England v Barbarians, 26 May

First topic message reminder :

England v Barbarians
26 May 2013
Kick off: 13:00 local
Twickenham Stadium

Match officials to be announced.

Might get a thread started about this now that the full Ba-bas squad has been announced.

1. Teams:
Barbarians:
Elliot Daly
Takudzwa Ngwenya
Casey Laulala
Mike Tindall (captain)
Timoci Nagusa
James Hook
Dwayne Peel
Andrea Lo Cicero
Matthew Rees
James Johnston
Jim Hamilton
Marco Wentzel
Alessandro Zanni
Jonathan Poff
Imanol Harinordoquy

Replacements:
Schalk Brits
Duncan Jones
Paul James
Dean Mumm
Sam Jones
Dimitri Yachvili
Nick Evans
Rowan Varty

England
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)
14. Christian Wade (Wasps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
11. Marland Yarde (London Irish)
10. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
9. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, captain)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins)
18. Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
19. Kearnan Myall (Unattached)
20. Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
21. Haydn Thomas (Exeter Chiefs)
22. Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
23. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

2. England squad

Forwards

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Kearnan Myall (Sale Sharks), David Paice (London Irish), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), David Wilson (Bath Rugby).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens), Haydn Thomas (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (London Irish).

3. Barbarians squad

Backs

Jared Payne (Ulster), Rowan Varty (DeA Tigers & Hong Kong), Takudzwa Ngwenya (Biarritz Olympique & USA), Timoci Nagusa (Montpellier & Fiji), Joe Rokocoko (Bayonne & New Zealand), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), James Hook (Perpignan & Wales), Nick Evans (Harlequins & New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali'i (Ospreys & Samoa), Dwayne Peel (Sale Sharks & Wales), Dimitri Yachvili (Biarritz Olympique & France).

Forwards

Duncan Jones (Ospreys & Wales), BJ Botha (Munster & South Africa), Paul James (Bath Rugby & Wales), Martin Castrogiovanni (Leicester & Italy), Andrea Lo Cicero (Racing Metro 92 & Italy), Matthew Rees (Scarlets & Wales), Leonardo Ghiraldini (Benetton Treviso & Italy), Schalk Brits (Saracens & South Africa), Marco Wentzel (London Wasps & South Africa), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby & Scotland), Dean Mumm (Exeter Chiefs & Australia), Samu Manoa (Northampton & USA), Francois Louw (Bath Rugby & South Africa), Sam Jones (London Wasps), Alessandro Zanni (Benetton Treviso & Italy), Sergio Parisse (Stade Francais & Italy), Imanol Harinordoquy (Biarritz Olympique & France).

I'm not sure what Goode brings to England. He's not a strike runner, and I want a 15 who can frighten the opposition when he gets the ball.

Agree, his reputation was largely built on a couple of assists against Fiji and it took people an inexplicable length of time to notice that he's not a threat with the ball in hand. The amount that Wales were happy to kick to him was indicative. Think his stats for that game read something like counter attacks - 15, defenders beaten - 1.

My understanding was the thinking behind him being good for England was that he was a second playmaker in the backline to make up for the perceived lack of creativity in the centres. For me that's nonsense, and even more so if we end up with Burns and Twelvetrees at 10/12. Brown or Foden should be 15 for England for the time being, although if you want to go all out attack 15. May 14. Wade 11. Yarde is one hell of a back 3.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm not sure what Goode brings to England. He's not a strike runner, and I want a 15 who can frighten the opposition when he gets the ball.

Agreed. I never really understood the plaudits he got during the Six Nations. There's more to a full back's game than fielding the high ball, no matter how good you are at getting into the right position to take it.

Given the number of genuine attacking options we seem to have at fifteen, here's hoping we use one of them.

I wouldn't rule out lancaster giving eastmond a shot at the 15 shirt,it's not where I would play him but I'm not the coach

It was good match fairly one sided but good fun to watch from the stands although you know it's one sided when the Mexican Wave and streaker were the highlight

Ozzy3213 wrote:My understanding was the thinking behind him being good for England was that he was a second playmaker in the backline to make up for the perceived lack of creativity in the centres. For me that's nonsense, and even more so if we end up with Burns and Twelvetrees at 10/12. Brown or Foden should be 15 for England for the time being, although if you want to go all out attack 15. May 14. Wade 11. Yarde is one hell of a back 3.

It made a bit of sense while Farrell and Barritt were nailed on, and Foden was injured. Goode is a much more natural distributor than Brown, so if they were desperate to have someone at 15 who could do that then his selection was at least logical. Now that Foden (a former scrum half) is back in form and Twelvetrees looks to be tearing it up at 12, the fact that Goode can pass a bit better than Brown doesn't seem as relevant.

Class is permanent form is temporary. If Foden was welsh he would never have been dropped IMO. Goode is a solid FB and at the moment that is not what England need with their stodgy midfield. Brown and Foden would be great foils interchanging between wing and FB; both competent under the high ball and both capable of returning it with pace.

RubyGuby wrote:Class is permanent form is temporary. If Foden was welsh he would never have been dropped IMO. Goode is a solid FB and at the moment that is not what England need with their stodgy midfield. Brown and Foden would be great foils interchanging between wing and FB; both competent under the high ball and both capable of returning it with pace.

Come and be England backs coach!!

yappysnap wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Class is permanent form is temporary. If Foden was welsh he would never have been dropped IMO. Goode is a solid FB and at the moment that is not what England need with their stodgy midfield. Brown and Foden would be great foils interchanging between wing and FB; both competent under the high ball and both capable of returning it with pace.

Come and be England backs coach!!

The Ospreys would never release me from my contract

Foden is back to his best. Ben Youngs has a tendency to faff around at rucks, mauls and scrums. Care is by far the better 9 atm.

I understand Barritt for his defensive attributes, but a huge reason why England struggled for tries after Scotland in the 6N was the battering ram midfield and not having in form wingers (one of which isn't a winger - Brown).

So, Care - Burns - May - 36 - Tuilagi - May - Foden would be my backs going forward.

Corbs, Webber, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, Croft, Kvesic and Morgan in the pack.

Parling to captain that lot.

Sorry about Robshaw, but we were well beaten by Wales with a lopsided back row.

Actually, if he was fit, I would have Will Fraser ahead of Kvesic.

Hound - you cloning May now?

May day May day !!!

lostinwales - possible, though more likely is:

1/ HoH thinks May is so fast and good he could cover both wings at once; or
2/ it was a typo and he meant to put Yarde on the other wing.

PS: M Tait is the forgotten man in this new look free running England back line. Looks to be back to his best, and that's very good indeed.

After the way Wade and Yarde performed on Sunday I would find it tough to drop either for May for the first game on the tour. Really like May though, so want him to get a go sometime soon!

Ozzy3213 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Agreed on that stuff robbo - I know I'm jumping ahead of myself given this thread is about the Barbarians game but I'd love to see an EPS such as the one below for the AI's.

Prop - Corbs, Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson
Hooker - Youngs, Webber
Second row - Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Slater
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Kvesic, Haskell
Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum half - Youngs, Care, AN Other - let the others separate themselves this summer
Fly half - Burns, Farrell, Flood
Centre - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Barritt, Lowe - though Eastmond or Tomkins seem more likely currently
Wing - Wade, Yarde, May
Full back - Brown, Foden, Goode

All things considered that looks a balanced and very promising squad to my eyes. I'd also love to see Tait and Allen get another look in but at who's expense could be a difficult question! That's a slightly larger squad than the EPS usually is, but the squad inevitably seems to grow with injury replacements hanging around once the players they replaced are fit again and such things.

I would have Dylan Hartley, Joe Simpson, Kyle Eastmond and Chris Aston in, and Toby Flood, George Lowe and Alex Goode out from your squad. Notwithstanding form over the summer/injuries etc, my side for the first AI would be

15. Brown
14. May
13. Tuilagi
12. Twelvetrees
11. Yarde
10. Burns
9. Youngs

1. Corbisiero
2. Webber
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

16. Youngs 17. Marler 18. Wilson 19. Attwood 20. Haskell 21. Care 22. Farrell 23. Wade

Ozzy - Hartley was already falling behind Webber in my pecking order prior to Saturday if I'm honest and with how highly I rate Youngs as first choice I'm afraid he misses out on the two hooker spots in the squad. Ashton similarly has fallen behind Wade, Yarde and May in my estimates - I'd even consider using Foden on the wing prior to Ashton currently and even then he's in a big bracket of guys playing to a similar standard such as Varndell, Sharples, Strettle and Monye.

Eastmond and Simpson both have promise but I'd give both time to keep developing, Simpson especially needs to improve his passing and kicking game no end before being considered an international SH. Eastmond is a really promising player and were I to add another back to that squad it probably would be him as a utility option. Goode I'd keep in just for now to see if Tait can keep his current form into next season but if he does do that Goode could find himself on the scrap heap very quickly it's fair to say! As for Flood I think we currently have 3 standout fly halfs who offer different options so I'd like to keep all three in the EPS for now we can see which fits the side best - I'm hoping Burns!

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Attwood/Slater 5.Parling 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown
16.Webber 17.Vunipola 18.Wilson 19.Launchberry 20.Wood 21.Care 22.Farrell 23.May/Foden

Above is what I'd like to see for the first AI at the moment. It pains me to put Launchberry on the bench but for the sake of balancing the pack I'd take that hit personally.

Ah, baws. I meant Wade at 11.

A pleasant evening with good friends and is my defence.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Ben Youngs has a tendency to faff around at rucks, mauls and scrums. Care is by far the better 9 atm.

I'm a Quins fan and disagree with this. Care is unbelievable for us at Quins but his box-kicking and distribution are not as good as Youngs', and his sniping round the fringes that is so effective for Quins doesn't really work against fitter and better organised defences at international level. I wouldn't trade them at club level, but Care has never really shone in internationals, whereas Youngs' England form over the last season has been excellent.

my 23 for the first AI would be as follows;

1- Corbs
2- Webber
3- Cole
4- Attwood
5- Parling
6- Wood
7- Kvesic
8- Morgan
9- Youngs
10- Burns
11- Yarde
12- Twelvetrees
13- Manu
14- Wade
15- Foden

16- Vunipola
17- Youngs
18- Wilson
19- Launchbury
20- Robshaw
21- Care
22- Farrell
23- May

I think everyone on the bench also has potential to challenge for a starting position.. Tough on Robshaw but I prfer a true 7 and Lauchberry but I think we need more grunt..
The front row of Cole/ Webber / Corbs would ensure that fiasco of Cardiff doesn't happen again..

king_carlos wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Agreed on that stuff robbo - I know I'm jumping ahead of myself given this thread is about the Barbarians game but I'd love to see an EPS such as the one below for the AI's.

Prop - Corbs, Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson
Hooker - Youngs, Webber
Second row - Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Slater
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Kvesic, Haskell
Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum half - Youngs, Care, AN Other - let the others separate themselves this summer
Fly half - Burns, Farrell, Flood
Centre - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Barritt, Lowe - though Eastmond or Tomkins seem more likely currently
Wing - Wade, Yarde, May
Full back - Brown, Foden, Goode

All things considered that looks a balanced and very promising squad to my eyes. I'd also love to see Tait and Allen get another look in but at who's expense could be a difficult question! That's a slightly larger squad than the EPS usually is, but the squad inevitably seems to grow with injury replacements hanging around once the players they replaced are fit again and such things.

I would have Dylan Hartley, Joe Simpson, Kyle Eastmond and Chris Aston in, and Toby Flood, George Lowe and Alex Goode out from your squad. Notwithstanding form over the summer/injuries etc, my side for the first AI would be

15. Brown
14. May
13. Tuilagi
12. Twelvetrees
11. Yarde
10. Burns
9. Youngs

1. Corbisiero
2. Webber
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

16. Youngs 17. Marler 18. Wilson 19. Attwood 20. Haskell 21. Care 22. Farrell 23. Wade

Ozzy - Hartley was already falling behind Webber in my pecking order prior to Saturday if I'm honest and with how highly I rate Youngs as first choice I'm afraid he misses out on the two hooker spots in the squad. Ashton similarly has fallen behind Wade, Yarde and May in my estimates - I'd even consider using Foden on the wing prior to Ashton currently and even then he's in a big bracket of guys playing to a similar standard such as Varndell, Sharples, Strettle and Monye.

Eastmond and Simpson both have promise but I'd give both time to keep developing, Simpson especially needs to improve his passing and kicking game no end before being considered an international SH. Eastmond is a really promising player and were I to add another back to that squad it probably would be him as a utility option. Goode I'd keep in just for now to see if Tait can keep his current form into next season but if he does do that Goode could find himself on the scrap heap very quickly it's fair to say! As for Flood I think we currently have 3 standout fly halfs who offer different options so I'd like to keep all three in the EPS for now we can see which fits the side best - I'm hoping Burns!

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Attwood/Slater 5.Parling 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown
16.Webber 17.Vunipola 18.Wilson 19.Launchberry 20.Wood 21.Care 22.Farrell 23.May/Foden

Above is what I'd like to see for the first AI at the moment. It pains me to put Launchberry on the bench but for the sake of balancing the pack I'd take that hit personally.

I suspect we'll see 3 hookers in the EPS, which is why I included Hartley. I think Webber has looked good and would have him starting. Youngs for me is an impact player, but not a test starter, his basics are still not good enough at that level. Also I don't see the point of 3 outside halves. We wll never win a world cup with Flood at 10, so I would concentrate on the other 2 now.

Maybe im the only one but i really didnt see much that i wanted to from Kvesic...and based on that performance, Robshaw is still the man in the 7 shirt...by quite a way.

Webber is good, but Youngs must have the hooker shirt...and Hartley needs to be dropped completely...no place for those football style antics in our great game.

If Burns continues to show this form in Argentina then he must become 1st choice as he has so much more than Farrell, and i also think Barritt must move aside now for Twelvetrees.

1st AI team...

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Attwood / Slater (dependant on form)
6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Last chance for Ashton, but with this lineup his lines of running should get a hatful...

Really don't want to see Tom Wood benched for Croft, hopefully Lancaster agrees with me! Croft is quality, but Wood still the better player for me

I too far prefer Tom Wood at 6...however you have to work on pack balance...and with a slightly heavier second row for the graft and physicality...we simply must have a world class lineout and Croft gives us that...besides (as a big critic in the past) some of his games in the latter part of the season have been simply top class.

It isn't about the first fifteen, it’s about the extended squad IMO. This is why I don’t get into debates like Wood vs Croft. They are both first choice blindsides with precedence given to who will complement the back-row best or who is fit/in better form. I mean to say, how many times do we actually get to see the team we would pick as our first choice? I would like to see us develop a team that is interchangeable between ‘first choice’ and ‘back up’. I think this already occurs in a few positions:

01. Alex Corbisiero or Joe Marler or Mako Vunipola
02.
03.
04.
05.
06. Tom Wood or Tom Croft
07.
08.

09. Ben Youngs or Danny Care
10.

11.
12.
13.
14.
15. Mike Brown or Ben Foden

There are probably a few more, but these are the ones that immediately spring to my mind. You could maybe add Dan Cole and Davey Wilson, but I still think Dan Cole is irreplaceable at the moment. I have a feeling that the same thing will develop between Ben Morgan and Billy Vunipola.

I agree to a degree Cumbrian..we need players that can simply slot in with no major changes in performance, thats essential, but i still think its important to know what your 1st choice or starting lineup is...

Now that may not necesarily be your strongest individual players...as i say i far prefer Tom Wood as a 6...but Croft may edge it for certain skills he brings, that compliment the rest of the pack.

Cumbrian

I think we're pretty close to that situation at 10 as well - can name any of Farrell, Flood and Burns to start and get at least a competent international quality performance.

Hooker - Youngs, Hartley and Webber are all good enough to start (even if DH is a complete muppet at times).

In both cases you're looking at alternatives with slightly different strengths (and weaknesses) to their games, so there is a need to balance the side overall to compensate.

I agree that its about developing a squad that can deal with injurys and still perform at the top level.
strength in depth is just as important in international as it is in club. We are getting there - 2or3 best players in each position BOLD highlights not quite there yet but could be
1. Corbis, Vaunipola, Marler
2. Youngs, Webber
3, Cole, Wilson
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Parling, Lawes
6.Wood, Croft
7.Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser
8.Morgan, Vaunipola
9. Youngs, Care
10. Farrell, Flood, Burns
11.Ashton, Wade
12.Barritt, Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi, Joseph
14.May, Yarde, Sharples
15. Brown, Foden

There are plenty of other options in there, but we are finally seeing real competition in a lot of places - wing berth is truly up for grabs for a lot of potentials. I truly believe that we should just pick whichever winger is in form at the time of selection - its one of the few positions where players could slot in with little notice.

Insert guys like Eastmod, Attwood, that would also be pushing for those back up spots.
Strettle, Haskell ect all poshing for further inclusion in the EPS.
And Hartley has a lot to proove.

I'd have Burns above Flood and Farrell...for me he's the one that can get us where we want to go.

Agree that he could be - but he's still got to be prooven.

He's not yet thats correct, but for me he's the one with the most potential.

thomh wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Ben Youngs has a tendency to faff around at rucks, mauls and scrums. Care is by far the better 9 atm.

I'm a Quins fan and disagree with this. Care is unbelievable for us at Quins but his box-kicking and distribution are not as good as Youngs', and his sniping round the fringes that is so effective for Quins doesn't really work against fitter and better organised defences at international level. I wouldn't trade them at club level, but Care has never really shone in internationals, whereas Youngs' England form over the last season has been excellent.

I think Danny really struggles to adapt to a style of gameplay that isn't Quins, but I am really hoping that we can get the best out of him at England next season. At Club level his kicking and distribution are excellent, just as good as Youngs, and to be fair he didn't really get a fair run out last season for England. If your pack get nudged (like Italy and Australia games saw happen to us) then your SH can't really shine and their cons are more likely to show up than any pros. When he was coming off the bench for England, he looked the real deal

Hound of Harrow wrote:Foden is back to his best. Ben Youngs has a tendency to faff around at rucks, mauls and scrums. Care is by far the better 9 atm.

I understand Barritt for his defensive attributes, but a huge reason why England struggled for tries after Scotland in the 6N was the battering ram midfield and not having in form wingers (one of which isn't a winger - Brown).

So, Care - Burns - May - 36 - Tuilagi - May - Foden would be my backs going forward.

Corbs, Webber, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, Croft, Kvesic and Morgan in the pack.

Parling to captain that lot.

Sorry about Robshaw, but we were well beaten by Wales with a lopsided back row.

To be fair the lopsidedness of the backrow was partially because they picked 2 7s and we didn't try and counter it and also because we played a 6/6.5 in ALL 3 backrow positions, and there was no bulk emphasised by one of the players being Croft. I'm not sure that Kvesic is a true 7 either (he's played more 8 than 7) and think that the most important backrow change is actually playing a specialist 8. I also think horses for courses is vital- we should have a solid 15 set up but with ability to swap in/out 1 or two players depending on the opponents, stadium and conditions. Surely that's one of the major points of an EPS, that the players are used to each to the degree we can deviate from using the same first 15 all the time when sometimes a different player would obviously improve the team for a certain situation?

Agree with all that whole heartedly chequered! In some positions players very much can be picked depending on the opponents and what we need at that time. As you say in several positions I think we are developing this now though.

1.Corbs, Vunipola and Marler
2.Youngs and Webber
3.Cole and Wilson
4.Attwood and Slater
5.Parling and Launchberry
6.Croft and Wood
7.Robshaw - Still well ahead IMO but I do rate Kvesic
8.Morgan and Vunipola

9.Youngs and Care
10.Burns and Farrell - Flood also a very good option

11.Yarde and May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt and Allen - A big part of me actually feels Allen could be a better second option currently
13.Tuilagi
14.Wade - May or Foden covering here
15.Brown, Foden, Goode - With Tait also coming back this is one our most interesting positions now!

When covering for Tuilagi at 13 I'd almost be inclined to move Barritt across to OC to partner Twelvetrees, until one of Tomkins, Joseph, Lowe, Daly, Trinder etc really throw their hand up at club level.

I am ashamed to say I had never even heard of Yarde before the BABAS game. He looks pretty tasty very strong and quick. England have some good backs its a good job Lancaster never picks them.

Long live Stuart king of the plodders

King carlos,

Do you not think Ashton will be in the mix. He's off form and totally lacking in an England shirt at the moment...but get Burns in there, with players like Attwood, Morgan and Vunipola crashing through ...and i believe you'll see what Ashton can do. Hes not a creator, he thrives off reading the game and being on the shoulders of players, running great lines...and the current set up is quite appalling at this.
He is approaching his last chance though....as you rightly say we have some great options coming through.

GF

Agree that Ashton is far from done at this level - just needs to be playing alongside a more creative backline than we had in the 6Ns. Yes there are other options, but how many of them would have shone in a back division including Barritt, Mike Brown on the wing and Alex Goode at full back (I'm less worried about Farrell at 10 and Manu at 13 provided you have a ball-playing 12).

Get either Brown or Foden to full back, Wade on the opposite wing and 36 at 12, plus Morgan at 8 and you have a far more dynamic team that more than offsets Farrell's lack of ball carrying threat (his passing is pretty good and his short kicking game could become excellent).

GeordieFalcon wrote:King carlos,

Do you not think Ashton will be in the mix. He's off form and totally lacking in an England shirt at the moment...but get Burns in there, with players like Attwood, Morgan and Vunipola crashing through ...and i believe you'll see what Ashton can do. Hes not a creator, he thrives off reading the game and being on the shoulders of players, running great lines...and the current set up is quite appalling at this.
He is approaching his last chance though....as you rightly say we have some great options coming through.

Ashton I'd currently consider in a pack of chasers such as Sharples, Strettle, Varndell, Monye, etc behind May, Wade, Yarde and Foden.

The main reason I've left him out though is because I feel the simplest way for the backline to pose a threat is to have as many players as possible who offer the ability to make a break themselves and make one for someone else. That is where Ashton falls down compared to Wade, Yarde, May and Foden IMO because he doesn't have the passing game to create a chance for anyone else. If put in space he takes chances very well and is strong in contact but if he doesn't have people doing that for him he's innocuous.

He has a high work rate and goes looking for the ball but I often feel that he doesn't have the game awareness to make that the weapon it should be unless the game breaks open. Against a set defense he will often run the same line repeatedly (inside ball of Flood/Farrell usually) and ends up in heavy traffic more often than not. Then we have his tackling to talk about!

In short I think some of the other options have much better core skills which allow them to pose more of a threat.

I understand what your saying, but if you have gamebreakers like Wade, Brown or Foden at FB, Youngs or Care at SH, Burns and Twelvetrees...would it not be a useful weapon to have something a bit different such as Ashton to feed off their creativity. Give you different options...

You could still have May or Yarde on the bench...

Nice to see so many Glaws players - on both sides !

I think Ashton was brilliant when he came into the England team, but right now I think we wont be missing him at all

I wouldn't give up on Ashton just yet,he is the only proven try scorer at the moment.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet.
Lets see how we go in the u upcoming tests before jettisoning anyone.

Slater and Clark have been ruled out, with Myall called in as cover.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I understand what your saying, but if you have gamebreakers like Wade, Brown or Foden at FB, Youngs or Care at SH, Burns and Twelvetrees...would it not be a useful weapon to have something a bit different such as Ashton to feed off their creativity. Give you different options...

You could still have May or Yarde on the bench...

I'd agree that in a backline offering as little as ours did in the 6N some of the criticism of Ashton was unwarranted but some of the comments being made about his defence and passing for instance had been a while coming!

With 6 places on offer for back 3 players in the EPS and how strong our FB options are I think the best balance is 3 FB (with Foden covering wing) and 3 wingers. Of the wingers I'd say Wade has to be in as he's electric and after him Yarde and May currently offer better all round skill sets to Ashton IMO, as such I'd struggle to get him in the EPS. Of the next choices such as Varndell, Ashton, Strettle, Sharples, etc I'd say they're all pretty close with flaws to their game but Ashton or Varndell would be next in-line for me.

thomh wrote:Slater and Clark have been ruled out, with Myall called in as cover.

At least Burns is now guaranteed a start as Clark was probably picked as a fly half this time around....

king_carlos

Who would your third full back be (assuming Foden and Brown are two of them)? Tait or Goode?

The back three is always interesting because it seems to be one of the areas of the squad where people can progress to international recognition really quickly.

Be honest here (this probably doesn't apply to LIrish fans), 6 months ago if somebody told you that had people would consider Chris Ashton's place under threat from Marland Yarde would you have believed them? I reckon there are a fair few who wouldn't have even known who he was.

There is a lot more competition to come too. I think we'll be talking about Jack Nowell in the same way for next May's match against the Barbarians. Although, I reckon it will be Strettle's position rather than Ashton's that is up for grabs.