancaster operates, I would be surprised if Robshaw was not captain come November. One very poor showing by England (coupled with a very good one from Wales) does not mean that Robshaw will be ditched.

Oh dear how naive can you be

Of course he has to stake a claim, the tour is against top drawer opposition and he was the incumbent, he wasn't removed for injury but 'rest' and he has been removed from the role, he is no longer captain and has been told he will be considered on fitness and form in november. Sorry that is no way to treat a capt despite the 6 Nations result. If he were injured fair enough but SL can't even make his mind up...is he rested or on standby?

by Hound of Harrow Fri 10 May 2013, 12:51 am

Beefy, you have your agenda. I'll leave you to it.

Nos da.

by thomh Fri 10 May 2013, 8:03 am

100%beefy wrote:Then explain why he has been told that the autumn tests captaincy will be decided on form and fitness at the time, how can he stake a claim when he is not touring?

Form and fitness at the time, not form and fitness at the end of the previous season 5 months earlier. It's fairly typical for senior players to be missing from the Lions-year tours, so I don't see that it's a problem that he wont be around to meet the new players. No-one panicked on that basis when Johnson was made Lions captain in 2001, and it won't be a problem for Warburton or Heaslip with their summer tours.

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 8:49 am

100%Beefy,

I understand where your coming from but i disagree.

Argentina will be a tough tour, no doubt, but at the same time it will be majoritly a development team for them aswell as most of their stars are in Europe waiting for the Rugby Championship.

Thus its a perfect time to rest those players who've had a considerable number of games over the season or two...Robshaw, Ashton etc.

I have no doubt though that Lancaster IS taking the oppertunity to look at Woods captaincy...AND how the young pretender to the 7 crown Kvesic performs.
And im glad hes taken the decision to do so.

I have no doubt that Robshaw will be there in the AI's...Lancs is very loyal and Robshaw has been outstanding....but no one is irreplaceable...

by thomh Fri 10 May 2013, 9:29 am

Thing is if Lions selection is anything to go by then Wood's position could also be under threat by the Autumn, as I don't think he's a 7 at this level - certainly not alongside Croft. England shifted Haskell to 7 to accommodate Wood in 2011, so we can safely say he's set at 6, in which case Croft could easily keep him out of the team.

I'd pick Wood every time, but it's certainly possible.

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 9:45 am

Well yes, but Wood is a way superior player to Croft aside from giving away a little in the lineout...but i can cope with that as he's still excellent there.

Croft means we need to make up the balast in the Second Row...but with Wood you dont quite need to do that as he's a physical abrasive player great in the tight...something i dont believe Croft is exceptional at.

I guess it depends on what set up and balance you want in the team.

by RubyGuby Fri 10 May 2013, 9:48 am

Wood is your class act - Give him the 6 jersey and the Captaincy thumbsup

by nathan Fri 10 May 2013, 9:52 am

Didn't Robshaw come and say he'd like a rest. Perhaps he spoke to Lancaster and they both came to the conclusion it was for the best.

Love it how beefy it trying to make something out of this, you considered working for the Daily Mail at all?

by sickofwendy Fri 10 May 2013, 10:13 am

Are we sure 7 is the best position for kvesic?I'm not too sure.myself.
I actually think he will be an 8 and Fraser or Wallace will be better options at open-side.
Beefy has a point in what he's saying but I don't think it will bear fruit short term.
The truth is that we have to find the right balance for our back row,gonna be some tough decisions.

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 10:44 am

Indeed there is Wendy...but i think the balance of the pack is dictated by the front 5.

If we have a monstrous second row combo, and a huge front row ...we can afford the likes of Croft at 6 who we can afford to be away from the tight confrontations a bit more than a 6 should.
But if we go with the more athletic front 5 we have been playing...i think we need Wood in there for more power.

Kvesic should get most of his gametime with Glos at 7, and i think he should stay there.
Fraser has been hugely impressive this season mind.

by sickofwendy Fri 10 May 2013, 10:59 am

Croft,robshaw,Morgan worked well in 2012 but wood is also a fine player,I'm just a little worried how we fit them all in.Croft seems to create huge debate about his pros/cons but the fact is that most international coaches would have him in their squad,as soon as he was cleared by the medics lancs had him on the bench and started him the match after that.
It was plain to see that he didn't perform well but he still made the lions because of his reputation ahead of both wood and robshaw.
The more I think of it beef could be right(long term).

For all my talk of Fraser I'm a little worried he could suffer second season syndrome.

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 11:05 am

Make no mistake though Wendy...between now and the end of the AI's is gonna be fascinating if your an England fan i think...

by sickofwendy Fri 10 May 2013, 11:12 am

It can only be a good thing we are starting to develop some options throughout the side.A few months back hooker and lock seemed bare but not anymore. Smile

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 11:17 am

Absolutely...lock was a big worry for me...but it could become a very fruitful position.

by lostinwales Fri 10 May 2013, 11:22 am

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/182473.html

Looks like Lancs is looking to upgrade the threequarters

by Geordie Fri 10 May 2013, 11:28 am

We know hes good with the media...BUT, thats some of the best news ive heard from lancaster for ages.
Maybe hes recognised that his hard working team ideas is essential...BUT you need more attacking flair in there...

Its a good sign...

by Chjw131 Fri 10 May 2013, 11:30 am

Some strong arguments about the make-up of the BR going forward that's for certain.

I actually tend to agree with the idea that Robshaw's place is vulnerable. It is right to say that but for injury, Wood would have been Captain from the start of Lancs term. Robshaw has done very well in his role and his work-rate has been outstanding but he isn't a stand-out sort of player in any specific role. I think had he kept to 6 he might well have been.

The problem really comes down to balance as GF highlighted. This I think is Lancaster's dream team BR:

6. T Croft
7. C Clark
8. T Wood (c)

It's only speculation I grant you but he sees Clark as a 7, Croft as his line-out king and Wood as an invaluable captain. To me it's a terrifyingly poor BR and in reality I think even Lancs is coming round to the idea that it doesn't work.

Getting Croft involved is the problem. I think you need to look at the back 5 as a whole to get Croft in. Here's a possible solution:

4. D Attwood
5. C Lawes
6. T Croft
7. T Wood
8. B Morgan

With Croft leading the line-out that could be very effective around the park and in the line-out, a crucial set-piece.

Someone said above that Haskell was moved to 7 to accommodate Wood at 6. That's not strictly true, it was a toss-up between who wore 6 and 7 and if you look at the work Wood does at the breakdown, his turn-over rate and his speed to breakdowns around the park he could play as an extremely effective 7 at international level.

by Alex_Germany Fri 10 May 2013, 11:39 am

Chjw131 wrote:
Here's the team I would pick from that squad:

1. A Corbisiero
2. R Buchanan
3. D Wilson
4. D Attwood
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan
9. R Wigglesworth
10. F Burns
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. K Eastmond
14. C Wade
15. M Brown

Add in Launchbury and Care, and perhaps Robshaw, and that team would have a good chance against the Lions. (Probably a class Tighthead and Hooker short of a win).

With England and the Lions both playing Barbarians sides, I reckon it would be better to just see England v Lions.

It could though lead to serious embarassement for the Lions. Plus perhaps too many injuries.

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