Singapore Gp Thread - Contains Race/Qualifying Spoilers

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

The bright lights of the Marina Bay circuit provide the welcome this week as F1 heads east for the Singapore Grand Prix, the 13th round of the 2013 FIA Formula One World Championship. After the high-speed demands of Monza, the streets of Singapore offer a very different challenge.

With 23 corners, unforgiving walls and a lap time longer than at any other current grand prix, Marina Bay demands ultimate concentration from drivers – but Singapore does everything it can to shake that concentration. Between the abundant undulations of the city boulevards, the glare of the lights, the high temperatures and the humidity, Singapore presents perhaps the sternest challenge of the racing year.

Since joining the World Championship calendar in 2008, the Singapore Grand Prix has been won by just three drivers, who are also the three men leading the chase for the 2013 drivers’ title. Fernando Alonso won in 2008 and 2010, bracketing a win for Lewis Hamilton in 2009. The last two runnings of the race have seen Sebastian Vettel victorious.

In 2012 Singapore marked the start of a four-race winning sequence for Vettel that saw him steadily diminish Alonso’s lead in the drivers’ championship. Vettel comes to Singapore this year in much better shape, off the back of wins in Belgium and Italy, both executed in imperious fashion. In doing so the reigning World Champion has established a lead of 53 points over Alonso and 81 over Hamilton.

Vettel isn’t expected to have it quite so easy on the streets of Marina Bay. The strategic significance of track position, the ever-present threat of safety cars and forecast thunderstorms all contribute to make this grand prix potentially more complicated that those that have preceded it.

► The Singapore Grand Prix has always ran close to the two-hour maximum race time. The shortest Singapore Grand Prix to date was the 2009 race, won by Lewis Hamilton for McLaren in a time of 1:56:06.337. Fernando Alonso’s victories in 2008 and 2010 were both completed in 1h57m and Sebastian Vettel’s triumph in 2011 pushed that out to 1h59m. The 2012 race was the slowest to date with Vettel’s winning time recorded as 2:00:26.144. Having gone beyond the two-hour cut-off point, the chequered flag was waved after 59 laps on this occasion instead of the scheduled 61. This was the first time since 2008 a grand prix had been completed by duration rather than distance.
► The above statistic paints a slightly false picture, as the Singapore Grand Prix has never been allowed to go the distance at racing speeds. The safety car has appeared every year to slow down proceedings. The proximity of barriers and the difficulty in accessing the circuit to clear wreckage make this circuit a high-probability candidate for a safety car deployment – something race strategists have to factor into their calculations. ► Despite being the grand prix that takes the longest to complete, Singapore has a higher average speed than Monaco. The disparity is explained by the Monaco Grand Prix running over a shorter distance than the rest of the calendar.
► In common with Monaco, Singapore is a maximum downforce circuit (and therefore sits at the opposite end of the scale to Monza). Other notable setup factors are necessitated by the uneven nature of the street surfaces and the need to attack kerbs through the tight right-angle street junctions. To address these issues, teams raise their ride-height and also set up with maximum suspension travel.
► The Formula One race is the second iteration of the Singapore Grand Prix. Its predecessor is a Formula Libre race which, having previously been called the Malaysian Grand Prix, became the Singapore Grand Prix after the city-state gained independence. The original incarnation of the Singapore Grand Prix ran from 1966-1973. ► Over the five-race history of the modern Singapore Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button are the only drivers to have completed every lap of every race.
► Despite the ever-present threat of rain in the tropics, and the frequent showers and thunderstorms that have preceded and followed the race, the Singapore Grand Prix has, to date, always been a dry race.
► Pirelli is bringing its Supersoft and Medium compounds to Singapore. This combination has been used in 2013 at the Australian and Canadian Grands Prix. As was the case in Montreal, Singapore is nominally going a step harder this year, Pirelli having allocated the Supersoft and Soft compounds in 2012 and 2011.

Weather Forecast:http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/1880252
Source: FIA

[GSC]

Kimis a very consistent driver, but he doesn't have the raw pace of Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton

[CaledonianCraig]

Kimis a very consistent driver, but he doesn't have the raw pace of Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton

He's certainly a step up from Webber. Heck even Kimi last year in an under-funded Lotus beat Webber in the title race despite being out of F1 for two years.

[GSC]

#1s get more points than #2s. He also beat Hamilton, Button and Massa.

He might nick the odd race from Vettel if things swung his way, but Vettels just faster all round.

[bogbrush]

Vettel beats Raikkonen????? Didn't know you could predict the future. That's the same Vettel who couldn't beat Di Resta in the same machinery, right?

As for the discussion, agree, Raikkonen @ RB would of been more exciting but only just more exciting that taking on Alonso & Ferrari. The main upside in Raikkonen moving to RB is that it would have probably ended the Vettel debate. It would have ultimately & definitely asked all the 'up in the air' questions & doubts about Vettel's true ability & achievements in the sport. RB's decision was of a team call, therefore Vettel can't be blamed for the decision. Seeing as it has not happened, unfortunately means more pointless arguments & opinions will continue to be thrown around, by the viewers, in regards to Vettel's apparent 'level of greatness'.

No, it's not the same driver. Vettel has advanced far beyond his 2010, very raw, standard.

[GSC]

Is Vettel today the same Vettel as 2006?

[CaledonianCraig]

All supposition though. Until Seb is pitted against those drivers in the same car a fair judgement is impossible.

[Guest]

Exactly. Ridiculous statement to just say he's going to beat Kimi because he's improved as a driver over the years. Kimi, fully motivated, given the opportunity to race in a competitive car at each weekend would bring even more out of Kimi. He's determined more than ever to win another WDC & he's ruthless. Kimi's is being held back by Lotus, I know that, you know that, Lotus knew it........that's why he's leaving. He's got unfinished business in this sport, otherwise why would he of come back. Financial gain is not the motivation.

[GSC]

Kimis consistent but he doesn't have the top raw pace. You can see it in comparison to Grosjean who has good raw pace but no consistency. It'd be closer than Webber but I'd happily bet good money Vettel beats him. This notion that Vettels achievements come with some kind of asterix until he takes on someone are pretty dumb. Smacks of desperation to discredit Vettel at this point and its more than a bit sad.

[bogbrush]

This guy is unstoppable. He'll win it next year too, regardless of engine changes. He gets better every year.

His only threat in this gang is Hamilton.

[CaledonianCraig]

Not at all GSC. Look at the facts - Red Bull were a middle of the road team until Adrian Newey came along in 2008. As it did at Williams and McLaren he took a couple of years to overhaul the designs in place and put his mark on the team and hey presto he designed a World title winning car. That has happened at three different teams now with Newey so that tells me that it is his designs more than anything bringing the success and is the reason a lot of fans doubt Vettel's standing as an all-time great. Vettel doesn't have that same history of success to yield as evidence. That is not to say he won't produce that evidence a few years down the line but until he does people will wonder.

[GSC]

Spoiler:

[CaledonianCraig]

Spoiler:

[Guest]

GSC - There is no asterix over his achievement from my perspective. He's won three WDC's on merit, it's not his fault he was driving the fastest car for the majority of that time & up against an inferior team-mate. It's in the record books, therefore it's been achieved. I just can't judge him true ability and where he stands in terms of the 'greats', until he takes on a fellow top driver within the sport, in at least equal equipment or he leaves RB & the Newey 'safety net', which he will do eventually. Taking on Kimi would of been the barometer we needed to understand how good he is, unfortunately it won't happen.

GSC makes good points but BB your just an ***** really. F1 next year will be a solely engine formula, therefore there is a high chance of the Renault engine being significantly inferior to a Mercedes. If that's the case, RB will be nowhere, regardless of Newey's genial aerodynamics because an inferior engine means less power & more importantly worse fuel economy. Throw in RB's unreliable KERS & RB do potentially have serious issues to address next year. I actually hope there isn't a huge gap in performance from the engine manufacturer's, otherwise we could have a really lop-sided season with some car's completely off the pace & one engine being a second or more quicker a lap in just power terms.

[GSC]

And that really applies to 2011 only.

[bogbrush]

Craig wheels out the 'all time great' strawman.

Again.

And again.

[bogbrush]

Tut tut John, control yourself. No need for abuse.

[CaledonianCraig]

Craig wheels out the 'all time great' strawman.

Again.

And again.

Sorry if the truth hurts BB. What a designer Adrian Newey is eh? On the verge of a tenth world title winning car design in the last 20 years. Genius.

[GSC]

Hes 26 years old. Who cares if he's not roundly considered an ATG yet.

[CaledonianCraig]

Hes 26 years old. Who cares if he's not roundly considered an ATG yet.

Tell BB that. He is the one seething because I don't put Seb in that bracket yet. This is all about opinion. Some people laud Sir Stirling Moss but he never won a world title. Button is a world champion but that came in a season where Brawn were untouchable (much like Red Bull are now). It is all about opinions. Each of us are entitled to them so I see no need for condemnations or hissy fits.

[bogbrush]

Craig wheels out the 'all time great' strawman.

Again.

And again.

Sorry if the truth hurts BB. What a designer Adrian Newey is eh? On the verge of a tenth world title winning car design in the last 20 years. Genius.

God, please, just please, read posts before you reply.

When I say you wheel out the all time great strawman it means that you keep saying you disagree with those saying he's an all time great...... except nobody is on here. Do you know what a strawman argument is? Here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I do worry about how you seem unable to comprehend what's written before you set off.

Hurts? Oh, I'm not hurting. Think you may be stinging a bit though, God knows why.

[CaledonianCraig]

Just let it drop eh? Besides you yourself agree you are not sure if he Is an all-time great so what is your problem? If you want to cream your pants about him go right ahead just don't go verbally attacking those who are not so overwhelmed with Seb OK.

[bogbrush]

Just let it drop eh? Besides you yourself agree you are not sure if he Is an all-time great so what is your problem? If you want to cream your pants about him go right ahead just don't go verbally attacking those who are not so overwhelmed with Seb OK.

You don't often see someone undermine themselves inside one sentence. Sorry mate, you're the one who took it nasty, too late to chase high ground.

[beninho]

Can we just scrap the ATG debates, its a nonsense as it cannot be compared. You cannot compare drivers of different eras. You cannot even compare drivers of the same era, due to completely different machinery. You would only be able to tell, if everyone drove the same car under the same circumstances. And this has never been the case in F1, and it should not be either.

The main issue seems to have been the forcing of Pirelli to change the design of their tyres back to the ones that pretty much guarenteed the title for Red Bull last year, and it has happened again this year. The cars that designed based on the tyres given initially have struggled since the change. Doesnt seem fair.

[Guest]

Can we just scrap the ATG debates

The main issue seems to have been the forcing of Pirelli to change the design of their tyres back to the ones that pretty much guarenteed the title for Red Bull last year, and it has happened again this year. The cars that designed based on the tyres given initially have struggled since the change. Doesnt seem fair.

Point 1 - Agree, it's getting embarrassing. Nobody is going to win the argument on either side. Let's wait until further down the line, when the Vettel & Newey partnership is broken up & Vettel begins a new chapter in his F1 career, whereby he can either showcase & enhance his reputation even further or have it fail & showcase that his previous form was entirely down to the machinery provided. End.

Point 2 - Totally agree. Fernando said it at the weekend. 'As soon as the tyres changed mid-season, we said 'bye-bye' to the championship'. Basically sums it up.

[dyrewolfe]

Heh. Loved reading the arguments about this.

I think thats the thing that is nagging at a lot of people.

If Vettel had won his titles, having had season long Prost/Senna type battles, he would undoubtedly be judged one of the all-time greats. However, since he's pretty much coasted to all of them and looks like doing so for a 4th time this season, people are always going to ask, "Yes, but how hard did he really have to try?"

Its a similar thing with Schumacher, who won most of his 7 titles with races to spare (and with the the odd bit of rule-breaking).

[beninho]

But the thing with Schumacher, is he left a world championship team, and went to Ferrari, who at the time where not that good. He helped turn them into something special, though it took 5 years for his first world champ with them. To make Ferrari great again, was a huge achievement.

[Guest]

But the thing with Schumacher, is he left a world championship team, and went to Ferrari, who at the time where not that good. He helped turn them into something special, though it took 5 years for his first world champ with them. To make Ferrari great again, was a huge achievement.  

Another key point in why people cannot classify Vettel as an ATG.

Vettel, for his own reputation & to gain more respect from the booing fans, actually needed RB to stand up & say, 'you know what, we're going to partner you with Kimi'. This would of gone some way to showing us how good Vettel actually is. But because F1 is about the 'team', they decided against it. If he'd beaten Kimi at RB, he could then say, 'Well I want to move to another team for a new challenge and build them up, just like Schumacher did at Ferrari & what Hamilton is trying to do with Mercedes'. That would immediately go a long way to silencing his critics, who say he hasn't got the bottle to leave the 'safety net' of RB behind. Vettel needs to make decisions in his career that are risky, are not the easy option & that say to the F1 world, 'Look, I'm this good, I'm going to showcase it & win at another team, without a Newey car'. If he did this, after winning four or five titles at RB & then went on to win another couple of titles at an inferior team, that's when I would stand up & say, 'Respect to Vettel,' & then I would classify him as an all-time great, even surpassing Schumacher. The fact RB have paired him with Ricciardo has not helped his 'legacy' in my opinion because nothing will get proven. Ricciardo is nothing spectacular, has achieved nothing, other than beat Vergne.....in qualifying. Vettel needs to make a big decision in the next two years, on his own, that could open up a pathway to leading him to changing his F1 status & perception. If he joined an inferior team & not just the next leading team after the Newey domination has ended, then that decision will dictate whether or not he can gain an all-time great status & appeasing the fans, his critics & doubters.

[CaledonianCraig]

There is a connection between Scumacher/Ferrari success and Vettel/Red Bull success. Both had cars designed by supremely talented men. Ferrari had Rory Byrne (seven world title winning cars designed with two teams) whilst Red Bull have Adrian Newey (ten world titles with three teams). By my estimation in the last 22 years the world's leading F1 car was designed by either Byrne or Newey 17 times - staggering.

[GSC]

But the thing with Schumacher, is he left a world championship team, and went to Ferrari, who at the time where not that good. He helped turn them into something special, though it took 5 years for his first world champ with them. To make Ferrari great again, was a huge achievement.  

Another key point in why people cannot classify Vettel as an ATG.

Vettel, for his own reputation & to gain more respect from the booing fans, actually needed RB to stand up & say, 'you know what, we're going to partner you with Kimi'. This would of gone some way to showing us how good Vettel actually is. But because F1 is about the 'team', they decided against it. If he'd beaten Kimi at RB, he could then say, 'Well I want to move to another team for a new challenge and build them up, just like Schumacher did at Ferrari & what Hamilton is trying to do with Mercedes'. That would immediately go a long way to silencing his critics, who say he hasn't got the bottle to leave the 'safety net' of RB behind. Vettel needs to make decisions in his career that are risky, are not the easy option & that say to the F1 world, 'Look, I'm this good, I'm going to showcase it & win at another team, without a Newey car'. If he did this, after winning four or five titles at RB & then went on to win another couple of titles at an inferior team, that's when I would stand up & say, 'Respect to Vettel,' & then I would classify him as an all-time great, even surpassing Schumacher. The fact RB have paired him with Ricciardo has not helped his 'legacy' in my opinion because nothing will get proven. Ricciardo is nothing spectacular, has achieved nothing, other than beat Vergne.....in qualifying. Vettel needs to make a big decision in the next two years, on his own, that could open up a pathway to leading him to changing his F1 status & perception. If he joined an inferior team & not just the next leading team after the Newey domination has ended, then that decision will dictate whether or not he can gain an all-time great status & appeasing the fans, his critics & doubters.

Love sacks, nobody good wanted him so he took the best paid option.

[GSC]

Bottom line drivers are in F1 to win races and Championships (along with $$$). RB give Vettel the best chance to win races so why move atm. Alonso moved to Ferrari for the same reason. He and Hamilton tried to sound out RB for the same reason. Kimis going to Ferrari, again for the same reason.

[bogbrush]

Could the person calling Vettel an all time great please stand up?

I don't think they come on this forum. The suggestion is a classic strawman argument; "prove" it wrong and suddenly you've undermined others who didn't even say it.

I'm in the 'he is brilliant and quite possibly will be an ATG' camp.


Schumacher is a complete ATG, no question. The only man I can imagine has ever been indispensable to Ferrari, at least in my lifetime.

[bogbrush]

But the thing with Schumacher, is he left a world championship team, and went to Ferrari, who at the time where not that good. He helped turn them into something special, though it took 5 years for his first world champ with them. To make Ferrari great again, was a huge achievement.  

Completely correct.

Schumacher played a huge part in the development of the car and of the team itself, as well as driving superbly.

[bogbrush]

Heh. Loved reading the arguments about this.

I think thats the thing that is nagging at a lot of people.

If Vettel had won his titles, having had season long Prost/Senna type battles, he would undoubtedly be judged one of the all-time greats. However, since he's pretty much coasted to all of them and looks like doing so for a 4th time this season, people are always going to ask, "Yes, but how hard did he really have to try?"

Its a similar thing with Schumacher, who won most of his 7 titles with races to spare (and with the the odd bit of rule-breaking).

Coasted? In 2010?

I must live in a parallel universe.

[GSC]

Similar to Schumacher, Vettels also played a big role in developing the RB car so it fits him like a glove and works to his driving style tbf.

Also yes, Vettel isnt an ATG yet (hes 26 for crying out loud), but hes going to be a 4 time WC (consecutively) at 26. Can't deny its not a possibility at this point.

[GSC]

Heh. Loved reading the arguments about this.

I think thats the thing that is nagging at a lot of people.

If Vettel had won his titles, having had season long Prost/Senna type battles, he would undoubtedly be judged one of the all-time greats. However, since he's pretty much coasted to all of them and looks like doing so for a 4th time this season, people are always going to ask, "Yes, but how hard did he really have to try?"

Its a similar thing with Schumacher, who won most of his 7 titles with races to spare (and with the the odd bit of rule-breaking).

Coasted? In 2010?

I must live in a parallel universe.

Valid point tbf. In 2010 he only led the standings at the very end. All season.
In 2012 he reeled in Alonsos big lead.

2011 granted, but his form in that season was immense.

[SteveG]

Vettels also played a big role in developing the RB car so it fits him like a glove and works to his driving style tbf.

Yes and its the complete opposite for Hamilton who was tossed the keys to whatever was in the garage and still he drives the ass off it sitting third in the championship. If he and Brawn can work together and get the Merc to fit HIM like a glove then it'll certainly be happy days for Hamilton fans.

[bogbrush]

I think that's a fair point. I keep waiting for it to 'ignite' for Hamilton, for him to get to drive the pants off his car for 4, 5, 6 races or more. It's been like a funny career, setting the bar so high early on, basically chasing Alonso out of McLaren but followed by lots of misfires - cars, mistakes, bad attitudes - amongst the good stuff.

I'd like him & Vettel to have comparable cars for next season. I think it'd be really tough.

[Guest]

Hamilton needs time, next year is the year, where Mercedes are actually expected to challenge & if they don't win, then its a failure. This year was just another gradual step in a long term plan, hence why they are `proud` of this years performance. One thing, clearly evident is Hamilton has struggled immensely with the brakes, an area which prior to this year, he was ahead of everyone else. He was also probably the best overtaker in F1, prior to DRS, therefore another area of his which has taken a hit. DRS just makes overtaking a formality, predictable & unskilled, therefore anyone can do it & move through the field.

Hamilton`s career is dwindling into a real anti-climax of expectation in regards to his undoubted talent. He does indeed need to win the title in 2014, probably more than most.

[SteveG]

Always got the feeling that the Mclaren became a 'neutral' car because of Button and Hamiltons opposing styles and the reason why there always seemed to be setup issues for at least one side of the garage. This is currently happening at Merc on Hamiltons side, but for obvious reasons. Now I don't know how pushy Hamilton is behind the scenes but he simply HAS to stamp his DNA on next years car in order to iron out those erratic swings of performance between Friday and Sunday.

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