England v Barbarians, 26 May

First topic message reminder :

England v Barbarians
26 May 2013
Kick off: 13:00 local
Twickenham Stadium

Match officials to be announced.

Might get a thread started about this now that the full Ba-bas squad has been announced.

1. Teams:
Barbarians:
Elliot Daly
Takudzwa Ngwenya
Casey Laulala
Mike Tindall (captain)
Timoci Nagusa
James Hook
Dwayne Peel
Andrea Lo Cicero
Matthew Rees
James Johnston
Jim Hamilton
Marco Wentzel
Alessandro Zanni
Jonathan Poff
Imanol Harinordoquy

Replacements:
Schalk Brits
Duncan Jones
Paul James
Dean Mumm
Sam Jones
Dimitri Yachvili
Nick Evans
Rowan Varty

England
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)
14. Christian Wade (Wasps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
11. Marland Yarde (London Irish)
10. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
9. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, captain)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins)
18. Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
19. Kearnan Myall (Unattached)
20. Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
21. Haydn Thomas (Exeter Chiefs)
22. Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
23. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

2. England squad

Forwards

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Kearnan Myall (Sale Sharks), David Paice (London Irish), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), David Wilson (Bath Rugby).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens), Haydn Thomas (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (London Irish).

3. Barbarians squad

Backs

Jared Payne (Ulster), Rowan Varty (DeA Tigers & Hong Kong), Takudzwa Ngwenya (Biarritz Olympique & USA), Timoci Nagusa (Montpellier & Fiji), Joe Rokocoko (Bayonne & New Zealand), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), James Hook (Perpignan & Wales), Nick Evans (Harlequins & New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali'i (Ospreys & Samoa), Dwayne Peel (Sale Sharks & Wales), Dimitri Yachvili (Biarritz Olympique & France).

Forwards

Duncan Jones (Ospreys & Wales), BJ Botha (Munster & South Africa), Paul James (Bath Rugby & Wales), Martin Castrogiovanni (Leicester & Italy), Andrea Lo Cicero (Racing Metro 92 & Italy), Matthew Rees (Scarlets & Wales), Leonardo Ghiraldini (Benetton Treviso & Italy), Schalk Brits (Saracens & South Africa), Marco Wentzel (London Wasps & South Africa), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby & Scotland), Dean Mumm (Exeter Chiefs & Australia), Samu Manoa (Northampton & USA), Francois Louw (Bath Rugby & South Africa), Sam Jones (London Wasps), Alessandro Zanni (Benetton Treviso & Italy), Sergio Parisse (Stade Francais & Italy), Imanol Harinordoquy (Biarritz Olympique & France).

thomh wrote:king_carlos

Who would your third full back be (assuming Foden and Brown are two of them)? Tait or Goode?

Yep those two are first choice. For this tour I'd have stuck with Goode as I feel one of the things that has helped Tait find top form is the way Tigers have managed his work load so I'd say give him a full preseason under that management (and Geordan's FB tuition!) to ensure that he starts next season raring to go and hopefully hitting the form of recent weeks.

If his form from this season carries into next I'd say that very soon he could displace Goode though. Goode is a good tactician and kicker but lacks pace and physicality IMO. One of the things we lacked most in the last year has been pace in the backline.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Brown 12.Barritt 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Goode - that has an almost comical lack of pace in it overall and as such isn't too surprising that we lacked an attacking threat. Tait or Foden could remedy this very quickly as both have raw pace to burn and are great at finding a break and hitting the line/supporting other players in attack.

Brown as a third option would complement them very well as he's brilliant under the high ball, has a huge left boot and is very strong in contact and nearly always beats the first defender.

Glad to see all you guys catching up with your selections.....piano shifters, piano players.....what were the lessons from last summer? We need a monster pack with a really 7 plus Wood as captain (no place for Mr nice guy Robshaw). Obviously the lessons weren't learnt and we lost in cardiff. Players who are not of true international ability have to be discarded....Facts guys facts with lancaster as head honcho England will not win a world cup....those the facts.

kingelderfield wrote:Glad to see all you guys catching up with your selections.....piano shifters, piano players.....what were the lessons from last summer? We need a monster pack with a really 7 plus Wood as captain (no place for Mr nice guy Robshaw). Obviously the lessons weren't learnt and we lost in cardiff.

I'm not sure those were the lessons of last summer. Wood hadn't played any rugby for 6 months and Robshaw had a fantastic couple of games, winning loads of turnovers and penalties for holding on. He also was one of our best players in Cardiff. There's absolutely no way that picking a more traditional "fetcher" seven would have done anything to stop us getting creamed in that game.

I'd agree that the first choice pack currently lacks a bit of bulk, and if Attwood can successfully run a lineout in Argentina then it would be a big boost in those terms, but I don't see the point you're making about not learning the lessons of last summer.

Marler is not an international prop.
Youngs size is a real issue, yes his dynamism offers a counterpoint and though the new scrum laws may benefit him, fact is top table world class hookers are usually bigger.
Second row is a real problem. Parling is reaching towards the required level but where is the big nasty to hold his hand, neither Attwood or Laws have achieved potential and launchbury flatters - he's not big enough or nasty enough, get over it.
7 is a joke
6 offers options though world class, ok Croft gives you that but without a 7 theres no one on the floor = must get a 7
Thankfully it looks like we have 2 real 8's
The lesson is South Africa 2012 = we can never be out fought in the forwards because without the ball you cannot win.
Ultimately it starts with available talent and the ability to select and that is the problem with Lacaster, he's a crap selector.

kingelderfield wrote:Marler is not an international prop.
Youngs size is a real issue, yes his dynamism offers a counterpoint and though the new scrum laws may benefit him, fact is top table world class hookers are usually bigger.

Absolutely agree with these two points. I am really hoping that Webber can kick on, as a front row of Corbisiero, Webber and Cole is not going to get beaten up in the scrum often, and offers benefits in other areas as well.

One of the challenges Lancaster will face is how willing he is to drop players who have done a job for him to date.

His faith in players like Barritt, Farrell, Tom Youngs, Robshaw, Haskell and Goode has largely been repaid but it's possible that some, or all, of them will offer less than others over the next two years.

Loyalty has been a big part of his set-up, so it will be interesting to see how he goes about making changes. Up to now, Lancaster has actually gone the other way, attempting to include people by playing them out of position.

I think(hope) lancaster has learned that y our 15 best players do not always make the best team.
If the team goes well this summer he will have some tough decisions to make.
The next EPS will probably be the most important of the 4 year cycle,it's time to have an identity and unleash it on the world.I believe all the tools are there if lancaster is bold enough.

Sorry guy's Lancaster is not the man and hopefully he will step aside asap

Funny thing is I can see Lancaster doing pretty much the same thing as Johnson did and get slated for. The only other thing was discipline at the World Cup (and I'm pretty sure Andrew put a special discipline manager in charge of that aspect).

Who would you like him replaced by?

thomh wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Glad to see all you guys catching up with your selections.....piano shifters, piano players.....what were the lessons from last summer? We need a monster pack with a really 7 plus Wood as captain (no place for Mr nice guy Robshaw). Obviously the lessons weren't learnt and we lost in cardiff.

I'm not sure those were the lessons of last summer. Wood hadn't played any rugby for 6 months and Robshaw had a fantastic couple of games, winning loads of turnovers and penalties for holding on. He also was one of our best players in Cardiff. There's absolutely no way that picking a more traditional "fetcher" seven would have done anything to stop us getting creamed in that game.

I'd agree that the first choice pack currently lacks a bit of bulk, and if Attwood can successfully run a lineout in Argentina then it would be a big boost in those terms, but I don't see the point you're making about not learning the lessons of last summer.

+1

Not sure kingelderfield watched the SA Tour or the Wales game? I am still unconvinced that a "real 7" is a real thing and even less convinced that Robshaw doesn't fulfil the criteria to be one, if it is a) a thing and b) a necessity

I watched them both thanks. Lancaster's light weight selections did for us on both occasions.

If your unsure what a real 7 is, I suggest you refer back to Back, nasty little buggar and world class with it.

I feel for Robshaw, he's been Lancaster's Borthwick and needs to go away and fight for the 6 shirt with Wood, Croft et al.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thomh wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Glad to see all you guys catching up with your selections.....piano shifters, piano players.....what were the lessons from last summer? We need a monster pack with a really 7 plus Wood as captain (no place for Mr nice guy Robshaw). Obviously the lessons weren't learnt and we lost in cardiff.

I'm not sure those were the lessons of last summer. Wood hadn't played any rugby for 6 months and Robshaw had a fantastic couple of games, winning loads of turnovers and penalties for holding on. He also was one of our best players in Cardiff. There's absolutely no way that picking a more traditional "fetcher" seven would have done anything to stop us getting creamed in that game.

I'd agree that the first choice pack currently lacks a bit of bulk, and if Attwood can successfully run a lineout in Argentina then it would be a big boost in those terms, but I don't see the point you're making about not learning the lessons of last summer.

+1

Not sure kingelderfield watched the SA Tour or the Wales game? I am still unconvinced that a "real 7" is a real thing and even less convinced that Robshaw doesn't fulfil the criteria to be one, if it is a) a thing and b) a necessity

After watching the BaBas game again, I think Attwood is really starting to reach the heights of the potential that he showed during his early days. I thought his carrying in the tight was excellent, and he really made metres off the back of rucks and mauls, dragging tacklers with him. It's the sort of penetration in the the tight that England really missed in their recent games. He was also calling the lineout which went very well. Attwood and Launchury in the boiler room for me this tour, with Lawes on the bench.

I disagree about Youngs too. He might not have the height, but he certainly punches above his weight in terms of physicality, and his rucking is very good. Scrummaging is primarily about technique, and not all the best scrummagers are the heaviest. Dan Cole is actually a lighter international tighthead, but copes just fine.

kingelderfield wrote:I watched them both thanks. Lancaster's light weight selections did for us on both occasions.

If your unsure what a real 7 is, I suggest you refer back to Back, nasty little buggar and world class with it.

I feel for Robshaw, he's been Lancaster's Borthwick and needs to go away and fight for the 6 shirt with Wood, Croft et al.

Agree with that statement completely. Although England were beaten well and truly all over the park that game, our lightweight pack didn't help the scoreline. I maintain that Croft and Wood can never play in the same backrow together, and I had been saying it for ageeeeeeeeees before that game!! My heart sunk when I saw the selection.

The curiosity in complaining about England's lightweight back row is that they were heavier than their Wales counterparts. We lost because Tipuric and Warburton were getting there first, with only Robshaw (or Dan Cole) to beat much of the time.

There is an issue with playing Wood and Croft on the same team, not only because they are both specialist 6s (I want to see Wood in the 8 shirt for England again almost as little as I want to see Lawes starting at 6), but because they are quite similar in being rangy and athletic more than powerful in the SOB / Ferris mode. We needed the extra bulk and carrying power that Morgan offers

Well:

I think Lancaster is still learning aswell...he's had a plan...build a solid team thats difficult to play against - thats does the basics right. Solid fedence, good set piece, rucking etc. For the most part he's achieved that.

When he took over we had many young talented players with no experience even in prem but now as they gain experience he's evolving the team....for example Botha (a solid experienced dependable pro)was initally a first choice...this has now changed to Launchbury as he has proven himself in the prem...we had no standout creative 12's but barritt stood out for organisation, defence etc...but now that Tewlvetrees has started to shown his potential he will surely challenge for that 12 spot - this shows the improvement.

We can see from the summer tour selections that he is going to address the size issue...by selecting Attwood and Slater initially...and players like Webber and Buchanan..powerhouse hookers.

He's building depth...we are slowly building a squad of very young players who have a high number of caps. Farrell's had much criticism...myself included but he's only bloomin 20.

He's said all along its about 2015 and its about progressing to that, aswell as building continuation for 2019...something SCW failed to do.

As for Tom Youngs...i dont believe his size is an issue...i believe it was the power from the second rows and back rows that were lacking.

Chris Robshaw is one of the best 7's in the world...and i dont buy this rubbish that hes not. He has had more turnovers than most other 7's, tackles forever, runs forever, plays the link man and is totally consistent...what more do you want???

Lets not forget we only lost one game this 6n...to a rampaging Wales...that in truth on that form would have beaten any side in the world just about. And didnt have big Morgan or Vunipola etc to take some ball to Wales.

The only issues has been Mike brown on the wing, and again i believe it was an experiement that Lancs himself will say didnt work...unlike playing Foden on the wing.

I am positive that we will move on and be a challenger come 2015...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well:

I think Lancaster is still learning aswell...he's had a plan...build a solid team thats difficult to play against - thats does the basics right. Solid fedence, good set piece, rucking etc. For the most part he's achieved that.

When he took over we had many young talented players with no experience even in prem but now as they gain experience he's evolving the team....for example Botha (a solid experienced dependable pro)was initally a first choice...this has now changed to Launchbury as he has proven himself in the prem...we had no standout creative 12's but barritt stood out for organisation, defence etc...but now that Tewlvetrees has started to shown his potential he will surely challenge for that 12 spot - this shows the improvement.

We can see from the summer tour selections that he is going to address the size issue...by selecting Attwood and Slater initially...and players like Webber and Buchanan..powerhouse hookers.

He's building depth...we are slowly building a squad of very young players who have a high number of caps. Farrell's had much criticism...myself included but he's only bloomin 20.

He's said all along its about 2015 and its about progressing to that, aswell as building continuation for 2019...something SCW failed to do.

As for Tom Youngs...i dont believe his size is an issue...i believe it was the power from the second rows and back rows that were lacking.

Chris Robshaw is one of the best 7's in the world...and i dont buy this rubbish that hes not. He has had more turnovers than most other 7's, tackles forever, runs forever, plays the link man and is totally consistent...what more do you want???

Lets not forget we only lost one game this 6n...to a rampaging Wales...that in truth on that form would have beaten any side in the world just about. And didnt have big Morgan or Vunipola etc to take some ball to Wales.

The only issues has been Mike brown on the wing, and again i believe it was an experiement that Lancs himself will say didnt work...unlike playing Foden on the wing.

I am positive that we will move on and be a challenger come 2015...

I agree! For what it's worth, I am also a big fan of SL. He seems to be capable of learning from his mistakes, as evident by his squad for Argentina. Lots of young, fresh talent. He must be kicking himself over Daly though. The lad can play rugby.

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well:

I think Lancaster is still learning aswell...he's had a plan...build a solid team thats difficult to play against - thats does the basics right. Solid fedence, good set piece, rucking etc. For the most part he's achieved that.

When he took over we had many young talented players with no experience even in prem but now as they gain experience he's evolving the team....for example Botha (a solid experienced dependable pro)was initally a first choice...this has now changed to Launchbury as he has proven himself in the prem...we had no standout creative 12's but barritt stood out for organisation, defence etc...but now that Tewlvetrees has started to shown his potential he will surely challenge for that 12 spot - this shows the improvement.

We can see from the summer tour selections that he is going to address the size issue...by selecting Attwood and Slater initially...and players like Webber and Buchanan..powerhouse hookers.

He's building depth...we are slowly building a squad of very young players who have a high number of caps. Farrell's had much criticism...myself included but he's only bloomin 20.

He's said all along its about 2015 and its about progressing to that, aswell as building continuation for 2019...something SCW failed to do.

As for Tom Youngs...i dont believe his size is an issue...i believe it was the power from the second rows and back rows that were lacking.

Chris Robshaw is one of the best 7's in the world...and i dont buy this rubbish that hes not. He has had more turnovers than most other 7's, tackles forever, runs forever, plays the link man and is totally consistent...what more do you want???

Lets not forget we only lost one game this 6n...to a rampaging Wales...that in truth on that form would have beaten any side in the world just about. And didnt have big Morgan or Vunipola etc to take some ball to Wales.

The only issues has been Mike brown on the wing, and again i believe it was an experiement that Lancs himself will say didnt work...unlike playing Foden on the wing.

I am positive that we will move on and be a challenger come 2015...

I agree! For what it's worth, I am also a big fan of SL. He seems to be capable of learning from his mistakes, as evident by his squad for Argentina. Lots of young, fresh talent. He must be kicking himself over Daly though. The lad can play rugby.

Hopefully he'll still be able to play rugby in Spring 2014. He's young and will get his chance!

Agree about Daly...but we must also be very careful of not picking too many players. We have a wide player pool and it has been mentioned before...we have TOO many choices which is an issue.

If we add Daly to the FB options...we have Foden, Brown, Goode and Daly...

Whilst Goode should be replaced in my opinion we still have two top class Fb's in Foden and Brown ahead of Daly...and also Daly will improve and get his own chances...

Let's see how he does at 13 against the Lions too

Yep, definitely. Interesting that he's lining up at 13 this weekend against the Lions. I'm hoping he settles in the centre over fullback, because England have already got serious competition at 15.

Sorry, we all posted at the same time about the same topic.

GF you're right about over-crowding the squad, and especially the 15 options.

I think it will become more of a problem...too many chocies...and we need to be strict, and only evolve and bring players through slowly that improve the team...

If you look at 13 now...we potentially have Lowe, Tomkins, Joseph (whos move to bath should regain his form) Trinder, Daly, possibly Eastmond to cover and even banahan's game has improved no end...and in reality i would be happy with any of them at 13 if they were in form...

Just been thinking about Biltong's comment earlier in the thread about whether we felt a game against a Premiership Barbarians side would be a better exercise at the end of the season than the Barbarians game and an interesting though came to mind about having an England 1st XV vs England 2nd XV game.

Put the match on a week after the Prem final to ensure availability of players, in non Lions years that is, and play the best two sides we can field against each other. It would sure as hell be a good way of getting a look at a lot of players at once.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

1.Vunipola 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Lawes 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Burns 11.May 12.Allen 13.Barritt 14.Foden 15.Tait

In the non Lions years where players would be fighting out places on a full summer tour wouldn't people love to see two sides such as those fighting it out against one another?

The benches could be made of of the likes of Hartley, Marler, Thomas, Kitchener, Slater, Haskell, Flood, Joseph, Goode, etc that just missed out on the XVs.

In the short term I can see the 23 shirt getting very crowded with May, Daly and Tait all being super subs able to cover wing,fb and centre to varying degrees. All three will make brilliant squad players and i'd love to see the sprint tests between those three!

In the longer term hopefully Daly will nail down 13 for Wasps and then he'll be competing with Tomkins and Joseph initially, with Lowe and Trinder on the periphery.

Exciting times to be an England fan! So many players full of potential coming through, just cast your mind back to the summer tours of 2010/11 or if you really want to weep 2007/8. What the frak was the whole English set up doing in those years?!

king_carlos wrote:Just been thinking about Biltong's comment earlier in the thread about whether we felt a game against a Premiership Barbarians side would be a better exercise at the end of the season than the Barbarians game and an interesting though came to mind about having an England 1st XV vs England 2nd XV game.

Put the match on a week after the Prem final to ensure availability of players, in non Lions years that is, and play the best two sides we can field against each other. It would sure as hell be a good way of getting a look at a lot of players at once.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

1.Vunipola 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Lawes 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Burns 11.May 12.Allen 13.Barritt 14.Foden 15.Tait

In the non Lions years where players would be fighting out places on a full summer tour wouldn't people love to see two sides such as those fighting it out against one another?

The benches could be made of of the likes of Hartley, Marler, Thomas, Kitchener, Slater, Haskell, Flood, Joseph, Goode, etc that just missed out on the XVs.

Do that, put a large percentage of the profits to charity (say Help for Heroes etc) and get the England B team to wear a one off commemorative shirt (with a collar!) and you are on to a bloody amazing idea there.

yappysnap wrote:In the short term I can see the 23 shirt getting very crowded with May, Daly and Tait all being super subs able to cover wing,fb and centre to varying degrees. All three will make brilliant squad players and i'd love to see the sprint tests between those three!

In the longer term hopefully Daly will nail down 13 for Wasps and then he'll be competing with Tomkins and Joseph initially, with Lowe and Trinder on the periphery.

Exciting times to be an England fan! So many players full of potential coming through, just cast your mind back to the summer tours of 2010/11 or if you really want to weep 2007/8. What the frak was the whole English set up doing in those years?!

2007... Gah! My eyes are burning!

Alex Brown
Peter Buxton
Darren Crompton
Andy Hazell
Nick Easter
Chris Jones
Magnus Lund
Dean Schofield
Andy Titterrell
Mark Regan
Stuart Turner
Matt Cairns
Pat Sanderson
Roy Winters
Nick Wood
Kevin Yates

Backs

Anthony Allen
Mike Brown
Andy Farrell
Toby Flood
Andy Gomarsall
Jamie Noon
Shaun Perry
Pete Richards
Jason Robinson (capt)
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mathew Tait
Jonny Wilkinson

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news%20articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

Cumbrian,

Thats a horror story!...from that team...Mike Brown, JSD and Nick Wood should have had more of an impact at International level for one reason or another...

It also shows the RFU incentives to use the academies and fill the teams with young local talent as opposed to filling them with foreign journey men is having the desired effect....

Cumbrian wrote:

yappysnap wrote:In the short term I can see the 23 shirt getting very crowded with May, Daly and Tait all being super subs able to cover wing,fb and centre to varying degrees. All three will make brilliant squad players and i'd love to see the sprint tests between those three!

In the longer term hopefully Daly will nail down 13 for Wasps and then he'll be competing with Tomkins and Joseph initially, with Lowe and Trinder on the periphery.

Exciting times to be an England fan! So many players full of potential coming through, just cast your mind back to the summer tours of 2010/11 or if you really want to weep 2007/8. What the frak was the whole English set up doing in those years?!

2007... Gah! My eyes are burning!

Alex Brown
Peter Buxton
Darren Crompton
Andy Hazell
Nick Easter
Chris Jones
Magnus Lund
Dean Schofield
Andy Titterrell
Mark Regan
Stuart Turner
Matt Cairns
Pat Sanderson
Roy Winters
Nick Wood
Kevin Yates

Backs

Anthony Allen
Mike Brown
Andy Farrell
Toby Flood
Andy Gomarsall
Jamie Noon
Shaun Perry
Pete Richards
Jason Robinson (capt)
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mathew Tait
Jonny Wilkinson

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news%20articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

STOP! For the love of God stop! It hurts too much.

Cumbrian wrote:

yappysnap wrote:
Exciting times to be an England fan! So many players full of potential coming through, just cast your mind back to the summer tours of 2010/11 or if you really want to weep 2007/8. What the frak was the whole English set up doing in those years?!

2007... Gah! My eyes are burning!

Alex Brown
Peter Buxton
Darren Crompton
Andy Hazell
Nick Easter
Chris Jones
Magnus Lund
Dean Schofield
Andy Titterrell
Mark Regan
Stuart Turner
Matt Cairns
Pat Sanderson
Roy Winters
Nick Wood
Kevin Yates

Backs

Anthony Allen
Mike Brown
Andy Farrell
Toby Flood
Andy Gomarsall
Jamie Noon
Shaun Perry
Pete Richards
Jason Robinson (capt)
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mathew Tait
Jonny Wilkinson

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news%20articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

Those forwards are painful reading!

Crompton, Buxton, Turner, Cairns, Winters, Yates were all good club players but not International quality IMO.

Regan was really in a strange sort of retirement purgatory by then whereby he was still playing seemingly by accident.

Sanderson and Hazell could've had strong International careers you could argue but at 30 were not in a position to restart them.

Schofield, Jones and Brown would all have been acceptable locks in the squad if one or two of them were there challenging the likes of Shaw or Kay but not challenging each other! Finally whether due to form, injury or selection Wood, Titterrell and Lund could've been good players but left us wondering what might have been.

Does this mean we all need to say thank you to Rob Andrew for changing the old set ups that existed and getting new agreements in place? The horror!

You could make a decent backline out of that in fairness.

...And whatever mistakes he made around RWC2011, most of the criticism of Rob Andrew has always been from people who didn't know what his job was.

"he's ruining everything and doing nothing"

Can you imagine going on a summer tour like that again? No players available from the top three clubs and a high number of sick notes from players wanting to be in good shape for the World Cup.

If I remember, the 2007 squad was also struck down with a stomach virus which was bad enough to end some players tours.

Ben skirving and Dan Scarborough were also capped on that tour in 2007,I think Scarborough scored a try against the boks.
Brian Ashton really took the p1ss that year,in fact his whole selection policy was a bit odd.

Come on he did give us Lesley "The Volcano" Vainakolo... oh yea I see your point

yappysnap wrote:Come on he did give us Lesley "The Volcano" Vainakolo... oh yea I see your point

...and he chose him instead of his Gloucester team mate James Simpson-Daniel.

To be fair, though, he had no choice on that 2007 tour.

I think he is a prop now in the French ligue 3 .
His performance against Italy was probably the worst I've seen from an 'English' wing.

Ashton actually publicly refused to consider JSD and Ian balshaw for the world cup that year.They were both fit but he was concerned that if he did select them they may get injured.

What an amazing attitude to have.

He also skipped over Haskell when he was in fine form for Wasps.

Rugby Fan wrote:Can you imagine going on a summer tour like that again? No players available from the top three clubs and a high number of sick notes from players wanting to be in good shape for the World Cup.

If I remember, the 2007 squad was also struck down with a stomach virus which was bad enough to end some players tours.

From memory the Tigers, Wasps and Bath players weren't available due to finals. And then there was the virus when out there. The whole tour was pointless.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Marler is not an international prop.
Youngs size is a real issue, yes his dynamism offers a counterpoint and though the new scrum laws may benefit him, fact is top table world class hookers are usually bigger.

Absolutely agree with these two points. I am really hoping that Webber can kick on, as a front row of Corbisiero, Webber and Cole is not going to get beaten up in the scrum often, and offers benefits in other areas as well.

Really are you serious?

Joe Marler is about as young as they get in propping terms. He was a sensation during the age-grades (an area a lot of people are looking to for 'World Class' talent) and demonstrated a keen ability for scrummaging and some excellent park work. He has around 10/12 caps? And is only 22. To say he is not international class is somewhat leaping to a conclusion, to put it mildly.

Tom Youngs has done in one season what no other international player has ever done in history. His progress in all areas of his game has been staggeringly good to the point at which Mr Gatland (someone obsessed with player size) has made him a Lion. His carrying work is some of the best of any hooker in the premiership. His throwing is generally very good and he has been part of a scrum which has wholly dominated all others in the AP. It is also a facet of his play that Graham Rowntree remarked was 'outstanding'.

Whilst I agree he is not the size of a Bismark Du Plessis (probably the best hooker in the world at present) that is no bar to him being England's top choice hooker for a number of years to come. There is nothing about his size which impedes his ability as a hooker. Something which has already been proved in the past a la Brian Moore.

kingelderfield wrote:Marler is not an international prop.
Youngs size is a real issue, yes his dynamism offers a counterpoint and though the new scrum laws may benefit him, fact is top table world class hookers are usually bigger.
Second row is a real problem. Parling is reaching towards the required level but where is the big nasty to hold his hand, neither Attwood or Laws have achieved potential and launchbury flatters - he's not big enough or nasty enough, get over it.
7 is a joke
6 offers options though world class, ok Croft gives you that but without a 7 theres no one on the floor = must get a 7
Thankfully it looks like we have 2 real 8's
The lesson is South Africa 2012 = we can never be out fought in the forwards because without the ball you cannot win.
Ultimately it starts with available talent and the ability to select and that is the problem with Lacaster, he's a crap selector.

The point you make about a top line no.4 is in my view correct, but one can't just be manufactured from nowhere. Your assessment of Launchbury is eye-wash. At 21 he is another player who will develop very nicely in this England team hopefully filling out to closer to the 19st 7lbs mark. He will make one of the world's best second rows and is a prodigious talent. Right now he's not a good pairing with Parling but would be great with Attwood/Slater.

The 7 point is the oldest debate in Christendom and there is no right answer in my view. It comes down to balance. These days some of the top turn-over winners are props, something unheard of ten years ago. It's important to see where the game is heading not just where it has been. I would also like Robshaw to concentrate on 6 and allow Luke Wallace to get some consistent time at 7 for Quins. I have never been a Robshaw fan but his work-rate for England has been eye-watering. My BR at present would be something like 6. T Wood 7. M Kvesic 8. B Morgan 20. T Croft. Having said that Kvesic did well without being spectacular against the Barbarians.

I don't agree that Lancs is a crap selector per se. He's got lost in some games I feel, Wales being a good example. Having said that he's picked the perfect team for the Barbarians and almost the perfect squad to tour bar one or two names. He, like the rest of the squad is learning and maturing.