Warburton

What will he bring to the Lions during the Test series?

Not a WUM, just genuinely have not seen much of him for Cardiff Blues as most games aren't televised, and wasn't very impressed with him in the 6 Nations. Thought his Man of the Match against Scotland was sort of by default because he didn't play badly after a bad run of form, and he won a couple of turnovers in that game.

I know his history from u20 captain, struggling to break through, being hampered by injuries and the presence of Martyn Williams. Then was made captain out of left field and enjoyed a good run of form, having a good game in a world cup warm up vs England making some good cover tackles and a couple of turnovers.

To me at the 2011 World Cup,the star was the unit of the back row for Wales. With Lydiate Warbs and Faletau at 6,7,8 performing all the traditional roles perfectly. Lydiates chopping tackles allowed Warburton to get over the ball, and Faletaus carrying kept Warburton on the front foot when hitting rucks.

To get to the point,is Gatland hoping that the unit can rediscover that form and be as effective during the test series in Australia? Seems like a good plan A as the back row is all about balance and trust,with those players having faith in each other. But Justin Tipuric has INDIVIDUALLY been a more effective player than Sam Warburton for a long time now, as has Sean O'Brien, both players are capable of taking a game by the scruff on their own. What happens if those two guys are consistently the best players in Australia? Does Sam get pushed to 6 again? That wouldn't have the same balance as having Lydiate there, or does Tipuric(or O'Brien) bench and come on for the Captain?

This is not to mention Tom Croft, who has his detractors, but if he hits form could be key to taking out the Aussie line out, either going head to head with Dave Dennis if he plays or taking advantage of the fact that Australia are going to play two shivered open sides on the flanks in Hopper/Gill/Smith.

So many questions,apologies for the long winded way of getting there. But I suppose what I'm asking is it that Warburton is an integral part of plan A and if that doseant work does he have to be dropped along with the unit?or is he good enough individually and will be able to take the game by the scruff of the neck and win it for the lions?

Just noticed a typo - Shivered open sides should be 'Smaller' open sides!!!! Predictive text!

I have already commented on how strong the squad is and my optimism for a winning series. A few players missed out in some close calls and a few might consider themselves fortunate but overall this is a squad capable of wining.

I have always doubted the wisdom of Gatland picking Warburton as captain and I still think it's poor decision. I don't believe Sam is the best 6 or 7 in Wales. He now needs to compete with Croft and O'Brien too. I have always believed that the captain has to be first on the team sheet on merit and when he isn't, or there are doubts, it makes being the captain difficult.

Gatland has made his task in Australia more difficult than had he picked BOD or POC - both more likely first choices imo.

Agree 100% offload. Always becomes very awkward when people are walking on eggshells around the captain because he's giving all the speeches but not leading by example on the pitch! I'm sure we've all experienced it in school or underage rugby!! Let's hope Sam hits the form of his life, cause he'll need to.

Don't be ridiculous. It's a Welsh dominated side and a no brainer for a Welsh skipper to work hand in hand with Gats. BOD doesn't even captain Ireland and I want him free and creative on his game skills. I defo don't want him building up a head of frustration and getting carded. Think we can all hide behind POC? Think the Aussies will swallow that one and bow down in awe at the BMOC ? Don't think so. POC is one good game back from a long injury. Aren't you a little premature in wishing the Captaincy on him. I hope BOD and POC have storming tours and they use all their nous to back Warbs and bring the series home.

Who's being ridiculous?the question is can Warburton grab the game by the scruff of his neck on his own if the unit of him Lydiate and Faletau isn't firing or is broken up through injury. O'Connell and O'Driscoll are players who have stood out even when their teams are going backwards,and dont need to operate in a unit. Hopefully Warburton is too!

The first thing I'll say is that Gatland knows Sam Warburton better than any of us, knows what he offers and how good a leader he is within the Welsh setup.

With that out of the way, my view has always been that a confusion arose around Wales's peformance at the World Cup (which was, ultimately, disappointing). Wales played well and did better than anyone expected - and Warburton was captain. For me, the fact that Warburton was captain was coincidental. Matthew Rees would have been captain had he not got injured in the warm-up matches. But some thought that Wales played well because Warburton was captain. I've never bought that. Warburton was also captain when we lost the series against Australia 3-0.

Gatland knows and has worked with all the contenders for the Lions captaincy: O'Driscoll, O'Connell and Warburton. If he thinks that Warburton is the best candidate of the three, I'll bow to his superior knowledge.

Very true Luckless, just hope Gatlands masterplam works and,like all fans, I wish I knew it!!!

Good point on how things could have been very different had Rees not got injured. Wonder if Sam would've got so much media about the tackle on Clerc if he wasn't captain?

Also I really wonder what would've been different had England won in Cardiff, or even if they lost a narrow thriller playing just as well as Wales played and hence still won the 6 nations!! Would Robshaw and Wood be on the plane with Tipuric and Faletau,not Warburton?

From what Gatland has said about it, it was the intensity of that match that gave it its importance in terms of selection. It really was a physical game from start to finish. I'm not sure he ruled out players on the basis of it - Farrell missed kicks, Tuilagi went missing, Tom Youngs and Dan Cole were pinged off the park (but let's not get into that!), and yet they all made the cut.

Geoff Parling really stood out for me in that game - he was a leading light for England. I'm glad he's been selected for the tour.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Geoff Parling really stood out for me in that game - he was a leading light for England. I'm glad he's been selected for the tour.

Agree with that - I thought he was the best England forward through the whole 6N's.

Parking did make some good hits in that game. Always so hard to do when the opposition are coming onto the ball hard and with huge confidence. He could be a player who comes back from the Lions tour with his reputation enhanced, I like the contrast in the second row choices with Gray Evans O'Connell Jones and Parling all bringing something different to the table.

He carried well too, Ulster12. He's unassuming but he gets through a lot of work.

Ulster12 wrote:Who's being ridiculous?the question is can Warburton grab the game by the scruff of his neck on his own if the unit of him Lydiate and Faletau isn't firing or is broken up through injury. O'Connell and O'Driscoll are players who have stood out even when their teams are going backwards,and dont need to operate in a unit. Hopefully Warburton is too!

If you had watched the last two games for Wales in the Six Nations you would have seen exactly why Warburton is worthy of his place, he lead by example in blisteringly good form.

Complimented Tipuric well too as Wales blew the English backrow out the breakdown.

maestegmafia wrote:

Ulster12 wrote:Who's being ridiculous?the question is can Warburton grab the game by the scruff of his neck on his own if the unit of him Lydiate and Faletau isn't firing or is broken up through injury. O'Connell and O'Driscoll are players who have stood out even when their teams are going backwards,and dont need to operate in a unit. Hopefully Warburton is too!

If you had watched the last two games for Wales in the Six Nations you would have seen exactly why Warburton is worthy of his place, he lead by example in blisteringly good form.

Complimented Tipuric well too as Wales blew the English backrow out the breakdown.

Maesteg - I agree that Warburton is worthy of his place. In the context of the Lions however, I would not have made him captain.

If you're going to mention the last two games, Maesteg, he was anonymous in the Scotland game until Ryan Jones went off and Tipuric came on.

For me both Warburton and Tuperic are the most athletic flankers in the six nations, they are as fast as any backs and can get to the breakdown in a blink of an eye, I think we will see a combination of Warbs at 6 and Tips at 7 like they were against England and they were both everywhere, for me this could be the deciding factor as the Aussies will have to compete with two players who are very quick and very intelegent when it comes to the breakdown, also when scrummaging they are not standing up like mearkats they are always compact and giving their full support to the scrum, because they know they are quick enough off the mark without having to have a headstart. Without their starting star flanker will the Aussies be able to match these two, I would not bet on Australia.

Maesteg I did watch the last two games of the six nations and I agree he made a couple of turnovers vs Scotland and made a break around the side of a ruck a prop was defending against Wales. That's all I saw him do during the tournament. If he 'lead by example in blistering form' how exactly did he do that?in actions not words?

Warbs is an oddity, he was restricted through game time by Williams at club level then BANG, was elevated from club to int honours, he had a great first 2 seasons including a world cup where he captained...

Then was very good in the slam, but got injured and was rushed back from injury for a summer tour, AI's, and then this 6N he has been hit and miss.

The question remains is Warbs the world class player he promised in his first season, or was that just an electric intro to int rugby ala Ashton etc...?

I think most coaches and fans believe he is world class struggling with form and injuries for a season, but for me it's simple, Tipuric has been the form 7 for 12 months and shouldve started in both the summer tours to Oz and AI's, not to mention the first few 6N games!!

I'd even go as far to say that Warbs has offered so little to the Blues I was campaigning for Navidi (Blues 7) to make the Welsh squad ahead of him, it was clear Warbs hasn't been fit for nearly a year, why we insisted on playing him throughout I don't know, same could be said for Jenkins and RP!!

Warbs is the wrong choice for captain IMHO, but definately deserves to tour on his last 2 6N performances alone.

It is strange that a man under pressure for his place at club and international level, and who no one can actually mention specifically exactly what he brings to the team is our only guaranteed test starter!

All I can think of is Gatland must really rate him highly

In the old Beeb army comedy "It Ain't 'arf 'ot Mum" the Welsh Sarn't Major had a secret but proud belief that Private (wot's is name ?) was in fact his very own son. A running gag amongst the squad was how the Sgt M always seemed to admire / favour this unknowing and unlikely lad.

I don't think Sam was the right choice for many of the reasons already covered, however it does make sense to have your captain in the 7 shirt. Refs will be subconsciously reluctant to penalise and or yellow card the captain of the touring side, so you get an advantage at the breakdown. I know he was sent off in the WC but that was a little more serious and dangerous than repeatedly slowing the ball down.

NZ have been exploiting this for years with McCaw, so there may be method in Gatlands madness

U could be on to something gregortree!

Ulster12 wrote:U could be on to something gregortree!

Mr Ulster
and in this case a Kiwi Sgt M.

LordDowlais wrote:For me both Warburton and Tuperic are the most athletic flankers in the six nations, they are as fast as any backs and can get to the breakdown in a blink of an eye,

If we're talking pure athleticism, Croft is faster than either of them. Apparently he was the fastest player in the Leicester squad a couple of years ago. Doesn't hit rucks in attack or defence like either of them of course. All the back row players in the squad offer a very skill set, so I'd imagine the test selection will be tactical.

Why don't people stop writing and go and have a look at Warburton v England in his last international a few weeks ago. If you still have your doubts after that then nothing will convince you so it remains a moot point.

gregortree wrote:In the old Beeb army comedy "It Ain't 'arf 'ot Mum" the Welsh Sarn't Major had a secret but proud belief that Private (wot's is name ?) was in fact his very own son. A running gag amongst the squad was how the Sgt M always seemed to admire / favour this unknowing and unlikely lad.

One might conclude that given the "other" selection surprises that Mr Gatland had rather an active youth !

Oh no, surely not young Matt born in South Africa ?
Maybe Tips too.
Mind you I guess Gats did some touring, and Rowntree.

Well either that or the fact that Warburton has been intergral to Wales becoming the top international side in the Northern Hemisphere over the past 2 years

RubyGuby wrote:Well either that or the fact that Warburton has been intergral to Wales becoming the top international side in the Northern Hemisphere over the past 2 years

Just to play 's advocate for a moment, Ruby, has he then also been integral to Wales having the worst NH record against SH sides over the past 2 years?

Dress it up as much as you want, you remind me of the anglo fans just before the last game in the 6 Nations with your admirable quotes - Just being the devils advocate of course

Not sure I understand what you mean?

he was announced as TOUR captain....not just CAPTAIN which may be semantics but may also be significant later on

RubyGuby wrote: Dress it up as much as you want, you remind me of the anglo fans just before the last game in the 6 Nations with your admirable quotes - Just being the devils advocate of course

we get no credit for spoling their party, just the usual bitterness....now happy to foment divide in the Lions as long as it undermines Wales.

100%beefy wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Dress it up as much as you want, you remind me of the anglo fans just before the last game in the 6 Nations with your admirable quotes - Just being the devils advocate of course

we get no credit for spoling their party, just the usual bitterness....now happy to foment divide in the Lions as long as it undermines Wales.

Still none the wiser, but thanks for the attempt to help, beefy

thomh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:For me both Warburton and Tuperic are the most athletic flankers in the six nations, they are as fast as any backs and can get to the breakdown in a blink of an eye,

If we're talking pure athleticism, Croft is faster than either of them. Apparently he was the fastest player in the Leicester squad a couple of years ago. Doesn't hit rucks in attack or defence like either of them of course. All the back row players in the squad offer a very skill set, so I'd imagine the test selection will be tactical.

And that is just it, they are extremely quick and they have the nous to know when things are on and when they are not, trust me, I honestly do not think that the Aussies without Pocock will be able to live with us if we start with these pair at six and seven.

Yaaar! Shiver me opensides!

I think the problem this time round is none of the names touted as captain are head and shoulders above the rest in their position - I'd have made BOD my captain, but I see a lot of people on here don't have him starting. Which players would we consider, if fit, certainties to start? Adam Jones, Sexton and North?

The Bachelor wrote:Yaaar! Shiver me opensides!

I think the problem this time round is none of the names touted as captain are head and shoulders above the rest in their position - I'd have made BOD my captain, but I see a lot of people on here don't have him starting. Which players would we consider, if fit, certainties to start? Adam Jones, Sexton and North?

Sexton and Hibbard are my only starters right now, they are the only 2 players if injured I'd wince at their replacements!!!!

The only starters for me are Adam Jones, Jonny Sexton and Faletau for me and if we are picking a captain out of certain starters then it would be Adam Jones but I think the coaching team have done the right thing by going for warburton just shows we don't have to rely on POC and BOD plus shows gatland has the balls to make the big calls

100%beefy wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Dress it up as much as you want, you remind me of the anglo fans just before the last game in the 6 Nations with your admirable quotes - Just being the devils advocate of course

we get no credit for spoling their party, just the usual bitterness....now happy to foment divide in the Lions as long as it undermines Wales.

Honest to God.... Why is when Ppl post vaild questions,a viewpoint or seeking answers, its viewed as a personal attack on Welsh players selected for the tour? Everyone has had a say on the WHOLE squad. Get over yourselves and learn some humilty..

welshboii15 wrote:The only starters for me are Adam Jones, Jonny Sexton and Faletau for me and if we are picking a captain out of certain starters then it would be Adam Jones but I think the coaching team have done the right thing by going for warburton just shows we don't have to rely on POC and BOD plus shows gatland has the balls to make the big calls

Boil, not sure that Faletau will start - for reasons of balance (including a real line out option at the tail, and roving on oppo throws), I think we'll see Lydiate-Warburton-Heaslip with SOB as cover, and Croft-Tipuric-Faletau as the second grouping, again with SOB as cover

There has to be a solid ball carrier and if faletau don't start then SOB has to because there has to be a ball carrier In the side abd no offence to Heaslip but hes not the Heaslip of past lions

welshboii15 wrote:There has to be a solid ball carrier and if faletau don't start then SOB has to because there has to be a ball carrier In the side abd no offence to Heaslip but hes not the Heaslip of past lions

Which could work well with Tips at 7 as he's as quick a ball carrier there is in the pos.

Im not doubting tiprics/warburton or crofts carrying but they wont carry half as good as SOB or Faletau best ball carryonh forwards we have taken

welshboii15 wrote:There has to be a solid ball carrier and if faletau don't start then SOB has to because there has to be a ball carrier In the side abd no offence to Heaslip but hes not the Heaslip of past lions

I know what you're saying, and that's true when Heaslip plays with SOB, but not when he doesn't (watch the Amlin semi vs Biarritz to see the difference), so I think Heaslip will do the carrying and lineouts (SOB doesn't really do lineouts), Lydiate will do chopping and rucking, and Warburton will do fetching and linking (primary focuses rather than absolute duties btw)

Heaslip can carry just fine, and he is decent in the lineout, it has to be Tips at 7 and Warbs at six, those two will be at the breakdown before the the breakdown.

LD, would it not be difficult for Gatland to play two specialist 7s when he explicitly stated backrow picks had to be specialists, esp when he has Lydiate available to him and we know how much he admires Lydiate's play, particularly with captain Sam at 7?

Thats a fair point I guess im used to seeimg SOB and Heaslip and with SOB being the main carrier it takes the spot light off Heaslip so with there beimg a back row of warbs lydiate and Heaslip them to will do the donkey work which I hope brings back heaslips carrying skills

welshboii15 wrote:Thats a fair point I guess im used to seeimg SOB and Heaslip and with SOB being the main carrier it takes the spot light off Heaslip so with there beimg a back row of warbs lydiate and Heaslip them to will do the donkey work which I hope brings back heaslips carrying skills

Exackery

Be good to have him back to his best of 2009 and hopefully if lydiate plays then it will bring warbs back to his best