Lions v Barbarians (Official Match Thread)

[mrzimmerman]

First topic message reminder :

The team has been named. What do you think? Predictions for the match?

British & Irish Lions:
S Hogg (Scotland); A Cuthbert (Wales), J Davies (Wales), J Roberts (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland); O Farrell (England), M Phillips (Wales); M Vunipola (England), R Hibbard (Wales), A Jones (Wales), R Gray (Scotland), P O’Connell (Ireland, capt), D Lydiate (Wales), J Tipuric (Wales), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: T Youngs (England), C Healy (Ireland), M Stevens (England), A W Jones (Wales), J Heaslip (Ireland), C Murray (Ireland), J Sexton (Ireland), G North (Wales).


Barbarians:
15 Jared Payne, 14 Joe Rokocoko, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Casey Laulala, 11 Taku Ngwenya, 10 Nick Evans, 9 Dimitri Yachvili, 8 Sergio Parisse,
7 Sam Jones, 6 Samu Manoa, 5 Dean Mumm, 4 Marco Wentzel, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Schalk Brits, 1 Paul James.

Replacements: 16 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17 Duncan Jones, 18 Jim Hamilton, 19 Imanol Harinordoquy, 20 Andrea Lo Cicero, 21 Kahn Fotuali'i, 22 James Hook, 23 Mike Tindall.

[Scrumdown]

Why all the optimism for Best's prospects? Hard to see him going from 4th choice to 1st just because he eventually got his plane ticket. Gats obviously doesn't rate him.

Probably because, Keith Wood the ex irish international and current rugby pundit is his number one supporter and therefore often gets selected in lions xvs.

In reality he is not as powerful as hibbard or as dynamic as tom young which is why Gatland did not originally pick him.

If Ken Owens was fit, then I am sure that he would have been called up instead if Best.

[Submachine]

Why all the optimism for Best's prospects? Hard to see him going from 4th choice to 1st just because he eventually got his plane ticket. Gats obviously doesn't rate him.

Probably because, Keith Wood the ex irish international and current rugby pundit is his number one supporter and therefore often gets selected in lions xvs.

In reality he is not as powerful as hibbard or as dynamic as tom young which is why Gatland did not originally pick him.

If Ken Owens was fit, then I am sure that he would have been called up instead if Best.

In reality I'd say the only thing that prevented him being first name on the teamsheet is a poor recent record at the lineout. Unfortunately for him, that's his primary role. He is at least as good a scrumager than Hibbard and a better loose player than both. Where he is far ahead of both is in defence and at the breakdown.

[munkian]

Best is Ireland's 'best' hooker and therefore world class and peerless

The 2nd best hooker in Ireland is...um...err...

[BlueNote]

"He is at least as good a scrumager than Hibbard and a better loose player than both. Where he is far ahead of both is in defence and at the breakdown"

Not as strong in the scrum as Hibbard (may not need to be against Aus). Both good carriers and tacklers. Best is better at the breakdown. I'd be happy with either.

[Totalflanker]

I can see Ian Evans emerging as the player of the tour

not so sure. POC starts first test, because he is POC, thereafter he needs to have a shocker to lose his place. That leaves one other lock spot. On form from 6 nation Evans plays too, but if all others regain their best, for me its a toss up for me between Gray and Gatland's preferred AWJ.

If form was the true arbiter then yes Evans has the potential for player of the tour, but Gatland has already proved with his squad selection that its 'form first, unless I have a preferred option already worked out'. Much as I don't agree, he will have to do a hell of a lot more than the other three to play the tests.......and that's not even mentioning Parling.

[flankertye]

Can see Richie Gray having an absolute stormer!
Think Croft will make the test team

[munkian]

Has anyone ever seen Gray have a stand out International match let alone sustained matches ?

I seriously do not get all the hype, he was massively lauded over when he got capped and hasn't really done anything since...

Hope he proves me wrong obviously

[Tramptastic]

Has anyone ever seen Gray have a stand out International match let alone sustained matches ?

I seriously do not get all the hype, he was massively lauded over when he got capped and hasn't really done anything since...

Hope he proves me wrong obviously

Scotland vs France two years ago? He'd played the previous year off the bench but that was his first six nations start and had a stormer! The french went mad for him in the papers

[Tramptastic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4BaJ0tC0XQ

[stevetynant]

Alternative strategy incoming, pick gray and Evans in the second row,croft, heaslip and Sam in the back row. Farrell at 10 and tom young kept no where near the pitch and just kick to touch all afternoon and just don't give the wallabies the ball to play with.

[maestegmafia]

"He is at least as good a scrumager than Hibbard and a better loose player than both. Where he is far ahead of both is in defence and at the breakdown"

Not as strong in the scrum as Hibbard (may not need to be against Aus). Both good carriers and tacklers. Best is better at the breakdown. I'd be happy with either.

He is fine player in the loose and he gets over the gain line very well, has pace and can pass. His throwing at line out only came into question during this years six nations, as all rugby fans know it takes a thrower and a catcher as well as a few helpers to make the set piece fluid. Best was hardly to blame for its faltering.

[munkian]

So a good debut, two years ago. Not exactly a string of good games. I guess that somes up Scotland though, flash in the pan peformances but no real consistency.

I'd go Evans and POC.

[Totalflanker]

Has anyone ever seen Gray have a stand out International match let alone sustained matches ?

I seriously do not get all the hype, he was massively lauded over when he got capped and hasn't really done anything since...

Hope he proves me wrong obviously

Scotland vs France two years ago? He'd played the previous year off the bench but that was his first six nations start and had a stormer! The french went mad for him in the papers

Also if you take 2012 six nations as a whole (2012 given injured for good chunk of 2013), stats suggest he wasn't bad

Tries: 1 (top 2nd row)
Passes: 18 (top 2nd row)
Carries: 40
Metres carried: 155 (top 2nd row)
Clean breaks: 3 (top 2nd row)
Offloads: 5 (joint 6th overall; top 2nd row)
Defenders beaten: 6 (joint 12th, top 2nd row)
Tackles: 43 (joint 10th overall)
Missed tackles: 0
Penalties conceded: 1
Turnovers conceded: 0
Lineouts won on own throw: 19 (2nd overall)
Lineout steals: 0

[ChequeredJersey]

43 tackles is joint 10th overall?!

[maestegmafia]

Pretty good stats. I guess some people don't notice his bright blond hair so easily???

[Totalflanker]

43 tackles is joint 10th overall?!

http://rugbyposts.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/six-nations-richie-gray-player-of-the-tournament/

.........agreed though, stats don't show the full picture

[ChequeredJersey]

I guess that is nearly 9 tackles average each match, just doesn't seem as big as it is

[maestegmafia]

I guess that is nearly 9 tackles average each match, just doesn't seem as big as it is

I wonder what the average tackle per player in international rugby. Lads like Brown, Faletau and Lydiate really boost the stats that players like Quade Cooper, Dan Parks and Chris Ashton famously dwindle.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

43 tackles is joint 10th overall?!

Joe Launchbury made 51 tackles - highest of any lock & as good as many flankers.


Top tacklers in 6 Nations

Tom Wood (Eng) 70
Kelly Brown (Sco) 69
Chris Robshaw (Eng) 65
Thierry Dusautoir (Fra) 58
Ryan Grant (Sco) 52

[ChequeredJersey]

I guess that is nearly 9 tackles average each match, just doesn't seem as big as it is

I wonder what the average tackle per player in international rugby. Lads like Brown, Faletau and Lydiate really boost the stats that players like Quade Cooper, Dan Parks and Chris Ashton famously dwindle.

Robshaw made 65 this 6N (only 4 in the first match) which is pretty good going

[jimmyinthewell68]

i dont really get the tackle count . if a players tackle high dont it mean the other side playing better and more attacking rugby .

[ChequeredJersey]

i dont really get the tackle count . if a players tackle high dont it mean the other side playing better and more attacking rugby .

Well that's what a high tackle count for a team indicates, though it's not that clear cut. For players the rate tells you how good their tackling is in a way and the number is an indicator of workrate. Forwards are generally active tacklers as they are not set in position in open play so it's really up to them how many tackles they make (that's very simplified but the general idea)

[fa0019]

Can't view it on its own but when you look at it with tackle completion rate and territory and possession stats then its easy to distinguish its true worth.

[jimmyinthewell68]

i dont really get the tackle count . if a players tackle high dont it mean the other side playing better and more attacking rugby .

Well that's what a high tackle count for a team indicates, though it's not that clear cut. For players the rate tells you how good their tackling is in a way and the number is an indicator of workrate. Forwards are generally active tacklers as they are not set in position in open play so it's really up to them how many tackles they make (that's very simplified but the general idea)

[quote]

[Totalflanker]

43 tackles is joint 10th overall?!

Joe Launchbury made 51 tackles - highest of any lock & as good as many flankers.


Top tacklers in 6 Nations

Tom Wood (Eng) 70
Kelly Brown (Sco) 69
Chris Robshaw (Eng) 65
Thierry Dusautoir (Fra) 58
Ryan Grant (Sco) 52

Does go a long way to showing the worth of stats - given the above, Gatland for one doesn't appear to put much stock in them!!

[fa0019]

43 tackles is joint 10th overall?!

Joe Launchbury made 51 tackles - highest of any lock & as good as many flankers.


Top tacklers in 6 Nations

Tom Wood (Eng) 70
Kelly Brown (Sco) 69
Chris Robshaw (Eng) 65
Thierry Dusautoir (Fra) 58
Ryan Grant (Sco) 52

Does go a long way to showing the worth of stats - given the above, Gatland for one doesn't appear to put much stock in them!!

Tackling is only one part of the game, flankers need to have an all-round game. Most people would have had at least Brown or Robshaw in their squad mind.... Gatland used his Jonny Wilkinson 05 card in picking Dan Lydiate.

How that pulls off we'll see in due course.... very few people in rugby come back full guns blazing after a long stint out. I'm hopeful but not expecting him to play a major part in the tour... he may be ready to perform in club games, I doubt he will be ready for tests.

[maestegmafia]

very few people in rugby come back full guns blazing after a long stint out. I'm hopeful but not expecting him to play a major part in the tour... he may be ready to perform in club games, I doubt he will be ready for tests.

Like Tom Croft or Paul O'Connell...?

You obviously haven't watched much welsh rugby have you. Lydiate is in great form.

[fa0019]

absolutely Maestegmafia

Although Croft has been back for a couple of months.... was available half way through the 6N and was playing club rugby (limited by a wary Leicester) in March.
Lydiate has had what 2 games back after a longterm injury.

[fa0019]

Club rugby is what it is.... Club rugby.

Lets see how he goes on Saturday. Fingers crossed he'll be back but being an old cynic and failing to recall any player that blasted back to his best instantly I would be pleasantly surprised if he is 100% in fitness and form.

[123456789]

very few people in rugby come back full guns blazing after a long stint out. I'm hopeful but not expecting him to play a major part in the tour... he may be ready to perform in club games, I doubt he will be ready for tests.

Like Tom Croft or Paul O'Connell...?

You obviously haven't watched much welsh rugby have you. Lydiate is in great form.

Dan Lydiate played fewer games all of which were meaningless, Croft's been playing since the 6N and has played in very important games i.e the Premiership final and POC played in the Heineken and a large amount of the Rabo added to the fact he's a colossus who's played very, very well consistently for years and has clearly proven himself or he wouldn't be captain

[jimmyinthewell68]

just read article by worsley picking croft to chop down lydiate and take the lions test place .

[RubyGuby]

Sounds like Dan Lydiate is the new Mike Phillips for non welsh fans - Go Danny Boy chop 'em down and drive them back

[belovedfrosties]

just read article by worsley picking croft to chop down lydiate and take the lions test place .

I sincerely hope he does, Croft offers far more than Lydiate does, tackles just as much and just as well (lydiate doesn't tackle anywhere near as much as the pundits would have you believe), hits rucks like him and carries just as much. Croft also brings an x-factor like no other backrow (possibly SOB) and is also great in the lineout, the hard fast tracks and slightly less physical Aussies will also suit him no end.

[bedfordwelsh]

Dan gets my vote everytime and I am pretty sure he will prove all his doubters (some Welsh as well) wrong again

[RubyGuby]

Did Croft play against Wales?

[jimmyinthewell68]

i can see lydiate chopping down the barbarians ball carriers tips turnover and flung out wide for the wings

[RubyGuby]

i can see lydiate chopping down the barbarians ball carriers tips turnover and flung out wide for the wings

Where have I seen that recently

[belovedfrosties]

Yeah we get it, Wales comprehensively beat england, well done, but it would be foolish to base the test team that plays against the Wallabies on a one off game.

[jimmyinthewell68]

gatland said he going to give everyone a start in the first 3 games . so western force game could be mostly Irish and English one or two Welsh and no Scottish because they used their 3 this Saturday

[RubyGuby]

Yeah we get it, Wales comprehensively beat england, well done, but it would be foolish to base the test team that plays against the Wallabies on a one off game.

Then you should stop worrying about anyone being foolish - I'm not worried and I see no reason for you to be

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

My Wishlist for this game:

1: no injuries
2: that the gray/poc partnership is effective and that as a pair they cover getting around the field while dominating both set pieces.
3: that Farrell shows he can be creative and doesn't rely on his boot or offloading to crash ball options
4: that Hogg has a stormer as I think he could be the fullback that the lions need.
5: tipuric shows the sort of form that will force warbs to 6

[yappysnap]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4BaJ0tC0XQ

That try against Ireland was sublime!

[Scrumdown]

Yeah we get it, Wales comprehensively beat england, well done, but it would be foolish to base the test team that plays against the Wallabies on a one off game.

But they are world cup semi finalists, 2012 grand slam winners and 2013 six nations winners, so hardly based on one off game v England personal attack removed

[Rory_Gallagher]

Why all the optimism for Best's prospects? Hard to see him going from 4th choice to 1st just because he eventually got his plane ticket. Gats obviously doesn't rate him.

Probably because, Keith Wood the ex irish international and current rugby pundit is his number one supporter and therefore often gets selected in lions xvs.

In reality he is not as powerful as hibbard or as dynamic as tom young which is why Gatland did not originally pick him.

If Ken Owens was fit, then I am sure that he would have been called up instead if Best.

Almost like the hype surrounding Dan Lydiate, started by a certain Jonathan Davies?

[belovedfrosties]

Yeah we get it, Wales comprehensively beat england, well done, but it would be foolish to base the test team that plays against the Wallabies on a one off game.

But they are world cup semi finalists, 2012 grand slam winners and 2013 six nations winners, so hardly based on one off game v England you cretin!

If you read back over what i had said previously then you would see that this was about the merits of croft over lydiate, not england over wales as a whole.

And watch the insults, they tend to make you look the fool if you have no idea what you're responding to

[RubyGuby]

Croft and Lydiate are both top class performers who offer something different - As usual its about getting the balance of the back row right and with Warburton, SOB and Tipuric it is an area where we have strength and dynamism. Gats has a lot of permutations depending on what style he's after

[maestegmafia]

The same happens every lions tour. welsh, Scots and Irish players are talked down by the English fans who know little if anything about rugby outside of the England team, or maybe their club if they have one.

After a few games of supporting the Lions, players of all the home nations they suddenly see how incredibly talented many of the Irish, Scots and Welsh players are.

For a month at least, before they forget and continue on how great JW is...!


Best to just ignore them

[belovedfrosties]

Very true rugbyguby, either whatever back row Gats puts out will definitely be a strong one.

Maesteg, that may be what you do with other players but its not what i do, i know this might be hard for you to understand as a welshman, but i rate players on their abilities, not on their nationality.

[100%beefy]

some on here have no clue, if you ever sat in a Lions enclosure pre or post game all you would see is Brits and Irish - almost empirically proud in our greatness!
I am fed up with the infighting....it's the British and Irish Lions, English, Welsh Scots and Irish...i bet they ain't bitching and moaning like wimmin so why do the fans have to......time to put your national biases and dislikes away and support the FORKING TEAM!

[king_carlos]

Given the players rested I'd say it's very good side that Gatland has chosen. As a whole it's well balanced I just hope that the game plan employed uses the players there to the best of their ability. I'm hoping to see the heavy duty gainline runs taken on by the likes of Vunipola, Hibbard, Gray and Faletau as that would leave the big Welsh units like Roberts, Davies and Cuthbert to show the more creative side their game.

It's one thing I feel is forgotten, that despite those Welsh backs often being used as battering rams all of them are much more than it that. Cuthbert and North are capable of running very smart lines, Roberts has a brilliant off loading game and Davies is capable of beating the first man consistently if given any space. Throw in Maitland and Hoggs pace along with Tipuric's potential in the outside channels and the side has a lot of potential to play attacking but still structured rugby.

I'll be watching how Lydiate does closely as well, as I haven't seen much of him since he's returned. At full fitness I rate him highly because he can be brilliant in defense but given the pace of the game Oz will employ I still feel Kelly Brown could have brought a huge amount to the tour given his work rate on the floor slowing down opposition ball.

It's going to be an interesting game to watch though, I just hope I can still be optimistic after I've seen the gameplan that's being employed!

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