Cardiff Blues v Edinburgh Rugby, 6 October

Cardiff Blues v Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sunday 6 October 2013, KO 14:05
The Arms Park, Cardiff
 
Referee: George Clancy (IRFU, 56th competition game)  
Assistant Referees: Neil Hennessy, Neil Perkins (both WRU
Citing Commissioner: Denis Jones (WRU)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (WRU)
 
LIVE on BBC Wales/BBC ALBA
 
A. Teams:

I. Cardiff Blues

 
15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Owen Williams
12 Cory Allen
11 Harry Robinson
10 Rhys Patchell
9 Lloyd Williams

8 Andries Pretorius
7 Sam Warburton
6 Josh Navidi
5 Filo Paulo
4 Bradley Davies
3 Taufa’ao Filise
2 Matthew Rees (c)
1 Gethin Jenkins

16 Kristian Dacey
17 Scott Andrews
18 Sam Hobbs
19 Lou Reed
20 Robin Copeland
21 Lewis Jones
22 Gareth Davies
23 Dafydd Hewitt
 
II. Edinburgh Rugby

 
15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Joaquin Dominguez
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tim Visser
10 Harry Leonard
9 Greig Laidlaw (c)

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Sean Cox
5 Izak van der Westhuizen
6 Dimitri Basilaia
7 Tomas Leonardi
8 David Denton

16 James Hilterbrand
17 Wicus Blaauw
18 Geoff Cross
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Cornell Du Preez
21 Sean Kennedy
22 Matt Scott
23 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne

B. Form - head to head:
 
25 Played  
14 Wins 11
11 Losses 14
0 Draws 0
61 Tries 40
43 Conversions 30
57 Penalties 44
2 Drop Goals 8
568 Points 416
24 Avg. Age 25
 
C. Form - last season:
 
Friday 7 September 2012, 19:05: Cardiff Arms Park
Cardiff Blues 19 - 21 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Friday 15 February, 19:30: Murrayfield
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 17 Cardiff Blues

I'd be waiting for Connery's lawyers to give you a ring. Not sure Bond would want to be associated with Edinburgh rugby!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd be waiting for Connery's lawyers to give you a ring. Not sure Bond would want to be associated with Edinburgh rugby!

I'd presumably have to start a thread about living on a golf course in Marbella for him to be happy with the accuracy of the association.

Here's my prediction ..... it won't be a classic. 2 teams who are just downright poor at the moment. It could be a case of which side is the least incompetent that will win.

doctornickolas wrote:Here's my prediction ..... it won't be a classic. 2 teams who are just downright poor at the moment. It could be a case of which side is the least incompetent that will win.

 
Damn. Edinburgh was hoping that it wouldn't come to that.

Well with Halfpenny, Cuthbert and Robinson in the back three, our kick and (no) chase tactic will need to be given a serious re-think for this one, or at least considerably improved. I also think that whichever wing Cuthbert plays, Lee Jones should not.

HUGE game for both so early in the season, both have been on poor form.

You would say the Blues at home should come out the best of bad bunch etc but I guess most thought they would beat Zebre at home.

They fronted up in Leinster for most of game and need to come out of blocks like that for this game as well.

Given the more conservative direction of travel Edinburgh are going in, this one could be pretty turgid. I'm almost glad it's an away game so that I'm not drawn in to going to see it!

fEs,

Agree it does have the tone of both teams afraid to lose etc though I think fortune could favour the brave.

If one team had guts to go for it from the other I think the lack of confidence in th other team could be their un-doing

I don't think it's so much a lack of ambition from the Edinburgh players. Both Kennedy and Hidalgo-Clyne are attacking tempo scrum halves by nature, and would love to play a tap and go style game. I think the orders from above however are to kick and go for territory or force mistakes, rather than to create. We did it badly against the Scarlets and continuously lost ground on that basis. With your back three I just don't see the benefit in handing them counter-attacking ball.

I agree, I think fortune will favour the brave on this one. The question is how brave will the Edinburgh players be to attack and run the ball, particularly if it goes against the gameplan.

If Edinburgh win this, it will be through the pack. Blues front row is unrecognisably better than last year but Edinburgh should have parity. If Edinburgh can keep the penalty count down, they should be in contention throughout. Kicking ball straight down the the throat of Cuthbert is ludicrous - surely they won't do that?

The thing that the two teams have in common (as shown in their last two respective matches) is that they can completely lose focus for spells late in the game. Not easy to predict - I suspect the difference will be less than a score with the goalkicking of Saint Leigh of Lilliput making all the difference.

George Carlin wrote:Kicking ball straight down the the throat of Cuthbert is ludicrous - surely they won't do that?

What's the risk when you have Lee Jones to chop him down, allied to the searing pace of Ben Atiga as cover....

We’re going to kick the ball all day long and get an absolute horsing.

I know this is very negative, but I think it’s pretty obvious that’s going to happen.  Unless Blues have an absolute ‘mare, then we’re going to be in for a very long afternoon.

That said, I might just be being overly pessimistic because I’ve had a poop day at work and the rest of the week isn’t shaping up much better.

I don't think we'll get a "horsing". Our pack is pretty decent and will be competitive, and if Visser and Walker return we'll have the firepower to cause them some problems.

I would be too down about it all. This is a new regime and we have a bunch of promising new players signed up, plus Kennedy, Hidalgo-Clyne and Leonard will keep improving the more action they get.

We need to give Solomons time, although I see the usual cretins on Facebook have given up already despite calling for Edinburgh to win the league a month ago.

You’re probably right, I’m just concerned that no matter how well our pack do, if we ping the ball back to Cardiff’s back 3 we could be in trouble.

Also as I said, terrible day at work, and just read the motivational piece in the Scotsman about how the Edinburgh side is packed full of NSQ journeymen at a time when we could be considerably worse off financially (paraphrasing).  All in all, its fair got me down.

Tomorrow I might be more optimistic about the game.

I don't think we're "packed full of NSQ journeymen".

In my view our 1st XV looks like this:

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.VDW 6.Du Preez 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Laidlaw 10.Leonard 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Walker 15.Tonks

The 1st XV includes 3 NSQ players, all of whom can qualify ultimately to play for Scotland and are of appropriate age currently to do so. I also wouldn't describe any of them as journeymen.

Our 2nd XV looks like this:

1.Blauuw 2.Lawrie 3.Cross 4.Atkins 5.Cox 6.Basilia 7.Grant 8.Coman 9.Kennedy 10.Francis 11.Jones 12.Atiga 13.Fife 14.Cuthbert 15.Brown

Sure, there are a couple of "journeymen" in the 2nd XV and only 8 from 15 are scots qualified, but there are some decent NSQ players there: Blauuw and Basilia are useful, and we've yet to see Coman and Atkins.

The key requirement for us Edinburgh fans at the moment is patience. This is a new coaching set-up with strong credentials and they deserve a chance to turn things around.

I'm not saying we are, it's just what the Scotsmen's story is about.

Basically that we can put out an entire pack who are nsq, and the likes of du Preez are only on two year deals. Anyway it wasn't a cheery article. On their website of you're interested.

I think most of Bradley's NSQ signings will be on their way at the end of the season, we've already dumped Penn (who, never played a game), Rees, Yapp and Visser junior. I think you can add Atiga (why), Basil, PJP, Francis and probably a few others to that list.

After that we're not overly loaded with NSQ.

Just seen that PJP will be out for 6 months.
 
I suspect that Atiga, Brown, Cuthbert, Jones, Francis, Tait, the Toolis Bros (who have precisely no family game time between them to date?), Lutui, PJP, Ford and possibly even Gilchrist are possibly the kind of player that will be politely asked to clear their lockers next year. There really are a staggering number of young and unproven players at Edinburgh. I had remind myself that the likes of McInally and McAlpine are still there.
 
The real struggle will be holding onto Denton, Visser, Scott, Laidlaw and Rennie if they feel that things won't improve.
 
Blues are on a real journey - I'd be very sorry for them if this wrangling over the European tournament genuinely cost them the chance to re-sign Cuthbert, Warbs, Rees, 1/2p et al simply because the club doesn't know what it is able to commit to financially.

Given this is the last game before the HK, we really need to see some drastic improvements from Edinburgh.

Luckily I have had the fortune to be unable to attend Edinburgh's first 2 home games, unfortunately I have watched both away games so far, and they were awful.

Not looking forward to this one - the Blues will be delighted to be playing us, what a chance to find some form.

RDW - it's also not a bad game for us either. It's away from home which (for us) means any point is a bonus, and Cardiff are low on confidence. If Zebre can beat them so can we.

We also play both the Italian teams at home in quick succession after the HC games, meaning our next three domestic fixtures are Cardiff (a), Treviso (h) and Zebre (h). We then play Connacht at Murrayfield two games later.

Time to start accumulating some points - it's basically now or never for this season.

My starting XV for Cardiff:

1.Blaauw 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Cox 5.VDW 6.Basilia 7.Grant 8.Denton 9.Hidalgo-Clyne 10.Leonard 11.Visser 12.Atiga 13.NDL 14.Walker 15.Tonks

16.Dickinson 17.Lawrie 18.Cross 19.Atkins 20.Watson 21.Kennedy 22.Fife 23.Cuthbert

Assuming we get no points from Munster at Murrayfield, I'd rest some key players against Pergignan in France so that we can play full strength against Treviso and Zebre in the Rabo. It may sound like an odd tactic but we should start targeting winnable games.

Any ideas when Matt Scott returns?

I think it is fair to say there’s not a chance in hell we will be ‘resting’ any players in the HK given the current political situation!

Last thing I heard Matt Scott and Laidlaw were struggling to be fit for the first HK game. If they aren’t fit this weekend they should not start against Munster – even if it means playing Atiga.

Ross Rennie was mid-late October.

Also I'd play Fife over Walker - I appreciate it was his first game but Walker looked completely off pace against the O's.

Wrong thread. Sorry. Half asleep today!

It's a fair point re: the political situation, but we should understand that what we do will have zero impact on that whole debacle, and we ought to be rotating our squad in order to achieve the most wins we can this season.

I missed the O's game, so no issues switching Walker out of the side. In fact Cuthbert was actually ok against the Scarlets so I'd also have no issues with him on the right wing either.

If a player isn't fit to face Cardiff that player shouldn't play Munster in the HC. We've made this mistake in the past too many times. If Scott and Laidlaw are to play Munster, they need to be starting against Cardiff, otherwise Atiga and Hidalgo-Clyne/Kennedy should play both games to give themselves the best possible chance.

If we lose to Munster without securing a point, then perhaps Laidlaw and Scott can return to play Perpignan (which shouldn't be perceived as playing an understrength side).

Just watched the highlights from last weekend's games, a few points:

Leinster destroyed the Blues up front at the set piece - let's hope our first choice front row is picked to try and target them there.

The 3 tries we conceeded were truly awful. How did we always end up men down in defence?

2 tries came directly from poor kicks that had to go into touch. Inexperienced half backs - that's what you get.

Lee Jones  

George Carlin wrote:Just seen that PJP will be out for 6 months.
 
I suspect that Atiga, Brown, Cuthbert, Jones, Francis, Tait, the Toolis Bros (who have precisely no family game time between them to date?), Lutui, PJP, Ford and possibly even Gilchrist are possibly the kind of player that will be politely asked to clear their lockers next year. There really are a staggering number of young and unproven players at Edinburgh. I had remind myself that the likes of McInally and McAlpine are still there.
 
The real struggle will be holding onto Denton, Visser, Scott, Laidlaw and Rennie if they feel that things won't improve.
 
Blues are on a real journey - I'd be very sorry for them if this wrangling over the European tournament genuinely cost them the chance to re-sign Cuthbert, Warbs, Rees, 1/2p et al simply because the club doesn't know what it is able to commit to financially.

GC, I agree with some, but not all of that. The Toolis brothers for instance are 21 year old SQ and on EDP contracts, I wouldn't be expecting them to walk into the team this season. Brown has been injured this season and is imo a better player than Cuthbert, so I don't think we'll see him going.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The 3 tries we conceeded were truly awful.  How did we always end up men down in defence?
2 tries came directly from poor kicks that had to go into touch.  Inexperienced half backs - that's what you get.

Lee Jones  

This bothers me as well, particularly when it's Lee Jones facing down the barrell of a 4 on 1 overlap - frankly I don't often back him one on one.

The kicking game was probably the key thing (other than the lapses in concentration). We were badly beaten in that regard whereas Liam Williams and Priestland were both excellent. Even Tonks was outgunned. Annoyingly rather than changing tactics we persisted and more often than not ended up conceding ground. Leonard's kicking distance isn't bad, but he needs to be more conservative and ensure he makes touch first and foremost (other than the 22 restart where he wellied the ball out on the full).

It's all a learning curve for him though, and I'd far rather we invested our time in him than in a NSQ fly half like Francis, who isn't much better anyway.

justified sinner wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Just seen that PJP will be out for 6 months.
 
I suspect that Atiga, Brown, Cuthbert, Jones, Francis, Tait, the Toolis Bros (who have precisely no family game time between them to date?), Lutui, PJP, Ford and possibly even Gilchrist are possibly the kind of player that will be politely asked to clear their lockers next year. There really are a staggering number of young and unproven players at Edinburgh. I had remind myself that the likes of McInally and McAlpine are still there.
 
The real struggle will be holding onto Denton, Visser, Scott, Laidlaw and Rennie if they feel that things won't improve.
 
Blues are on a real journey - I'd be very sorry for them if this wrangling over the European tournament genuinely cost them the chance to re-sign Cuthbert, Warbs, Rees, 1/2p et al simply because the club doesn't know what it is able to commit to financially.

GC, I agree with some, but not all of that. The Toolis brothers for instance are 21 year old SQ and on EDP contracts, I wouldn't be expecting them to walk into the team this season. Brown has been injured this season and is imo a better player than Cuthbert, so I don't think we'll see him going.

Didn't realise the Toolis'''''''' were EDPs. Whom would you jettison from the squad, Justified? Be honest.

My view would be to ditch Latui, Parker, Cox, Leck, Francis, Atiga and Jones.

I'd get Farndale into the squad and focus my efforts on getting a new 10 and 12; Heathcote and Taylor would do nicely.

funnyExiledScot wrote:My view would be to ditch Latui, Parker, Cox, Leck, Francis, Atiga and Jones.

I'd get Farndale into the squad and focus my efforts on getting a new 10 and 12; Heathcote and Taylor would do nicely.

Isn't Lutui only on year 1 of a multi-year contract? Can Embra afford to buy players out of their contracts?

Why would you ditch Gilchrist? Seem awful harsh on a 23 year old lock who's playing in a dreadful team and was probably one of Edinburgh's better players last year.

Again with Tom Brown?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:My view would be to ditch Latui, Parker, Cox, Leck, Francis, Atiga and Jones.

I'd get Farndale into the squad and focus my efforts on getting a new 10 and 12; Heathcote and Taylor would do nicely.

Isn't Lutui only on year 1 of a multi-year contract?  Can Embra afford to buy players out of their contracts?

They should just breach the contract and not pay him. I'll represent them negligently and my firms insurance can pick up the tab.

 

Hopefully at 63 years old Lutui realises he’s too old to do another year of pro rugby.

reallybored wrote:Why would you ditch Gilchrist? Seem awful harsh on a 23 year old lock who's playing in a dreadful team and was probably one of Edinburgh's better players last year.

Again with Tom Brown?

Agreed on Gilchrist. I've been hugely frustrated with his lack of progress over the last year, but he's a good athlete and young. Plenty time for him to develop, and at only 23 he's already got lots of good experience. We should definitely hang onto Glichrist.

Brown for me will never be a Scotland player, but he's a useful player to have on the books. Good cover at 15, plus he can play wing in emergencies as well. Not lightening quick, but a good footballer and he reads the game well.

We lost to Zebre at home, why not Edinburgh? Although, I do appreciate you guys' effort to make us feel a little better about the game

Sorry to say this MFL amigos, but it is such a mismatch in the backs that if the Blues get parity up front you are on a hiding.
Cuthbert must fall asleep smiling, wondering Jones, Cuthbert Walker...? Then waken up with sticky sheets and a slightly guilty feeling.

I wonder if Cardiff would mind if we just swapped Cuthberts......

I think Edinburgh bought the wrong Cuthbert in confusion.

Is this a "must win" game for both sides already?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

reallybored wrote:Why would you ditch Gilchrist? Seem awful harsh on a 23 year old lock who's playing in a dreadful team and was probably one of Edinburgh's better players last year.

Again with Tom Brown?

Brown for me will never be a Scotland player

He's got 1 cap already though.

TJ, going by performances so far already, I'd say its not far off....

GLove39 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

reallybored wrote:Why would you ditch Gilchrist? Seem awful harsh on a 23 year old lock who's playing in a dreadful team and was probably one of Edinburgh's better players last year.

Again with Tom Brown?

Brown for me will never be a Scotland player

He's got 1 cap already though.

Fair point

 

....well I don't think he'll win another one......

Didn't his one cap come in an away victory over Australia? That's a pretty good record, maybe he should be called up more often!

It was the one in Aus that was completely pishin doon, and he came on as a sub and did 1 tackle and barely touched the ball the weather was so bad!

RDW_Scotland wrote:It was the one in Aus that was completely pishin doon, and he came on as a sub and did 1 tackle and barely touched the ball the weather was so bad!

Aye but be honest you would settle for that. I know I would. ( and most of the MFL can only dream of it at present)

funnyExiledScot wrote:

reallybored wrote:Why would you ditch Gilchrist? Seem awful harsh on a 23 year old lock who's playing in a dreadful team and was probably one of Edinburgh's better players last year.

Again with Tom Brown?

Agreed on Gilchrist. I've been hugely frustrated with his lack of progress over the last year, but he's a good athlete and young. Plenty time for him to develop, and at only 23 he's already got lots of good experience. We should definitely hang onto Glichrist.

Brown for me will never be a Scotland player, but he's a useful player to have on the books. Good cover at 15, plus he can play wing in emergencies as well. Not lightening quick, but a good footballer and he reads the game well.

Don't mean to hijack a bi-partisan thread to focus on Edinburgh only - I guess it depends what you want in a squad. There should be one experienced international (SQ or not, it doesn't matter, as long as they are international quality) and one young(ish) SQ learning as much as they can vying for each shirt. How many 'decent enough' squad players can any team that has serious designs on improving look to support?

I would be happy with Gilchrist to be one of our SQ locks - he's shown a huge amount of promise - he just needs to step up to show the kind of impact that Jonny Gray is having now with Glasgow.

Jonny Gray is a good example, because I'd argue that when Gilchrist first broke through he did have that sort of impact. He was excellent in his debut season. It was only last season that he had a dip in form and I'd argue that he's been no more than average this season (although he has still started each game).

Gray has burst onto the scene, but he'll have some tough times as well. When players have talent, as both Gilchrist and Gray certainly do, we certainly don't have the luxury of resources to just discard them after a poor season. I've been a big critic of Gilchrist, but only because I think he has the potential to be a special player and he hasn't quite delivered on that promise.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Jonny Gray is a good example, because I'd argue that when Gilchrist first broke through he did have that sort of impact. He was excellent in his debut season. It was only last season that he had a dip in form and I'd argue that he's been no more than average this season (although he has still started each game).

Gray has burst onto the scene, but he'll have some tough times as well. When players have talent, as both Gilchrist and Gray certainly do, we certainly don't have the luxury of resources to just discard them after a poor season. I've been a big critic of Gilchrist, but only because I think he has the potential to be a special player and he hasn't quite delivered on that promise.

The "tricky" second album!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Jonny Gray is a good example, because I'd argue that when Gilchrist first broke through he did have that sort of impact. He was excellent in his debut season. It was only last season that he had a dip in form and I'd argue that he's been no more than average this season (although he has still started each game).

Gray has burst onto the scene, but he'll have some tough times as well. When players have talent, as both Gilchrist and Gray certainly do, we certainly don't have the luxury of resources to just discard them after a poor season. I've been a big critic of Gilchrist, but only because I think he has the potential to be a special player and he hasn't quite delivered on that promise.

I'll email Solomons now and tell him that you've turned me right around on that one.

Excellent. I'm pleased you're learning. There's no charge.