Where does Henson go from here?

First topic message reminder :

After 2 matches for London Welsh this season, will Mr Reliable play in the exotic rugby championship or will he move on?

Henson divides opinion like Thatcher.

Where does he go from here? That implies he's somewhere now. Physically and literally yes, he's obviously somewhere. In terms of an upward curve or development of his test career he's where he's been for quite some time: nowhere. The only player who commands so much attention based on so little is Cipriani. Henson has played far more tests and has far more natural talent but both have been in the rugby wilderness for similar periods and both should be treated as such. There is no second coming. They're not coming back. Think of their careers as dead. Johnny Wilkinson has more of a chance coming back to test rugby and his chances are zero. I appreciate the frustration. Nick Evans would be a welcome addition to the All Blacks squad but his return is not going to happen. I think it's healtheir for you if you accept the same is true of Henson.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Shanks was IMO the better of the two, although only just. He was one of those who did alot of work to provide the space and time for others to look good in. By having Shanks outside of him, and Steve Jones on his other side (ah almost made the old commentators mistake), Henson had two players that never seemed to look impressive on their own, but were really good at making others shine. And it was similar at club level with Parker at outside centre, and Shaun Connor at fly half, although Hook did play that fly half too.

I agree that Shanks was a great and shamefully underated player, but he was never as talented as Henson. They complimented each others styles and strengths almost perfectly, and were for me were the most effective and balanced (in a way we can only imagine at the moment) centre partnership I have ever seen in a Wales shirt, and I include the side of the 70s which I had the pleasure to watch in their pomp, in that assessment.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

offload wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The only emotion I get when discussing Henson is of anger, there isn't a player alive or dead who could boast his skill set level in it's entirity, yet it all got flittered away because of his hunger for fame and fortune!!

He isn't the first and he won't be the last, but it really hurts to think right now Wales could add a fully fit, fully firing Henson to their backline...

Henson the most talented ever to come out of this world!!.......... come on man.

Played for one game for Llanelli RFC in 2000 and I saw him when we beat Llanelli and scored over 50 points albeit probably only about 18 then he didn't impress. World Junior Player 2001 and to a major extent that was it, his signature years probably came when he was supported by . During his initial stint with the then Swansea RFC, Arwel Thomas was regarded as more naturally talented, faster, more aware, equally good distribution and except for his small statue and being seven years older would have kept him out of the side much longer.

I personally think the Henson halcyon years were 2004-2005, however when you looked at those games you would have seen a more naturally talented but less risky, less self promoting hence a much less eye catching centre that not only provided all the space that Henson needed. A certain centre who in 2004 scored EIGHT tries in FOUR games, he was selected and probably would have been a shoe-in to play for the Lions along with BOD in 2005 except for a cruel knee injury forced his withdrawal, and another injury robbed him yet again in 2009. BOD had no time for Henson but quoted that "Shanks" was the centre that was the pivot for Wales in the 2005 slam year, and could have been the difference winning and losing the Lions test series

Tom Shanklin was in my mind a more naturally gifted player than Henson, who all but for brief period has never been able to cut it at the highest level

Spot on Flyhalf. Shanks was the standout centre in the 05 win. Henson just bores me - I couldn't care less what he does next.

2 clear cases of dislike for the man clouding your judgement...

Shanklin was an excellent centre and true pro but he was very limited, his distribution was sloppy, didn't have a decent boot, and his vision wasn't very good at all. He was an excellent 13 though in that he hit the line hard and fast, and was able to scramble with his pace to recover in wider channells, but talent in regards to shanklin? Give it up boys

I think the tan has clouded your judgement, I am talking about a guys talent as a footballer not my likes or dislike of him as a person. When he has had the chance to perform out of the goldfish bowl (of the cowboy hatted fair weather posh n becks wannabees fans), then his obvious lack of natural talent at the highest level has seen him been shifted from 10 to 12 to 15 to 12 and now to 10............. he couldn't shift Stephen Jones at international level or his clone James Hook at regional level, was pushed out to centre then FB then to centre, saved by Gatland and Edwards who taught him how to tackle properly, and then blew it.
Now its been said that he really trains harder and longer than anyone else so obviously has always been match fit all through his career and yet hasn't had the required skill-set when players sussed him out to take himself to an higher level and out-perform them. Reminds me of Alex Higgins a risk-taker who realised that wasn't really what natural talent is all about and then became ragged troublemaker who shone brilliantly once or twice in an otherwise very mediocre career. I have to admit tho he had world class hands and awesome distribution off left and right shoulder

By the way Shanklin had a fantastic left peg, he could be delicate or hump the ball from his left foot. A much more talented footballer of the two if truth be known

With that type of xenophobia you've lost the argument by default...

And when you mean obvious lack of natural talent do you mean the internationals he shone in or the lions tour he was messed about in? Because IMO you don't get lions call ups by a coach who despises you lightly.

You clearly dislike the guy, and the welsh for some reason, and your opinion has descencded into laughable dribble mate!

This is not an argument
This is a riposte to your statement that you think he was the greatest thing to come out of the ocean, and how can you say I dislike the Welsh, what's the basis of your argument?. I have worked and lived in wales during the working week quite a number of times, made a point of going to watch the Os and the Scarlets as much as I could when I was down there, and think in general they are a great nation.

I actually played against his old man once and he was salt of the earth, and I had 45 mins chatting with Gavin and Andy Powell in a Cardiff pub during a Spring 2008 and both at that time were very cool guys. So this is not about the player as a person, its the ill conceived myth perpetuated mostly by people you rarely see at a common or garden rugby ground, probably watching Cardiff FC in the main.

By the way he was not mucked about at all on the Lions tour, its just that in the training paddock 3 out of 4 coaches didn't think he was good enough to start the 1st test, the resulting fall-out from that is since well documented "autobiography" and resulting apology to his Welsh team mates. He shone for approx one and half seasons during 2004-2005, he has a good slam six weeks under Gatland as a defensive backs captain playing in the centre, That's about it, his lifestyle and the continued absence off the playing environment perpetuated the myth of his supernatural talents fuelled as I said not by the real true through thick and thin come what may fans but by the fair weather short sleeves big arms, pink cowboy hats come out for the 6Ns only bridgade

In all honesty, he was a good player and had a couple of good seasons. He then never backed that up with consistent performances

His stock got higher and higher the more he was off the field, and about to make a come back

All I can say is that I saw him play his first game for Swansea RFC and followed him till he left The Ospreys. He had a wonderful talent. Anyone who says differently either saw him play only occasionally or is Wumming, or, because they don't like him, refuse to acknowledge the obvious truth of the matter. Through a combination of bad luck (injuries, a preposterously long ban, exaggerated press reports about his behaviour and, some would say, Woodward's treatment of him with the Lions) bad advice (the book) bad judgement (letting his marriage lead to a "celebrity" lifestyle) his starting to believe the media hype he never reached the heights he should have reached. He has to take a lot of the blame for not being able to see what was happening and taking the correct course of action but there were many other people who could have helped him but did not. I will always be glad that I saw him at his best. I will always be sorry that it all went wrong.

In SA players like Joost and Percy were genuine celebrities, always in the trash mags, dating glamour models, partying way too hard.... yet rugby always came first. Thats a big difference between 2 guys with RWC winners medals and a chap like Henson.

A lot of similarities with the proteas Herschelle Gibbs in terms of lots of hype, crazy talent, up and down form and a destructive life in the papers. He was a all-starring flyhalf for WP juniors in his day... according to Percy he was/is the most talented youth player he has yet to see.

Back to Wee weeing his talent up the wall? - Oh for a player with Wilkinsons application and ciprianis / hensons talent

Scarpia wrote:All I can say is that I saw him play his first game for Swansea RFC and followed him till he left The Ospreys. He had a wonderful talent. Anyone who says differently either saw him play only occasionally or is Wumming, or, because they don't like him, refuse to acknowledge the obvious truth of the matter. Through a combination of bad luck (injuries, a preposterously long ban, exaggerated press reports about his behaviour and, some would say, Woodward's treatment of him with the Lions) bad advice (the book) bad judgement (letting his marriage lead to a "celebrity" lifestyle) his starting to believe the media hype he never reached the heights he should have reached. He has to take a lot of the blame for not being able to see what was happening and taking the correct course of action but there were many other people who could have helped him but did not. I will always be glad that I saw him at his best. I will always be sorry that it all went wrong.

I saw his game in 2000, when he played for Llanelli RFC v Edinburgh and we put over 50 points against then, even at that tender we only heard about his hair before he went on the pitch...... he didn't impress us that game. I have seen some wonderful performances against some very good regional level teams but cometh the hour cometh the man and for every game he impressed in e.g. 2004 Wales v NZ, he then had a row of dire ones. Its not wumming to say he had a talent but then so did Arwel Thomas who IMHO was much more talented around 2000-01, I also think that Nicky Robinson had more natural talent at flyhalf than Henson, so did Hook who many said was more talented. There were more accurate kickers, more destructive tacklers, better defensive and offensive players, faster and quicker 10/12s.......... it cannae be denied he had superb world class distribution and apart from Regan King there wasn't a better passer in the welsh regional game at the time, Yes he had talent but not world class talent or at least he never revealed it

Woodward in reality was the one coach out of the Lions coaching team who was prepared to risk him 1st test, it was the others who told him he was making a grave mistake in selecting him as his performance in training left much to be desired. Thankfully SCW listened to them and took the flack in the press

What I don't understand is if he had this undoubted talent then why couldn't he even keep a hold of the 10 shirt for the Os and Wales?, why was he often selected at FB for the Os and then centre....... this was before his "bad luck" by the way

You say he had undoubted talent, most would say he had undoubted potential to maybe perform at the highest level.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Scarpia wrote:All I can say is that I saw him play his first game for Swansea RFC and followed him till he left The Ospreys. He had a wonderful talent. Anyone who says differently either saw him play only occasionally or is Wumming, or, because they don't like him, refuse to acknowledge the obvious truth of the matter. Through a combination of bad luck (injuries, a preposterously long ban, exaggerated press reports about his behaviour and, some would say, Woodward's treatment of him with the Lions) bad advice (the book) bad judgement (letting his marriage lead to a "celebrity" lifestyle) his starting to believe the media hype he never reached the heights he should have reached. He has to take a lot of the blame for not being able to see what was happening and taking the correct course of action but there were many other people who could have helped him but did not. I will always be glad that I saw him at his best. I will always be sorry that it all went wrong.

I saw his game in 2000, when he played for Llanelli RFC v Edinburgh and we put over 50 points against then, even at that tender we only heard about his hair before he went on the pitch...... he didn't impress us that game. I have seen some wonderful performances against some very good regional level teams but cometh the hour cometh the man and for every game he impressed in e.g. 2004 Wales v NZ, he then had a row of dire ones. Its not wumming to say he had a talent but then so did Arwel Thomas who IMHO was much more talented around 2000-01, I also think that Nicky Robinson had more natural talent at flyhalf than Henson, so did Hook who many said was more talented. There were more accurate kickers, more destructive tacklers, better defensive and offensive players, faster and quicker 10/12s.......... it cannae be denied he had superb world class distribution and apart from Regan King there wasn't a better passer in the welsh regional game at the time, Yes he had talent but not world class talent or at least he never revealed it

Woodward in reality was the one coach out of the Lions coaching team who was prepared to risk him 1st test, it was the others who told him he was making a grave mistake in selecting him as his performance in training left much to be desired. Thankfully SCW listened to them and took the flack in the press

What I don't understand is if he had this undoubted talent then why couldn't he even keep a hold of the 10 shirt for the Os and Wales?, why was he often selected at FB for the Os and then centre....... this was before his "bad luck" by the way

You say he had undoubted talent, most would say he had undoubted potential to maybe perform at the highest level.

Fly I need you to clear things up for me...

Do you not consider Wales and the lions the highest level?

Do you honestly beleive he couldn't cut it?

Do you think players who aren't extremely talented win world young player of the year?

Can you name a player living or dead who could boast his all round attributes?

And let me be clear, he was an average player, poor performer at times, I don't rate the guy at all in the slightest, infact I didn't like the guy when I met him, but doubting his talent, ability and therefore wasted potential shows a certain lack of nous for the participants of our game.

he wasn't average, he was outstanding and world class...but he was also a wastrel and frittered that natural talent away. Now he shoudl go back to a region and start performing for a couple of seasons so that at least his last record is a devent one

thebluesmancometh wrote:And let me be clear, he was an average player, poor performer at times, I don't rate the guy at all in the slightest, infact I didn't like the guy when I met him, but doubting his talent, ability and therefore wasted potential shows a certain lack of nous for the participants of our game.

Lets put this in perspective

2001 IRB International U19 Player of the Year............

That's UNDER 19 not UNDER 21........... lets say it again UNDER 19

Can you tell me who was the under IRB International U19 Player of the Year in 2002...... 2003....... 2004.......2005 yawn..... I can't because most haven really kicked on from there even tho they all had undoubted talent Potential e.g. Luke McAlister and Isaia Toeava probably been the best of an average bunch... Jean-Baptiste Peyras-Loustalet ONE CAP for France........ Jeremy Thrush NZ NO CAPS......... Josh Holmes Aus NO Int CAPs

Conversely in the same year as Henson won UNDER 19 the following can be seen

2001 IRB Player of the Year
Keith Wood (Ireland)
Nominated
Brian O'Driscoll
Jonny Wilkinson

BOD got nominated three times from 2001 onwards, JW twice,

Now since 2001 Henson hasn't once even been nominated to be IRB International Player Of The Year, however Shane Williams won it, hell even Owen Farrell, Ryan Jones, Steve Thompson (Eng) and our own Mike Blair have been nominated so can we say that Mike Blair or Steve Thompson has undoubted talent or can we say they were pretty good in that year of nomination

I am not doubting Henson had talent (as so many other players) and he had potential, maybe even enough potential to be a world class player, but not to be nominated even once in all those years he played, even in his most Halcyon heady years of 2004 and 2005 he didn't even get with a smell of being recognised for this BLUGEONING TALENT that you have us believe he has

Sorry mate but you are living the dream

If so why won't you answer my questions?

Why duck them for meaningless facts about other players?

Someone wins a WPOTY an U19 WPOTY every year, whats your point?

I'm not saying Henson is a good player, or that I'd like him to sign for my club, or try int rugby again, I'm saying he had the most talent I have ever seen in a rugby player, he had the most rounded skillset of any player dead or alive, but didn't realise his potential.

You seem to be getting potential and talent confused though, maybe if you go and look up what each is and get back to me...

I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

they are not meaningless
because you banged on about his talent as WORLD JUNIOR PLAYER OF THE YEAR

Yes there are players who are not extremely talented who have won the IRB junior world player of the year

So I believe I have answered your question

Can he cut it?
NO............... if I was you I would look at his performance levels for
Ospreys
Saracens
RC Toulon
Cardiff Blues
London Welsh

I think that answers your question on can he cut it, and not all of them must have been his "bad luck"

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

He's an odd one, quite reclusive by nature, pretty quiet and hard to gauge, so why he has tried to do what he has baffles me. Ye he is much smaller than I gave him credit for too, but I'm 6'5 so everyone seems smaller than I gave them credit for (Gordon Darcy REALLY shocked me)

Cyril you dirty sod you, what were you doing in Reflex in Cardiff, like I don't already know...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

He's an odd one, quite reclusive by nature, pretty quiet and hard to gauge, so why he has tried to do what he has baffles me. Ye he is much smaller than I gave him credit for too, but I'm 6'5 so everyone seems smaller than I gave them credit for (Gordon Darcy REALLY shocked me)

Cyril you dirty sod you, what were you doing in Reflex in Cardiff, like I don't already know...

I'm 6'2 so yeah I expected him to be bigger too.

Heh, I have no class and sharked in Reflex too often than is good for me

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

He's an odd one, quite reclusive by nature, pretty quiet and hard to gauge, so why he has tried to do what he has baffles me. Ye he is much smaller than I gave him credit for too, but I'm 6'5 so everyone seems smaller than I gave them credit for (Gordon Darcy REALLY shocked me)

Cyril you dirty sod you, what were you doing in Reflex in Cardiff, like I don't already know...

I'm 6'2 so yeah I expected him to be bigger too.

Heh, I have no class and sharked in Reflex too often than is good for me

We've all made that mistake, it's when you stumble out of there unsuccesfull and stagger to Flares you really have troubles...

Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

James Hook.... Alive
Phil Bennet..... Alive (country mile more talented at a 10 and 15)
Nicky Robinson...... Alive (much more talent as an overall footballer)

and that's just me thinking of alive welsh players off the cuff

other players who are better all rounders (i.e. could play wing centre FB or FH)

Andrew Mehrtens
Mark Ella
Hugo Porta
Phillipe Sella
Mike Gibson

Off the cuff as I am eating a ham n cheese sarnie

Then again I wouldn't know much about talent as I was a bloody blindside flanker (like you at 6' 5" you Henson didn't seem that big but I bet he hasn't an oz of fat so would look smaller)

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

James Hook.... Alive

No chance, he doesn't have the same agility, outright pace, he has always had a tendancy to do too much himself, his boot is nowhere near as big as Hensons was and his defence is laughable in every form!!!

Next...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

He's an odd one, quite reclusive by nature, pretty quiet and hard to gauge, so why he has tried to do what he has baffles me. Ye he is much smaller than I gave him credit for too, but I'm 6'5 so everyone seems smaller than I gave them credit for (Gordon Darcy REALLY shocked me)

Cyril you dirty sod you, what were you doing in Reflex in Cardiff, like I don't already know...

I'm 6'2 so yeah I expected him to be bigger too.

Heh, I have no class and sharked in Reflex too often than is good for me

We've all made that mistake, it's when you stumble out of there unsuccesfull and stagger to Flares you really have troubles...

Yeah, especially when you know you're going backwards in time and downwards in quality

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

pure quality. You want to try stand up comedy.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

pure quality. You want to try stand up comedy.

Try answering the question, Eating a teaspoon full of cinnamon sounds easy too, try it!!!

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I met Henson with Charlotte in Reflex in Cardiff about 7(?) years ago. He seemed ok. I shook Charlotte's hand and wished them both the best. He's smaller than you think.

He's an odd one, quite reclusive by nature, pretty quiet and hard to gauge, so why he has tried to do what he has baffles me. Ye he is much smaller than I gave him credit for too, but I'm 6'5 so everyone seems smaller than I gave them credit for (Gordon Darcy REALLY shocked me)

Cyril you dirty sod you, what were you doing in Reflex in Cardiff, like I don't already know...

I'm 6'2 so yeah I expected him to be bigger too.

Heh, I have no class and sharked in Reflex too often than is good for me

We've all made that mistake, it's when you stumble out of there unsuccesfull and stagger to Flares you really have troubles...

Yeah, especially when you know you're going backwards in time and downwards in quality

Oh yes, who said time travel was impossible...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

James Hook.... Alive

No chance, he doesn't have the same agility, outright pace, he has always had a tendancy to do too much himself, his boot is nowhere near as big as Hensons was and his defence is laughable in every form!!!

Next...

Simple for me............ Hook and Henson are what 2-3 yrs difference, Henson in his prime had the 10 shirt ripped from him by Hook....... that's a direct confrontation for the 10 shirt...... eureka one is better than the other...........ergo on I rest my case

By the way Hook than had shades of Henson when Biggar came along........... proves the point of potential v perceived talent

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

James Hook.... Alive

No chance, he doesn't have the same agility, outright pace, he has always had a tendancy to do too much himself, his boot is nowhere near as big as Hensons was and his defence is laughable in every form!!!

Next...

Simple for me............ Hook and Henson are what 2-3 yrs difference, Henson in his prime had the 10 shirt ripped from him by Hook....... that's a direct confrontation for the 10 shirt...... eureka one is better than the other...........ergo on I rest my case

By the way Hook than had shades of Henson when Biggar came along........... proves the point of potential v perceived talent

Henson was far more rounded than Hook, and his attributes leant themselves better to the 12 shirt, Hook showed promise and was shoehorned in.

Do you think that Biggar is more talented and rounded than Hook then???

I'm still waiting for this player who has more talent than Henson, if Hooks the best you can think of...

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

Plenty

BOD

Carter

There are two who are much much better in every aspect of the game

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

James Hook.... Alive

No chance, he doesn't have the same agility, outright pace, he has always had a tendancy to do too much himself, his boot is nowhere near as big as Hensons was and his defence is laughable in every form!!!

Next...

Simple for me............ Hook and Henson are what 2-3 yrs difference, Henson in his prime had the 10 shirt ripped from him by Hook....... that's a direct confrontation for the 10 shirt...... eureka one is better than the other...........ergo on I rest my case

By the way Hook than had shades of Henson when Biggar came along........... proves the point of potential v perceived talent

Henson was far more rounded than Hook, and his attributes leant themselves better to the 12 shirt, Hook showed promise and was shoehorned in.

Do you think that Biggar is more talented and rounded than Hook then???

I'm still waiting for this player who has more talent than Henson, if Hooks the best you can think of...

As I said they had a gun fight at the OK Ospreylia......... when Henson was in his peerless prime (sounds like a robot that) and Henson clearly didn't have the perceived talent and Hook took the shirt of him..... how much more unadulterated proof do you need than a direct comparison of their skill set..... to be honest after that Henson started on his slippery slope to...... well London Welsh sometimes player

I think that Biggar is more talented than Hook is at 10 yes

and by the way I have sent you this but will copy and paste again

"James Hook.... Alive
Phil Bennet..... Alive (country mile more talented at a 10 and 15)
Nicky Robinson...... Alive (much more talent as an overall footballer)

and that's just me thinking of alive welsh players off the cuff

other players who are better all rounders (i.e. could play wing centre FB or FH)

Andrew Mehrtens
Mark Ella
Hugo Porta
Phillipe Sella
Mike Gibson

Off the cuff as I am eating a ham n cheese sarnie

Then again I wouldn't know much about talent as I was a bloody blindside flanker (like you at 6' 5" you Henson didn't seem that big but I bet he hasn't an oz of fat so would look smaller)"

TJ wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Flyhalf

The question was name me another player alive or dead with the same level and rounded skillset Henson had (key word had mind)

Plenty

BOD

Carter

There are two who are much much better in every aspect of the game

Really so BOD was able to kick a ball accurately from one 22 to the other? He was able to hit 60 metre kicks at goal?? BOD was an extremely clever player, had an instinct for the game, was strong, and had a decent distribution, but Henson's distribution was far better, he was as quick if not quicker, hit as hard, and had a varied kicking game to boot. BOD was an excellent 13 but was not as rounded as Henson by a long shot.

Carter I think is the closest thing to a match we have, his kicking game is immense, but he doesn't have Hensons power in the boot, his defence is nearly as good, but Carters agility isn't that great, a lot of his line breaks are straight running after pack pressure.

I'm not saying those 2 players didn't acheive more, weren't the better players, or that I'd pick Henson over either, but none could boast Hensons natural talent!!

Just for the record fly...

9% body fat

And don't go changing the goalposts by using footballer, are you really claiming Hook, the guy who got pushed over his own try line by ROG is a defencive match for Henson?

Phil Bennet was a differing era, and I never like making comparisons between 2 players in different era's, why I don't generally do the GOAT threads. Bennet was immensely talented, but couldnt do what Henson could.

My argument stands, in all the years Ive watched rugby 3 players have stood out as immensely rounded and talented...

Dan Carter

Gavin Henson

and

Frans Steyn

99% of players have weaknesses, but then maybe the odd strength that could hide a weakness, but those 3 players are probably the most talented, naturally gifted, and rounded on the planet. Strange really how they have all gone in their careers, Carter the workhorse, absolute pro will probably go down in history, Steyn became difficult to coach and doesn't really try despite being a club and country star, and Henson flittered it all away for fame and fortune(ish)

If you want to talk about natural talent and waste of it you don't have to go much further than Rupeni Caucau.

You can talk about potential all you like. Balshaw had talent as did Tait and look where that got them in the English set up. Plenty of potential but didn't measure up. Plenty of reasons why but most of them weren't their own doing. You get the sense with Henson that most of what happened to him was self inflicted much like Caucau and for that reason both players evoke no sympathy from rugby fans. They dug their own graves. They had the talent but that's only part of it. You have to put your head down, take criticism and seek ways to perfect your game and always look for improvements. I don't care how much natural talent a player has. It's about consistency and longevity. Henson shouldn't be remembered for the player who could have been so much more. That's disrespectful who earned the right to be remembered as that takes dedication and sacrifice. Henson should be remembered as somebody who thought himself above the game and was made out to be the fool for thinking so.

By the way, BOD may not kick but his distribution is better than decent and his scavenging like a loose forward is far superior to Henson. Just admit you have a bromance with Henson blues!

Bluesman - come off it. Bod not as good at distributing the ball as Henson - have you ever actually watched a game of rugby? How about this for skill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

or this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPOqXJbkPVs

plenty more on youtube couple of 40 m drop goals if you want kicks, plenty of fabulous passing skills.

Henson might have had a big boot but he wasn't that accurate hence he generally never took the short-medium kicks range (Jones/Sweeney/Robinson/Hook) all preferred before him.

BOD actually has dropped more goals at international level than Henson, out of hand he was more accurate than Henson and certainly could kick from one 22 to another, but rarely kicked as much as he (BOD) had greater vision/awareness and took the better options.

Henson was generally poor as a tackler even if it was clouded in his one good season for Wales as a defensive captain when he was immense, his defensive positioning was generally average (how times did hook look at him aghast when he couldn't even be bothered to turn on his heels to defend). BOD on the other hand never missed a tackle or wasn't aware of the defensive line.

Offensive attacking............ oh for goodness sake by even suggesting that Henson came close is just laughable, on every aspect in attack BOD was better. If you want to see undoubted potential at a young age look at BODs individual try in the 1st test 2001 Lions v Aus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2gy0sfFOFA or if you want further proof how about a year earlier when he was just 21 he scored THREE tries against a bloody good French side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eobt8hcxzk

Distribution and good hands Henson very much nudged ahead.

Hence BOD was nominated THREE times IRB World Player in ten years, shoe-in centre for the Lions 2001, 2005, 2009, and very well could be 2013.......... Henson well during that time........... ahem married Church and went into reality TV

This is silly now

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:If you want to talk about natural talent and waste of it you don't have to go much further than Rupeni Caucau.

You can talk about potential all you like. Balshaw had talent as did Tait and look where that got them in the English set up. Plenty of potential but didn't measure up. Plenty of reasons why but most of them weren't their own doing. You get the sense with Henson that most of what happened to him was self inflicted much like Caucau and for that reason both players evoke no sympathy from rugby fans. They dug their own graves. They had the talent but that's only part of it. You have to put your head down, take criticism and seek ways to perfect your game and always look for improvements. I don't care how much natural talent a player has. It's about consistency and longevity. Henson shouldn't be remembered for the player who could have been so much more. That's disrespectful who earned the right to be remembered as that takes dedication and sacrifice. Henson should be remembered as somebody who thought himself above the game and was made out to be the fool for thinking so.

By the way, BOD may not kick but his distribution is better than decent and his scavenging like a loose forward is far superior to Henson. Just admit you have a bromance with Henson blues!

hahaha

Caucau couldve been one of the greats!!!

I don't particularly like Henson, as I said earlier the only thing I feel with regards to him is anger, having the opportunity to play for Wales with such a gift he had and decided a bit of cheap TV was worth throwing it away!!

I have to concede BOD's ability on the ground, but he didn't always do that, he worked at it and becamse strong, a lesson to youngsters who play out wide, wider ball = more turnover opportunities, every wing and centre should be working with 7's on a regular basis at academy level IMHO!!!

flyhalffactory wrote:Henson might have had a big boot but he wasn't that accurate hence he generally never took the short-medium kicks range (Jones/Sweeney/Robinson/Hook) all preferred before him.

BOD actually has dropped more goals at international level than Henson, out of hand he was more accurate than Henson and certainly could kick from one 22 to another, but rarely kicked as much as he (BOD) had greater vision/awareness and took the better options.

Henson was generally poor as a tackler even if it was clouded in his one good season for Wales as a defensive captain when he was immense, his defensive positioning was generally average (how times did hook look at him aghast when he couldn't even be bothered to turn on his heels to defend). BOD on the other hand never missed a tackle or wasn't aware of the defensive line.

Offensive attacking............ oh for goodness sake by even suggesting that Henson came close is just laughable, on every aspect in attack BOD was better. If you want to see undoubted potential at a young age look at BODs individual try in the 1st test 2001 Lions v Aus

Distribution and good hands Henson very much nudged ahead.

Hence BOD was nominated THREE times IRB World Player in ten years, shoe-in centre for the Lions 2001, 2005, 2009, and very well could be 2013.......... Henson well during that time........... ahem married Church and went into reality TV

This is silly now

It is getting silly, your even moving the goalposts for a third time

We can agree to disagree mainly because I'm bored of this, but BOD was never rounded player, he was a great 13, had the attack game ball in hand and could cover his 12 and wing in defence, never had the type of game to interchange positions, was never rounded enough to cover both centre positions, 10 and FB before he was 24. BOD was the BETTER player, he acheived more, and he would be my pick over Henson, but naturally talented and rounded he wasn't.

I'm out now, because youve stopped listening to reason.

But by defending a person who doesn't deserve to be defended, you, in turn, arouse anger yourself mate. Just consign him to the dustbin of history where he belongs and concentrate on players who are worthy of remembrance like little Shane, Mike Gibbs, Barry John et al. Plenty to choose from. Every time you build Henson up, an angel breaks its wings and falls on a Welsh rugby legend and he dies.

Bluesman - you are the one who will not listen when people pick massive holes in your argument.

Bod is a superior more rounded and more talented player than Henson - and as for Carter - in a different and better league with far greater natural talent

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Henson might have had a big boot but he wasn't that accurate hence he generally never took the short-medium kicks range (Jones/Sweeney/Robinson/Hook) all preferred before him.

BOD actually has dropped more goals at international level than Henson, out of hand he was more accurate than Henson and certainly could kick from one 22 to another, but rarely kicked as much as he (BOD) had greater vision/awareness and took the better options.

Henson was generally poor as a tackler even if it was clouded in his one good season for Wales as a defensive captain when he was immense, his defensive positioning was generally average (how times did hook look at him aghast when he couldn't even be bothered to turn on his heels to defend). BOD on the other hand never missed a tackle or wasn't aware of the defensive line.

Offensive attacking............ oh for goodness sake by even suggesting that Henson came close is just laughable, on every aspect in attack BOD was better. If you want to see undoubted potential at a young age look at BODs individual try in the 1st test 2001 Lions v Aus

Distribution and good hands Henson very much nudged ahead.

Hence BOD was nominated THREE times IRB World Player in ten years, shoe-in centre for the Lions 2001, 2005, 2009, and very well could be 2013.......... Henson well during that time........... ahem married Church and went into reality TV

This is silly now

It is getting silly, your even moving the goalposts for a third time

We can agree to disagree mainly because I'm bored of this, but BOD was never rounded player, he was a great 13, had the attack game ball in hand and could cover his 12 and wing in defence, never had the type of game to interchange positions, was never rounded enough to cover both centre positions, 10 and FB before he was 24. BOD was the BETTER player, he acheived more, and he would be my pick over Henson, but naturally talented and rounded he wasn't.

I'm out now, because youve stopped listening to reason.

What are you talking about I have moved the goal posts for a third time??????............. that doesn't even make sense grrrrrrr

Are you really saying on this forum that Henson (having been forced from 10 to 15 to 12 because there were better players in each position than him) is more naturally talented than O'Driscoll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK I am now giving up this.............. I bow to your superior logic and Henson is a much more talented and overall a better back

thebluesmancometh wrote: BOD was an excellent 13 but was not as rounded as Henson by a long shot.

BOD did the extra rounded bit called history...Henson didn't. As in BOD, with his record as a Centre, did what it says on the tin, as it were.

Henson? - Well, I've already said he is/was a very good player. I won't fault his abilities but to suggest he had the skills that would have placed him higher than BOD is very creative thinking considering he had the skills you say he had and didn't go higher.

O'Driscoll achieved because he has an extra ingredient that you need to be a Great - he was and is a constant warrior - heart and soul in the game, virtually always. His desire was to do all his talking on the field and backed it up mostly. Henson had talent, felt he had talent, and was in and out of games mentally, and in and out of games physically, and out of rugby frequently. And none of that had anything to do with a string of bad luck. That was the difference, or one of them, between O'Driscoll and Henson.

To paraphrase Senator Lloyd Bentsen: "Bluesman, I knew BOD... Bluesman, Henson is no BOD"

What's happened since I've been away!

Your WUM became a discussion. Happens.

Don't want to weight in too much in this discussion but personally I believe he's somebody with insane amounts of talent.

Like many with his playing style and temperament he blew hot and cold but his sparks of skill were outstanding.

I still can't believe this pass was humanly possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4qRqaZLjPU

also this pop pass is divine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh3bvS4nysM

Plenty of talent no doubt - but both of those passes we see every week from a variety of players - look at the first link I put up of BOD for something really special :-)

So yes - Henson had plenty of talent but nothing a that is not replicated in a number of players and in no way the most naturally talented as claimed

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Your WUM became a discussion. Happens.

WUM because you didn't agree with it? Hypocrite. Everything you say is anti welsh you are the HERSH reincarnation.

The term "Talent" is an unquantifiable measure in rugby.... when a player is described as talented then its always spoken about those who have yet to prove themselves in test rugby.
People see them in training, club rugby etc and acknowledge how talented they are... how they can pass, kick, tackle etc.

No one described BOD as talented anymore and haven't done so for 10 years... because from the offset he proved himself on the pitch to be a world class performer.

Henson never made that transfer, he got close in 05 but couldn't back up his form in the AIs in 04 and the 6N 05 and he drifted away.

Just because Henson could kick and distribute better then BOD it doesn't mean he was more talented.... they play different positions. Henson never had the pace or guile of BOD, never had an eye for the gap, the break etc.... BOD made things happen and often dragged his team by his own across the line.

Its like comparing Carl Hayman to Gavin Henson. Hayman has proved to be one of the best tightheads of the pro era.... and very talented in his own right but just because he can't kick better then Gavin it doesn't mean he was a lesser player.

In terms of being a game changer all on their own.... guys like Jonny Wilkinson, Brian O'Driscoll were game changers at the highest level... thats what true world class is. Henson never did that, had the potential... but then again so had Charlie Hodgson. He was a very talented player in his own right... I remember when he ran the show in 04 vs. the boks and made them look a sorry bunch (who had then just won the 3N title and after all his battles, Schalk Burger still recalls that match as his toughest ever game from a interview he did for the RWC11. I never saw Henson dominate a quality team like Hodgson did vs. the boks in 04.

People describe Henson as talented because in test rugby you could probably count the number of top class performances in test rugby on one hand..... you'd need an awful lot of hands to count BOD's notable performances.

Henson better and more talented that Carter

I have heard it all now

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Your WUM became a discussion. Happens.

WUM because you didn't agree with it? Hypocrite. Everything you say is anti welsh you are the HERSH reincarnation.

I'm not anti-Welsh, it's just a number of Welsh posters that post drivel on here. Maybe they're not Welsh and are just trying to give Welsh fans a bad name. Happens.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Scarpia wrote:All I can say is that I saw him play his first game for Swansea RFC and followed him till he left The Ospreys. He had a wonderful talent. Anyone who says differently either saw him play only occasionally or is Wumming, or, because they don't like him, refuse to acknowledge the obvious truth of the matter. Through a combination of bad luck (injuries, a preposterously long ban, exaggerated press reports about his behaviour and, some would say, Woodward's treatment of him with the Lions) bad advice (the book) bad judgement (letting his marriage lead to a "celebrity" lifestyle) his starting to believe the media hype he never reached the heights he should have reached. He has to take a lot of the blame for not being able to see what was happening and taking the correct course of action but there were many other people who could have helped him but did not. I will always be glad that I saw him at his best. I will always be sorry that it all went wrong.

There were more accurate kickers, more destructive tacklers, better defensive and offensive players, faster and quicker 10/12s..........

But Henson did ALL those things extremely well. Take just one of those skills and yes, you may be able to find a player who was better. But you won't find a player who did them ALL better. And regarding his "losing" his No10 shirt to Hook - we all know, although you will deny it - that this was at the behest of Mike Ruddock who saw the potential for Henson as a 12. He played fullback for the Ospreys when required by circumstances because, contrary to popular belief, he was a good clubman - and again because he had such a remarkable array of skills that he could play play anywhere from 10 to 15.