Singapore Gp Thread - Contains Race/Qualifying Spoilers

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

The bright lights of the Marina Bay circuit provide the welcome this week as F1 heads east for the Singapore Grand Prix, the 13th round of the 2013 FIA Formula One World Championship. After the high-speed demands of Monza, the streets of Singapore offer a very different challenge.

With 23 corners, unforgiving walls and a lap time longer than at any other current grand prix, Marina Bay demands ultimate concentration from drivers – but Singapore does everything it can to shake that concentration. Between the abundant undulations of the city boulevards, the glare of the lights, the high temperatures and the humidity, Singapore presents perhaps the sternest challenge of the racing year.

Since joining the World Championship calendar in 2008, the Singapore Grand Prix has been won by just three drivers, who are also the three men leading the chase for the 2013 drivers’ title. Fernando Alonso won in 2008 and 2010, bracketing a win for Lewis Hamilton in 2009. The last two runnings of the race have seen Sebastian Vettel victorious.

In 2012 Singapore marked the start of a four-race winning sequence for Vettel that saw him steadily diminish Alonso’s lead in the drivers’ championship. Vettel comes to Singapore this year in much better shape, off the back of wins in Belgium and Italy, both executed in imperious fashion. In doing so the reigning World Champion has established a lead of 53 points over Alonso and 81 over Hamilton.

Vettel isn’t expected to have it quite so easy on the streets of Marina Bay. The strategic significance of track position, the ever-present threat of safety cars and forecast thunderstorms all contribute to make this grand prix potentially more complicated that those that have preceded it.

► The Singapore Grand Prix has always ran close to the two-hour maximum race time. The shortest Singapore Grand Prix to date was the 2009 race, won by Lewis Hamilton for McLaren in a time of 1:56:06.337. Fernando Alonso’s victories in 2008 and 2010 were both completed in 1h57m and Sebastian Vettel’s triumph in 2011 pushed that out to 1h59m. The 2012 race was the slowest to date with Vettel’s winning time recorded as 2:00:26.144. Having gone beyond the two-hour cut-off point, the chequered flag was waved after 59 laps on this occasion instead of the scheduled 61. This was the first time since 2008 a grand prix had been completed by duration rather than distance.
► The above statistic paints a slightly false picture, as the Singapore Grand Prix has never been allowed to go the distance at racing speeds. The safety car has appeared every year to slow down proceedings. The proximity of barriers and the difficulty in accessing the circuit to clear wreckage make this circuit a high-probability candidate for a safety car deployment – something race strategists have to factor into their calculations. ► Despite being the grand prix that takes the longest to complete, Singapore has a higher average speed than Monaco. The disparity is explained by the Monaco Grand Prix running over a shorter distance than the rest of the calendar.
► In common with Monaco, Singapore is a maximum downforce circuit (and therefore sits at the opposite end of the scale to Monza). Other notable setup factors are necessitated by the uneven nature of the street surfaces and the need to attack kerbs through the tight right-angle street junctions. To address these issues, teams raise their ride-height and also set up with maximum suspension travel.
► The Formula One race is the second iteration of the Singapore Grand Prix. Its predecessor is a Formula Libre race which, having previously been called the Malaysian Grand Prix, became the Singapore Grand Prix after the city-state gained independence. The original incarnation of the Singapore Grand Prix ran from 1966-1973. ► Over the five-race history of the modern Singapore Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button are the only drivers to have completed every lap of every race.
► Despite the ever-present threat of rain in the tropics, and the frequent showers and thunderstorms that have preceded and followed the race, the Singapore Grand Prix has, to date, always been a dry race.
► Pirelli is bringing its Supersoft and Medium compounds to Singapore. This combination has been used in 2013 at the Australian and Canadian Grands Prix. As was the case in Montreal, Singapore is nominally going a step harder this year, Pirelli having allocated the Supersoft and Soft compounds in 2012 and 2011.

Weather Forecast:http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/1880252
Source: FIA

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

By the sounds of it I could jump into the Red Bull and win the title at a canter

[CaledonianCraig]

I liken their situation to that of footballers with talent playing for lesser teams. Gareth Bale will never win international honours as Wales are not good enough but does that make him a lesser player than one that plays for Spain who will win more international honours as he is in a far more accomplished team? No not necessarily.

[GSC]

The point here is that it proves that Vettel's season has happened for other drivers before at lesser teams and will happen again. Look at Di Resta for example (not lately) but he picked up many points finishes in a mid-division team and could list plenty of others but they never got (or have yet to get) a Red Bull-esque drive.

No you just proved somebody who fluked a win was comparatively worse than Vettel. Way to go

[CaledonianCraig]

But remember - I have said it before and will say it again my opinion can be changed of Vettel. If I see him away from the Red Bull cocoon or in a team with a comparably fast driver alongside him and he out-performs them then that is the thing that will sway me. What he is doing at the moment is winning from the front in a car that is streets ahead of the others - I and other F1 fans want to see him tested.

Now I read a comment earlier on from a poster moaning that something should be done to curtail the Red Bull pace almost saying it isn't fair well I think that is nonsense. We have had spells in the past akin to this domination with other teams such as Lotus in the early 80's Williams in the 90's, McLaren and Ferrari in the 00's. Now it is Red Bull's turn and it is up to the other teams to innovate and look to surpass Red Bull and that is how it should be - not things interfered with to negate one team. I don't find the domination interesting but is is what it is.

[CaledonianCraig]

The point here is that it proves that Vettel's season has happened for other drivers before at lesser teams and will happen again. Look at Di Resta for example (not lately) but he picked up many points finishes in a mid-division team and could list plenty of others but they never got (or have yet to get) a Red Bull-esque drive.

No you just proved somebody who fluked a win was comparatively worse than Vettel. Way to go

No I didn't at all. Besides as I recall it Monza (Vettel's win at Torro Rosso that year) was a wet race and every Fi fan with half a brain knows what a great leveller rain is and Vettel took advantage. Maldonado's win at least came in dry conditions so I cannot see how you call that fluking a win and not Vettel's in the rain.

[GSC]

You acted as though someone who acquired 10 more points in a longer season where wins were worth 15 points more was close to on a par.

To take a spin on your analogy, does Messi need to play for Sunderland to prove he's world class. Or does he need to move to Real Madrid and beat out Ronaldo?

[bogbrush]

The point here is that you didn't realise the points system changed, let's be honest.

You really need to read up on the guy, you don't seem to realise he's been tipped for the very top long before RB got him. You probably don't realise he was the youngest guy ever to get a point, and the youngest guy ever to win a race. Still, Maldonado eh?

[bogbrush]

The point here is that it proves that Vettel's season has happened for other drivers before at lesser teams and will happen again. Look at Di Resta for example (not lately) but he picked up many points finishes in a mid-division team and could list plenty of others but they never got (or have yet to get) a Red Bull-esque drive.

No you just proved somebody who fluked a win was comparatively worse than Vettel. Way to go

No I didn't at all. Besides as I recall it Monza (Vettel's win at Torro Rosso that year) was a wet race and every Fi fan with half a brain knows what a great leveller rain is and Vettel took advantage. Maldonado's win at least came in dry conditions so I cannot see how you call that fluking a win and not Vettel's in the rain.

I guess he'd fluked himself onto pole as well.  

[CaledonianCraig]

Well quali was in wet as well as examplified by teammate Sebastien Bourdais qualifying fourth. And Bourdais was struck by misfortune on the grid as he stalled his car and had to be pushed back into the pits and by the time they restarted his car he was a lap down.

[CaledonianCraig]

The point here is that you didn't realise the points system changed, let's be honest.

You really need to read up on the guy, you don't seem to realise he's been tipped for the very top long before RB got him. You probably don't realise he was the youngest guy ever to get a point, and the youngest guy ever to win a race. Still, Maldonado eh?

And there is much you don't know either. Such as was test driver at Sauber before his Torro Rosso days and no other teams were swarming over him like flies in fact Williams never took him on.

Lets just accept the differing opinion here eh? You think Vettel is the best thing since sliced bread - fair enough. I think he is a very fast driver who has got the breaks and has taken a golden opportunity and taken it with both hands but I am, at present, unwilling to see him as an all-time great. Not a shootable offence is it?

[bogbrush]

Well quali was in wet as well as examplified by teammate Sebastien Bourdais qualifying fourth. And Bourdais was struck by misfortune on the grid as he stalled his car and had to be pushed back into the pits and by the time they restarted his car he was a lap down.

So, he had the fastest time in 2nd qualy, the fastest time in 3rd qualy, won the race mostly from the front, and you want to put that down as a flukey thing that can happen in the wet. You do know that such comments are usually reserved for events like pile ups, multiple tyre change races that hand it to a guy who lucked onto the right strategy, not the guy who just proved he could drive everyone else off in a vastly inferior car.

Honestly, this is just funny now.

[bogbrush]

The point here is that you didn't realise the points system changed, let's be honest.

You really need to read up on the guy, you don't seem to realise he's been tipped for the very top long before RB got him. You probably don't realise he was the youngest guy ever to get a point, and the youngest guy ever to win a race. Still, Maldonado eh?

And there is much you don't know either. Such as was test driver at Sauber before his Torro Rosso days and no other teams were swarming over him like flies in fact Williams never took him on.

Lets just accept the differing opinion here eh? You think Vettel is the best thing since sliced bread - fair enough. I think he is a very fast driver who has got the breaks and has taken a golden opportunity and taken it with both hands but I am, at present, unwilling to see him as an all-time great. Not a shootable offence is it?

Yeah, a kid at Sauber. Where he became the youngest driver ever to gain a point in F1.  

No, I don't think he's the best thing since sliced bread. As always you don't read / comprehend (how many times have I pointed THAT out to you?); I think he's a superb driver, improving every year. He is now probably (I put that in bold for you so it's clear) the best driver, driving the best car, and it's showing in the results. He will get better. He could become an all time great, he has that potential.

[CaledonianCraig]

And you have trouble comprehending as well. I have said for ages basically that - he is a very fast driver, a multiple world champion which is a great feat but an all-time great - not yet. He may become one but that depends on various things. I'd disagree with the best driver bit as he has a big advantage over the other great drivers of this era. Red Bull since 2010 have won more races (35) than all of their closest rivals put together with Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes winning 34 races in the same time span.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Vettel could become an all-time great, no doubt about that. He's well on his way to doing that. Unfotrunately it looks like he's going to go through a decent chunk of his career without having a proper challenger in his team, which makes people wonder if it's him or the car. A bit of both I suspect, there's no doubting he's a very fine driver, but I would like to see him in with a competitive team-mate, just to make things a bit more interesting.

Unlikely to happen, for the simple reason that the modern blueprint for success seems to be to have a very fast car with one very fast driver, and a second OK one, good enough to get the points to secure the Constructors championship but not good enough to regularly take points off the n°1 driver. Of course, this blueprint was mostly set by Schumacher who won his titles with Barichello as his n°2. Alonso has had one year with a competitive teammate (who beat him), so it's not only Vettel.

I think part of the reason I'm struggling to warm to him is due to his antics in his first title winning season where he basically blamed every crash on others (with the backing of his team, even when he drove into his own teammate). For the record, I think he's been superb the last two seasons, and hard to fault, but I still can't warm to him. Of course that might also be because I find it dull watching the same guy win over and over again...

[CaledonianCraig]

Unlikely to happen, for the simple reason that the modern blueprint for success seems to be to have a very fast car with one very fast driver, and a second OK one, good enough to get the points to secure the Constructors championship but not good enough to regularly take points off the n°1 driver. Of course, this blueprint was mostly set by Schumacher who won his titles with Barichello as his n°2. Alonso has had one year with a competitive teammate (who beat him), so it's not only Vettel.

It depends on the team/driver standpoint I think. For many years Ferrari were in the camp of lead driver and rear gunner basically because they had a mighty strong package and were guaranteed to be in the title hunt on both fronts with that strategy. We saw it in the Schumacher years and the Alonso years but now Ferrari realise they don't have a strong package that guarantees title challenges and so to maximise the amount of points they can pick up they are going for the two top drivers approach that McLaren had for a time but have now headed in the other direction. When Red Bull came to prominence they had two top drivers which has morphed into top driver/rear gunner not by choice I think just that Webber was not champion material ever and has lost his edge in the last two years. Now for Red Bull they definitely do not want to upset the applecart hence the Riccardio option and not the Raikonnen option.

[Guest]

No pedigree before McLaren? Formula 3 Champion/GP2 Champion.....etc. I don't go on about Vettel being beaten by Di Resta prior to F1. Vettel is a good driver & he's destroyed Webber, however his achievements are nothing that Alonso or another top driver couldn't of achieved. If Alonso joined RB back in 2010, he'd be a six time world champion by now.

You can interpret what Brundle said, however he can`t rate him too highly seeing as he constantly blogs stating Hamilton is the fastest man in F1 & Alonso the most complete. F1 is about luck & timing & he's taking full advantage, which is credit to him. I still won`t judge Vettel, like alot of people, until at least 2015/16, when hopefully he decides to take on a worthy team-mate in a non-newey car. Will he take that risk & challenge himself or put his reputation on the line is the big question. If he does, my respect for him will grow & then we will witness how `great` Vettel really is. That's how I see it.

Like I say, I rate Hamilton, but he's never raced a lowly car like Vettel has. As for Vettel pre-F1, well he was a child so lets not get too excited about that.

Vettel was a child pre-f1 and because he achieved very little, got beat by Di Resta in the same machinery......we'll just sweep it under the carpet. Thought you might do that.

Look Bogbrush, I'm not having a go & the majority of people's blueprint on here is not, 'Vettel is average'. He's a good driver and has significant talent that has improved as he's matured and become more and more comfortable with the RB car, however, there is no denying the fact he has lucked in considerably in F1. The sport & the majority of all past world champions have lucked into the fastest cars & Vettel joining RB with Newey is no exception. He's defeated an embarrassingly poor teammate & for the 90% of his wins, has basically just led from pole, not actually raced anyone & barely seen another car in the same race. That is not impressive to me, not sure why Lauda is lauding yesterday's performance. Vettel was over two seconds quicker than Rosberg in second yesterday after the restart......natural ability or Newey's modified mid-season diffuser upgrade & seven winglet front wing? Sebastian Vettel is a great driver, leading from the front in the fastest car, so would Alonso, so would Kimi & so would Hamilton. Has Vettel ever won a F1 Grand Prix, when qualified lower than 3rd? THE ANSWER IS NO.

[GSC]

On what planet is Webber embarrassingly poor. He's at least on a par with Massa post crash and better than Kovalainen/Rosberg

[CaledonianCraig]

On what planet is Webber embarrassingly poor. He's at least on a par with Massa post crash and better than Kovalainen/Rosberg

He is poor compared to other top drivers. Correct he is on a par with Massa post-crash as you note the similarities in points scored between Alonso/Massa and Vettel/Webber - very similar.

[Fernando]

On what planet is Webber embarrassingly poor. He's at least on a par with Massa post crash and better than Kovalainen/Rosberg

He is poor compared to other top drivers. Correct he is on a par with Massa post-crash as you note the similarities in points scored between Alonso/Massa and Vettel/Webber - very similar.

GSC is correct here, No WDC in ages i could go back about 96-97 has had a competitive teammate, If you want a WDC it's No.1 & No.2 and that's the only way to do it.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well that is not strictly accurate. Hamilton and Button were both world champions and drove for McLaren - they challenged for the title but never won it.

[Guest]

Vettel 12-1 Webber in race (Vettel leading in Silverstone then DNF)
Vettel 13-0 Webber in qualifying

If that's not embarrassing, I don't know what is.

Agree, GSC, that the no.1 & no.2 way of doing things is most effective but that does not stop Webber from actually competing.

[Fernando]

Well that is not strictly accurate. Hamilton and Button were both world champions and drove for McLaren - they challenged for the title but never won it.

But you just confirmed my point CC they never won it whilst in an equal partnership. If you look at the times people won their world titles you have to go back to 96-97 for a competitive teammate.  

Hakkinen had DC
Schumi/Button had Rubens
Hamilton had Heikki
Raikkonen had Massa
Alonso had Trulli/Fisichella
Vettel has Webber

You can challenge for a title with an equal partnership but it won't win you one as history suggests anyway.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well quali was in wet as well as examplified by teammate Sebastien Bourdais qualifying fourth. And Bourdais was struck by misfortune on the grid as he stalled his car and had to be pushed back into the pits and by the time they restarted his car he was a lap down.

So, he had the fastest time in 2nd qualy, the fastest time in 3rd qualy, won the race mostly from the front, and you want to put that down as a flukey thing that can happen in the wet. You do know that such comments are usually reserved for events like pile ups, multiple tyre change races that hand it to a guy who lucked onto the right strategy, not the guy who just proved he could drive everyone else off in a vastly inferior car.

Honestly, this is just funny now.

Excuse me? It was GSC who brought the term 'fluking' into this discussion so point your finger in that direction as I was merely quoting him. Shall we look back through wet grand prixs? It is a known fact it shakes things up and to deny it displays a distinct lack of F1 knowledge - remember Jordan winning the Belgian Grand Prix in the wet? Why do you think all the lesser teams always like to see a bit of rain? Because it shakes things up. Fact is Vettel won for Torro Rosso from pole in a wet race whilst Maldonado won for Williams in a dry race - work out which is the more impressive performance.

[beninho]

Can we clear up the statement about Vettel scoring points on his debut, it keeps being mentioned he was driving a Sauber, while this is correct it was better known as a BMW, and that season was 3rd best car on the grid, he didnt drag an uncompetitive dog of a car into the points.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well that is not strictly accurate. Hamilton and Button were both world champions and drove for McLaren - they challenged for the title but never won it.

But you just confirmed my point CC they never won it whilst in an equal partnership. If you look at the times people won their world titles you have to go back to 96-97 for a competitive teammate.  

Hakkinen had DC
Schumi/Button had Rubens
Hamilton had Heikki
Raikkonen had Massa
Alonso had Trulli/Fisichella
Vettel has Webber

You can challenge for a title with an equal partnership but it won't win you one as history suggests anyway.

Yes that is true. Team make-ups though do tend to depend on the team standing. Title challenging teams with strong package will invariably favour a lead driver and rear gunner partnership. Teams looking to progress up the grid will pack the team with the best drivers they can get to maximise points scoring. Less well off teams in recent times have went for drivers who bring in much-needed sponsorship money and care less of their capabilities. Red Bull started off as a team having two lead drivers but once Vettel established himself and Webber fell away then they have adopted the lead driver ethic as can clearly be seen by their next choice of driver. Ferrari on the other hand are going in the other direction - employing two top drivers in a bid to maximise point scoring in anyway that they can to make up for the package which is no longer the strongest technically.

[beninho]

It does help when a team has one stand out performer. If Mclaren had backed Alonso, then he would have walked that title, instead he and Lewis ended level on points and pipped by Kimi. If they had settled on one of them then Title should have been over before the last race.

[GSC]

The one where the fastest car didn't get wiped off pole for being underfueled by about .1 of a litre?

[Guest]

Can we clear up the statement about Vettel scoring points on his debut, it keeps being mentioned he was driving a Sauber, while this is correct it was better known as a BMW, and that season was 3rd best car on the grid, he didnt drag an uncompetitive dog of a car into the points.

yeah, vettel fans want to big it up like it was a sauber from the low-midfield or something. just like they want to sweep under the carpet that he got beat by di resta pre-f1. doesnt surprise me.

Still not heard a response about webber being embarrassing, which he is and what the stats backup. 12-1 in race & 13-0 in qualifying to vettel. oh dear.

[CaledonianCraig]

Can we clear up the statement about Vettel scoring points on his debut, it keeps being mentioned he was driving a Sauber, while this is correct it was better known as a BMW, and that season was 3rd best car on the grid, he didnt drag an uncompetitive dog of a car into the points.

yeah, vettel fans want to big it up like it was a sauber from the low-midfield or something. just like they want to sweep under the carpet that he got beat by di resta pre-f1. doesnt surprise me.

Still not heard a response about webber being embarrassing, which he is and what the stats backup. 12-1 in race & 13-0 in qualifying to vettel. oh dear.

It may be excuses on his part or not but Webber does say that he fell out of love with F1 a year or two ago. Perhaps this explains his sizeable performance dip in that time.

[GSC]

Perhaps Vettels big lead is because he's a superb driver who also happens to be very consistent?

[CaledonianCraig]

Perhaps Vettels big lead is because he's a superb driver who also happens to be very consistent?

Compared to Webber you mean? Yes that would be fair.

[beninho]

Of course he is a very good driver, no one argues this point. And he is exceptional when at the front of the grid and in a car faster then the rest, meaning he is able to build up a lead and control his pace. That is obvious. Are vettel fans really needy and want everyone to have the same opinion as them?

[SteveG]

Well that is not strictly accurate. Hamilton and Button were both world champions and drove for McLaren - they challenged for the title but never won it.

But you just confirmed my point CC they never won it whilst in an equal partnership. You can challenge for a title with an equal partnership but it won't win you one as history suggests anyway.

Maybe so but I'd argue that the two titles that Hamilton should have won but didnt (2007 and 2012) was not down to the fact that he wasn't a number one.

[GSC]

That's kinda the point though. Don't win titles if your teammates taking points off you

I do also feel, and not for the first time that this board is slightly unfair on Mark Webber.

[Guest]

Never unfair on Webber. Yeah, i get the 'nice guy' story....I think he's a cool guy but at the end of the day, he's not in the same league as any of the top guys and has played probably the most important part in why Vettel has dominated the sport with no real competition. What can't you understand about being beaten four years in a row and this season being utterly & comprehensively destroyed 12-1 in races & 13-0 in qualifying. I mean, c'mon. Embarrassing.

Had to laugh at the DM's F1 story. It reads, based on this saunter in Singapore, it will take North Korea to invade South Korea, an earthquake to hit Japan, dengue fever to take hold in India, a sandstorm to brew in Abu Dhabi, a shooting to convulse Texas and a gunpoint mugging in Brazil to disturb Sebastian Vettel’s serene progress to his latest world title. And even then he would probably come through, wagging his finger in victory.

Perfectly sums it up, bad teammate & an unbelievable car that can't be matched.

[SteveG]

That's kinda the point though. Don't win titles if your teammates taking points off you

In general I agree but in Hamiltons case last year it wasnt his teammate he needed to worry about - it was Mclaren! EEK!!

[bogbrush]

Perhaps Vettels big lead is because he's a superb driver who also happens to be very consistent?

Compared to Webber you mean? Yes that would be fair.

See, that's when you blow all pretence at being a rational observer.

Anyone with a brain knows the guy is a wonderful driver. Nikki Lauda was singing his praises from the rooftops yesterday.

[bogbrush]

That's kinda the point though. Don't win titles if your teammates taking points off you

I do also feel, and not for the first time that this board is slightly unfair on Mark Webber.

Look no further than 2007 for proof of that!

Webber HAS to be annihilated because it's part of the "Vettel is ordinary" argument. It sits alongside "sabotaged car". Stand by for "Riccardo is garbage", coming up next year.

[Guest]

Oh my god, are you an *****. Where have we said, 'Vettel is ordinary or average'. Your the only one saying those words. I've said & many others on here, Vettel is a good driver but as of yet cannot be judged in terms of his greatness until further down the line, when a clearer picture emerges of his talent & his career has progressed past RB, which it will at some point, & enters a new chapter. Vettel is a great driver, in that car, when he's on pole. He's clearly comfortable in the RB 'cocoon' as someone suggested it & knows his ability far exceeds his team-mate.

Ricciardo is a bright talent, yet has really achieved nothing in the sport, other than showcase a faster pace in qualifying than the distinctly average J E Vergne. Is Ricciardo, as you put it.....garbage? We don't know yet, he might well be, because he's proven nothing, still very inexperienced at the top level & has to settle into a new car & environment alongside a four time world champion. Not easy.

[CaledonianCraig]

Perhaps Vettels big lead is because he's a superb driver who also happens to be very consistent?

Compared to Webber you mean? Yes that would be fair.

See, that's when you blow all pretence at being a rational observer.

Anyone with a brain knows the guy is a wonderful driver. Nikki Lauda was singing his praises from the rooftops yesterday.

 

So 'a rational observer' I am not merely because I am not one for giving Vettel an oral examination of his backside? How odd? Ooooh BB how you have changed your opinion. Whenever Murray fans quoted Mac or any other ex-greats of tennis when lauding Murray we were told they were only saying what the media wanted to hear so how is this in anyway different now?

Anyway I have made my point - Vettel is a great driver but an all-time great - not yet. Sadly, you cannot seem to accept that.

[GSC]

That's kinda the point though. Don't win titles if your teammates taking points off you

I do also feel, and not for the first time that this board is slightly unfair on Mark Webber.

Look no further than 2007 for proof of that!

Webber HAS to be annihilated because it's part of the "Vettel is ordinary" argument. It sits alongside "sabotaged car". Stand by for "Riccardo is garbage", coming up next year.

Webber is supposedly bad but RB have to sabotage him apparently

[CaledonianCraig]

Just a totally random question here:-

What did F1 need more? Raikkonen moving to Ferrari or Raikonnen moving to Red Bull?

[GSC]

F1 needs Vettel to call it a day.

[CaledonianCraig]

Seriously GSC, it needed Raikkonen to go to Red Bull. But the way teams set up their driver pairings I suppose it was out of the question at Red Bull.

[bogbrush]

Seriously GSC, it needed Raikkonen to go to Red Bull. But the way teams set up their driver pairings I suppose it was out of the question at Red Bull.

Yeah, they have a long term strategy thing going on that means they bring in drivers for the future rather than going for short term fixes. Will it work? Who knows, if only there was some evidence of it paying off.....

[CaledonianCraig]

Of course BB and I understand that. They are looking at it from a team standpoint and they are on the verge of four consecutive world titles so why rock the boat? I am purely speaking from a fans viewpoint. F1 would have been far more interesting with Raikkonen at Red Bull than Ferrari.

[bogbrush]

That's kinda the point though. Don't win titles if your teammates taking points off you

I do also feel, and not for the first time that this board is slightly unfair on Mark Webber.

Look no further than 2007 for proof of that!

Webber HAS to be annihilated because it's part of the "Vettel is ordinary" argument. It sits alongside "sabotaged car". Stand by for "Riccardo is garbage", coming up next year.

Webber is supposedly bad but RB have to sabotage him apparently

That's how rubbish Vettel is; they have to sabotage a poor driver.

By the way, when did it make sense to hire one mediocre and one rubbish driver, spend shedloads of money developing a car, then sabotage the rubbish one? I mean, I've seen pretty much every strategy so far but that Christian Horner guy has thrown everyone off the trail with this.

[bogbrush]

Of course BB and I understand that. They are looking at it from a team standpoint and they are on the verge of four consecutive world titles so why rock the boat? I am purely speaking from a fans viewpoint. F1 would have been far more interesting with Raikkonen at Red Bull than Ferrari.

Wouldn't have helped, except to tie up the team title quicker. Vettel beats Rainkonnen. Vettel 2013 is much better than Vettel 2011, and kicks Vettel 2010 into touch easy. I think Vettel 2014 will be better again. He's 26.

[Guest]

Vettel beats Raikkonen????? Didn't know you could predict the future. That's the same Vettel who couldn't beat Di Resta in the same machinery, right?

As for the discussion, agree, Raikkonen @ RB would of been more exciting but only just more exciting that taking on Alonso & Ferrari. The main upside in Raikkonen moving to RB is that it would have probably ended the Vettel debate. It would have ultimately & definitely asked all the 'up in the air' questions & doubts about Vettel's true ability & achievements in the sport. RB's decision was of a team call, therefore Vettel can't be blamed for the decision. Seeing as it has not happened, unfortunately means more pointless arguments & opinions will continue to be thrown around, by the viewers, in regards to Vettel's apparent 'level of greatness'.

[CaledonianCraig]

Of course BB and I understand that. They are looking at it from a team standpoint and they are on the verge of four consecutive world titles so why rock the boat? I am purely speaking from a fans viewpoint. F1 would have been far more interesting with Raikkonen at Red Bull than Ferrari.

Wouldn't have helped, except to tie up the team title quicker. Vettel beats Rainkonnen. Vettel 2013 is much better than Vettel 2011, and kicks Vettel 2010 into touch easy. I think Vettel 2014 will be better again. He's 26.

Vettel (Red Bull) beats Raikkonen (Lotus) of course but in the same car? Who knows and would have answered a few questions I reckon. I mean be honest BB take Seb out of Red Bull and put him in the Lotus and Raikkonn would also beat Vettel.

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