Aviva DOR shortlist announced

This years Director of Rugby shortlist has been announced. They are;

- Richard Cockerill: Leicester Tigers
- Lyn Jones: London Welsh
- Mark McCall: Saracens
- Dai Young: London Wasps

Who do you think will win it?

Mark McCall for me, with Lyn Jones runner up.

i'm still not sure on who to vote for, it's strange when the season hasn't finished.

Well, they like to have all this stuff sorted before the end of the season so they can get more publicity.

Ask Cockers andf McCall if they want to win this or the AP title and we all know what they would say. Jones woul drather not be nominated if LW had stayed up instead.

Is there a gong for Most Creative Financial Director?

How has Lyn Jones been nominated? Even if they hadn't been fined five points, Oxford Welsh would still be battling relegation.

My initial reaction was Mccall, but with the finances and squad available you would expect nothing less, and in fact Sarries have probably under acheived massively in recent seasons...

Young started awkwardly, but as he was allowed to sign he has signed quality and Wasps are proving a tough team to beat / outscore!

Lyn JOnes has done an excellent job with a very average squad, well at least first half of the season, the points really took the wind out of Welsh's sails!

Cockeril has been, well, himself, typical Leicester, nothing different, always there or there abouts.

My pick would probably go for Lyn Jones, purely because his has been the toughest task by far, of which was made tougher, and he was kicked in the crotch for doing such a good job!!!

The guys who are honoured would be best those who carefully manage their squads in order to minimise the number of IW callouts. Overtly signing overseas players is cheating a bit so that's Gold out.

And the winner is:







































Well it's im innit. That Exeter bloke. You know thingy - 'im - errr

[prompt] Rob Baxter

Yeah that's the one!

thebluesmancometh wrote:My initial reaction was Mccall, but with the finances and squad available you would expect nothing less, and in fact Sarries have probably under acheived massively in recent seasons...

But the award is not about 'recent seasons', it's about this one. If Sarries win either the AP or HC it will be McCall, and desrvedly so.

Why is Lyn Jones on the list? It can only be a sympathy nomination. Losing 10 or 11 games on the bounce, and being in charge of the relagated club, is not a reason to be nominated, despite a competitive start to the season.

Ditto Dai Young. While we like Dai a lot at Wasps, our recent run should be enough to rule him out.

It's between Cockers and McCall for me; both of whom have kept their teams in the top four despite a lot of England (and other international) call ups.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:My initial reaction was Mccall, but with the finances and squad available you would expect nothing less, and in fact Sarries have probably under acheived massively in recent seasons...

But the award is not about 'recent seasons', it's about this one. If Sarries win either the AP or HC it will be McCall, and desrvedly so.

Why is Lyn Jones on the list? It can only be a sympathy nomination. Losing 10 or 11 games on the bounce, and being in charge of the relagated club, is not a reason to be nominated, despite a competitive start to the season.
Ditto Dai Young. While we like Dai a lot at Wasps, our recent run should be enough to rule him out.

It's between Cockers and McCall for me; both of whom have kept their teams in the top four despite a lot of England (and other international) call ups.

Ditto, the nomination of Jones is a joke.

Surely it should just be Cockers, McCall and O'Shea. They all got their teams out of the pool stages of Europe, all are in the top four and all have been form setters across the season. Yes Quins have recently been poor but we were top of the league for a long period, have scored bucketloads and are still going well.

I'd still vote Mccall though.

McCall has got his team into the HEC and AP semis so far. Technically (and not wanting to start GT et al on a Cap abuse rant) this is done on the same budget as many other teams. With players in demand for England it is a struggle to see how he could have done any better.

Dai Young and Lyn Jones are being rewarded for in the perception of the shortlisting panel - overacheiving. Everyone expected LW to get regularly tanked. They had far and away the lowest budget, Jones had little time to pull a team together, yet they have constantly punched above their weight. LW have been better than the sum of their parts - what more can a DoR do? Anyone can do a Bernard Laporte and pull together a team of mega-stars, it takes real ability to take a bunch of nobodies and actually make them competetive.

Dai Young took on a team that but for Sam Vesty's celebration would have been relegated last season. He took a once great team that was in freefall and has turned them around. The brand of rugby they have played whilst threatening to make the Top 6 for a lot o fthe season has been thrilling. that they have since collapsed is why he should not win however.


this award is not a "oooh look who is in charge of the best team award" but rather who has improved their team.

Sarries are a clear improvement on last year
Tigers slight improvement (got out of their HEC group - a tough one)
Quins after a good HEC run have fallen away compared to last season (but could still retain the title)
Saints have made no progress
Nigel Davies has had a decent start to life at glaws.
rob Baxter continues to work miracles at Sandy Park - but Exeter have not threatened the Top 4 this season which they did last year.
Gary Gold - jury is out.
Dai Young improvement to the team, more needed.
Richard Hill - sacked
steve diamond - nuff said
Brian Smith - LI have struggled

Nice analysis LondonTiger.

I would put Nigel Davies in there instead of Lyn Jones for nomination personally. As harsh as it is Lyn Jones failed.

Davies has taken Gloucester from 9th last season to 5th (so far) this season.

If the award was based on the first half of the season Jones would probably be there but in the 2nd half LW have gone into freefall.


Interestingly if we just took the first half of the season O Shea,Young, Lyn Jones and Davies would be the nominations in my opinion.

2nd half of the season would probably be McCall,Cockerill,Baxter and Diamond in my opinion.

My problem with Mccall is that although this season is going well, it was always going to eventually given the squad, budget and extra budget that noone else gets

Seriously though, Sarries have the best squad and most money in general, and should be up there with the best in England and europe, when I look at DOR I always ask myself if others could do the same in that guys position!

Could Mccall have turned around Wasps fortunes?

Could Mccal have done any better at Welsh?

Would Mccal be where Sarries are with Leicesters squad?

My answer would be who knows, but IMHO probably not in 2 of the 3 cases above.

Lyn JOnes has done a spectaular job turning a nothing squad, run on a string budget and turned them into a competitive team in the prem, hands up those of you who said that with Welsh wouldn't win a single game, go on be honest there were tons of you!!!

Young has done ok, but mostly through signings, Lyn Jones didn't have that option.

And Cockerill does what he does, I like him, but he is Leicester through and through, his passion makes up for his weaknesses.

thebluesmancometh it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

Part of being a good DOR is building a good squad and recruiting the right players. You have to have players who suit your style. Filling in the holes.

Saracens have made very canny signings like Brits,Joubert,Burger,Wyles etc.

Their signings have actually worked. Vunipola signed as an England U20s player is now a full blooded England player.

You have academy players like Fraser,Kruis,Farrell and Goode who have come on leaps and bounds.

Compare in example to Bath. Their signing of Donald has been a complete fiasco.

Just compare Saracens' way to the Toulon way as well.

We don't know what McCall would have done with other squads. He has won a Celtic league with Ulster though.

In terms of gameplan I don't think Wasps would suit McCall at all. Wasps are very reliant on their wingers - they like to go wide.

London Welsh... I think maybe he could do something there.


Leicester also make smart signings too - e.g. Mullipola and the Tait gamble is now starting to pay off. Thompstone and Morris as well are doing a job there.

LondonTiger wrote:McCall has got his team into the HEC and AP semis so far. Technically (and not wanting to start GT et al on a Cap abuse rant) this is done on the same budget as many other teams. With players in demand for England it is a struggle to see how he could have done any better.

Dai Young and Lyn Jones are being rewarded for in the perception of the shortlisting panel - overacheiving. Everyone expected LW to get regularly tanked. They had far and away the lowest budget, Jones had little time to pull a team together, yet they have constantly punched above their weight. LW have been better than the sum of their parts - what more can a DoR do? Anyone can do a Bernard Laporte and pull together a team of mega-stars, it takes real ability to take a bunch of nobodies and actually make them competetive.

Dai Young took on a team that but for Sam Vesty's celebration would have been relegated last season. He took a once great team that was in freefall and has turned them around. The brand of rugby they have played whilst threatening to make the Top 6 for a lot o fthe season has been thrilling. that they have since collapsed is why he should not win however.


this award is not a "oooh look who is in charge of the best team award" but rather who has improved their team.

Sarries are a clear improvement on last year
Tigers slight improvement (got out of their HEC group - a tough one)
Quins after a good HEC run have fallen away compared to last season (but could still retain the title)
Saints have made no progress
Nigel Davies has had a decent start to life at glaws.
rob Baxter continues to work miracles at Sandy Park - but Exeter have not threatened the Top 4 this season which they did last year.
Gary Gold - jury is out.
Dai Young improvement to the team, more needed.
Richard Hill - sacked
steve diamond - nuff said
Brian Smith - LI have struggled

I think this is very harsh.

Diamond should be on the short list and going by your criteria could well be in with a shout of winning the award. Sale were a side in free fall at the start of the season, they were clueless and were by far and away the worst team in the league. But once Diamond got back in the driving seat they have turned around and become far more competitive, they've jumped up above LI in the league (and Welsh but that's a bit of a moot point) and are playing the rugby that we saw and enjoyed last season.

Yes Diamond is probably a slime bag of a human being, but as a DoR and coach he's shown that he's quality and has shown far more pronounced results in a shorter space of time under more pressure then any other coach on that list.

thebluesmancometh wrote:My problem with Mccall is that although this season is going well, it was always going to eventually given the squad, budget and extra budget that noone else gets

Seriously though, Sarries have the best squad and most money in general, and should be up there with the best in England and europe, when I look at DOR I always ask myself if others could do the same in that guys position!

Could Mccall have turned around Wasps fortunes?

Could Mccal have done any better at Welsh?

Would Mccal be where Sarries are with Leicesters squad?

My answer would be who knows, but IMHO probably not in 2 of the 3 cases above.

Lyn JOnes has done a spectaular job turning a nothing squad, run on a string budget and turned them into a competitive team in the prem, hands up those of you who said that with Welsh wouldn't win a single game, go on be honest there were tons of you!!!

Young has done ok, but mostly through signings, Lyn Jones didn't have that option.

And Cockerill does what he does, I like him, but he is Leicester through and through, his passion makes up for his weaknesses.

Exactly. It's a moot point and a useless argument to try to make. Each DoR works with the tools available and McCall has fashioned his into a team that can beat almost any one in Europe (we'll find out more on that this weekend). Lyn Jones managed to beat a few teams through being under the radar, once teams noticed them they've never looked close to winning a game.

Yappy - diamond was (despite the title) the DoR for the whole season. He had a variety of head Coaches but he waas th eman in charge and should be held directly responsible for the mess that Sale found themselves in.

He is a good forwards ~coach but as the ultimate boss he has been interesting.

Ah fair enough, he still though has to be applauded for pulling them out of the brown stuff (even if he may be responsible for getting them in it).

He has had a very big effect on Sale since Christmas.

He sorted them out last season post Mike Brewer and turned them round this season. I actually have a lot of time for him - but plaudits must be limited when the hole he dug them out of was one he dug in the first place.

In terms of master DOR you'd have to give Baxter a great number of plaudits. In terms of flying under the radar, he's been a bit of a genius.

And not by hoovering up spare overseas talent either.

Mind you he has a very well-organised administration behind him (as opposed to Lyn Jones).

However a significant loss of key players during IWs would test his mettle although a promising and maturing academy at hand will be very useful.

But I'd hand him the prize this time around.

6th to 11th is very impressive for Sale Sharks. Give Steve Diamond the DOR award for that!

Looking at each side compared to last season so far

Quins have gone from 1st to 3rd.

Leicester have stayed 2nd.

Sarries - 3rd to 1st

Saints have stayed 4th

Gloucester have gone from 9th to 5th.

Exeter have gone from 5th to 6th.

Bath have gone from 8th to 7th

Wasps from 11th to 8th

London Irish - 7th to 9th

Worcester Warriors - have stayed 10th

Sale Sharks from 6th to 11th

London Welsh - championship winners to relegation.

thebluesmancometh wrote:My problem with Mccall is that although this season is going well, it was always going to eventually given the squad, budget and extra budget that noone else gets

Seriously though, Sarries have the best squad and most money in general, and should be up there with the best in England and europe, when I look at DOR I always ask myself if others could do the same in that guys position!

Could Mccall have turned around Wasps fortunes?

Could Mccal have done any better at Welsh?

Would Mccal be where Sarries are with Leicesters squad?

My answer would be who knows, but IMHO probably not in 2 of the 3 cases above.

Lyn JOnes has done a spectaular job turning a nothing squad, run on a string budget and turned them into a competitive team in the prem, hands up those of you who said that with Welsh wouldn't win a single game, go on be honest there were tons of you!!!

Young has done ok, but mostly through signings, Lyn Jones didn't have that option.

And Cockerill does what he does, I like him, but he is Leicester through and through, his passion makes up for his weaknesses.

You could also argue that having the resources Sarries have puts an even greater pressure to deliver on the DOR. Could Lyn Jones have dealt with that pressure and still deliver the results? Who knows?

There are pro's and con's for a DOR's job regardless of which end of the table you are.