End in sight to Euro Mess?

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

because its so much more entertaining here trev. shining whit like yours deserve to be shared and appreciated.  

Quins - I far prefer the Rabo to the AP simply for the quality of rugby - although the AP seems to have got better the last couple of years.

do you really think the super 15 is rubbish because of no relegation?

TJ wrote:Quins - I far prefer the Rabo to the AP simply for the quality of rugby - although the AP seems to have got better the last couple of years.  

do you really think the super 15 is rubbish because of no relegation?

obviously i dont think the super 15 is rubbish. they are the club sides representing the players (who have to play domestically in NZ and SA - not sure about Aus) of the nations ranked 1,2 and 4. And isnt super15 their only club competition? ie they arent saving themselves for anything else mentally or physically?

not sure rabo12 and super15 are particularly good comparisons - apart from both having no relegation as you say.

re relegation, i'm happy for rabo12 that they do not have relegation, thats up to them, but they must at least have real competition for HC places in my view. lack of relegation still gives rabo a relative advantage in the "lack of fear" stakes which i think everyone is happy to concede.

This is what I don't get. I watch less AP than Pro12 admittedly but when I do watch English rugby there's absolutely no step up in intensity or quality from the Pro12 at all. Same with Top14.

The Pro12 has come on a lot, especially in recent seasons, and the standard of competition is getting higher every year. You expect that because there is only country-based qualifying for the HEC and no relegation that it would be less competitive- but you're drawing that conclusion from your own prejudices not from the league itself. The actual truth is teams desperately want to win every week. They don't want to win any less because they aren't facing relegation- they are massively competitive professional sportsman. Many are pushing for a place in their respective national teams. You see that pride and drive come through, there are very few games that feel like dead rubbers.

If the Pro12 has a fatal flaw that limits its competitiveness, its the number of internationals in squads- even the likes of Zebre and Edinburgh have a load of international players in their squad who are missing all through the test windows. That means you get second teams put out at those times which is bad for the league.

It's very difficult for the league itself to do much about that, it's more of a calendar issue, but still- it does take the edge off it when lots of players are missing. The Pro12 has a higher % of internationals than the other two leagues and that's just the price we pay.

Trevor - please go away with your constant niggling comments. No one is interested in your childish trolls.

Stick with the S15. Far superior.

Another proposal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10381474/English-and-French-tempt-Celts-and-Italians-to-European-deal-with-play-offs-offer.html

we dont seem to giving them that 8 any time soon!!

that's for sure!

but at least the negotiations are happening.

I'd look for top 8 qualifying from PRO12 and no automatic country places instead of play-off places if I was in the SRU, WRU and FIR unions.

I'd also seek to make the Challenge Cup more worthwhile with more entrants from PRO12 and financially make it worthwhile to get into the knockout stage and win the bloody thing. Getting into the knockout stages of the Challenge Cup should have a greater team bonus than playing in the pool stages in the H Cup. And finalists in the Challenge Cup should earn more than quarter finalists in the H Cup. If teams need to be incentivised and be more eager to play in a second tier comp, then make the prize money bigger too.

Gatland wades in http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24568425

"I don't see an Anglo-French competition being successful or lasting that long," Gatland told BBC Jersey.

"I think all parties want full representation from all the countries."

"There needs to be some sort of protection for a Scottish or Italian team potentially," he added. "Without their involvement we could see an impact going into the Six Nations."

TJ wrote:Gatland wades in http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24568425

"I don't see an Anglo-French competition being successful or lasting that long," Gatland told BBC Jersey.

"I think all parties want full representation from all the countries."

"There needs to be some sort of protection for a Scottish or Italian team potentially," he added. "Without their involvement we could see an impact going into the Six Nations."

Hopefully the Franglo's listen to this great and very knowledgable man.

He certainly can see the point of view of the non franglos. I can't stand Gatland but he is good at seeing thru the cowpat

Who is employed by WRU.

And? Its just interesting that a fairly well respected man has publicly stated his position.

quinsforever wrote:Who is employed by WRU.

Very true. It would be foolish for Gatland to criticise his employers.

If he did, he'd do it constructively as he has done in the past. Don't see how his employers can hold back his view on the european dispute though?

beshocked wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Who is employed by WRU.

Very true. It would be foolish for Gatland to criticise his employers.

Would they replace him swiftly if he did? Given his record with Wales, that might be a tad..foolish.

what the news dudes?
Any end in sight?

The beginning of the endgame has been seen. Rabble unions solidarity has forced the dastardly PRL to actually negotiate as their gun to head tactics have failed. They have moved half an inch. Only another half mile to go.

In all seriousness I see some movement happening and maybe that means a compromise is possible. I hope so

The rats are deserting the sinking ship: http://www.thescore.ie/toulon-heineken-cup-1134478-Oct2013/

toulon love that tourny right!!


turn coats!

Its been obvious from the beginning that the french are not united behind the PRL proposals and that a compromise would be possible with them. I have been frequnently mocked for saying this but its been obvious from comments from a number of french clubs. This is a part of why the PRL are now having to look to negotiate. As I have said often they are isolated. The french want change - but not at any cost.

"I have been frequently mocked for saying this"

Well TJ in a way you are right. There are all 3 facts of life. Death, taxes and the french never being united on anything!

 

Bizarrely, the reaction of Boudjellal demonstrates exactly why Unions handing over control to club owners is bad for any competition, and rugby union in general.
He is reacting to a proposed foreign player cap instigated by LNR! Just like the real issue that PRL/LNR have with the HEC, again this is an issue of control. The club owners are using the competitions as a means of leverage to get their own way. No respect for the competition, and no concern as to the damaged caused to NH rugby.
In any new club run competition, how long before the cracks appear, and the competition disintegrates at the hands of self-destructive ambition?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The rats are deserting the sinking ship: http://www.thescore.ie/toulon-heineken-cup-1134478-Oct2013/

JIFF nobble the hopes of JEFF?

Who is writing this stuff?!!!  It's becoming an epic of Biblical proportions.  Who'll direct the Trilogy?

It's an interesting turn of events but what does it mean,can Toulon actually choose to stay in the HC if the LNR set up a rival competition.Surely if the LNR can impose sanctions on clubs who don't conform to the JIFF rules then they can also impose sanctions on a club that doesn't play in their designates European comp.I won't be taking anything the French say as gospel since they've put out several conflicting statements so far.

It does show that maybe the French clubs aren't as strongly behind the Champions Cup (what a crap name,they couldn't rip off the Champions League name any more blatantly) as the PRL and LNR spokesmen suggest.

its a lot better than the rugby championship!

I think its time all league/cup names etc actually describes what is on the tin.

Suggestions

Rabbo = Bitter celt league
AP = The Home of Rugby Union League
LNR = The trying to be a football league league

mystiroakey wrote:its a lot better than the rugby championship!

I think its time all league/cup names etc actually describes what is on the tin.

Suggestions

Rabbo = Bitter celt league
AP = The Home of Rugby Union League
LNR = The trying to be a football league league

A fly in your soup?  

no my soup is lovely and clean

mystiroakey wrote:no my soup is lovely and clean

Only if it's fly soup  

"However, Mourad Boudjellal, the president of Toulon, is angered by what he calls “abject, reactionary and racist” actions on the part of the LNR and now says his club will not support the governing body’s plans to form the Rugby Champions Cup next season."

Don't you just love it?

I don't think that he's a happy bunny. Maybe the HEC can survive with Toulon v Celtalians.

Only joking.
I think most of us would like to see a few wings clipped before we go fully football.

Which also means ensuring that any TV bonanza goes to club/dist/reg/prov sustainability and not players' pockets.

mystiroakey wrote:

 

TJ wrote:Gatland wades in http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24568425

"There needs to be some sort of protection for a Scottish or Italian team potentially," he added. "Without their involvement we could see an impact going into the Six Nations."

He seems a bit out of the loop, that principle was agreed to by the Franglos after the secret talks back in May.

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The rats are deserting the sinking ship: http://www.thescore.ie/toulon-heineken-cup-1134478-Oct2013/

JIFF nobble the hopes of JEFF?

Who is writing this stuff?!!!  It's becoming an epic of Biblical proportions.  Who'll direct the Trilogy?

comedy.

but i take away 3 things from this back to my dastardly corner:

i) boudjellal really hates the french establishment, as embodied in the FFR. his statement (bit melodramatic) makes that abundantly clear - he can't countenance the LNR doing a deal with FFR on player quotas.

ii) LNR are doing a deal with FFR on player quotas...therefore that is obviously one of the prices LNR have decided they need to pay...in order to get FFR's support for something....maybe their vision of euro club comp? (if FFR were still adamant about ERC and HC, would boudjellal throw his toys out of the pram in support of FFR? i think not.)

iii) LNR members knew this was going to really urine off Boudjellal, and i have a funny feeling that is quite alright with them. too many of them have been tarred with the same brush every time Boudjellal opens his trap, so putting a bit of distance between the majority of LNR and Boudjellal would have been no accident.

this saga makes the american debt crisis seem trivial. Guess there will be a point when they are forced to get an agreement. Anyone know when it must be resolved by before clubs would need to consider cutting wages/players? Please dont say thiscould run on till next summer  

Wouldn't be too interested in Toulon helping keep the dying ERC competitions alive.

Whats better from an Irish/Celtic point of view-

a) Toulon help the Heineken Cup survive but continue their wild spending unchecked
b) ERC competitions are dropped, new 20 team competitions start including Celtic sides, the LNR imposes strict financial penalties on teams who rely exclusively on expensive imports.

For me b) may see the status quo change in a way which is not necessarily in our favour, but it will still allow the Irish provinces to be major powers in Europe on and off the field with the right management in both areas.

But without the culture of charismatic super-rich chairmen buying up talent from elsewhere changing in France we may not be able to keep our best players in Ireland. The likes of Boudjellal and their millions are a bigger threat to us than reform of European competitions.

He can sling his hook in conclusion. Most other sides in the competition have some kind of identity with many homegrown players. His side of imported superstars shouldn't be allowed to become the new normal.

Also this reform by the LNR has been coming for a while. LNR are like the PRL, an umbrella organisation representing many professional clubs. I'm sure not all of them are happy to see teams buying their way to the top of the pile.

And the reforms are hardly too stringent. Just 55% of players need to be French-trained- not eligible, just French trained! Imported teenage Tongans/Fijians who are in French academies count whether they choose to declare for France or not.

Thats the cynical part of course- the FFR didn't say French, they said French trained, so when a player has completed his three year Academy course he's qualified for France. They're letting the clubs scout players who will qualify on residency for them.

Notch wrote:Wouldn't be too interested in Toulon helping keep the dying ERC competitions alive.

Whats better from an Irish/Celtic point of view-

a) Toulon help the Heineken Cup survive but continue their wild spending unchecked
b) ERC competitions are dropped, new 20 team competitions start including Celtic sides, the LNR imposes strict financial penalties on teams who rely exclusively on expensive imports.

For me b) may see the status quo change in a way which is not necessarily in our favour, but it will still allow the Irish provinces to be major powers in Europe on and off the field with the right management in both areas.

But without the culture of charismatic super-rich chairmen buying up talent from elsewhere changing in France we may not be able to keep our best players in Ireland. The likes of Boudjellal and their millions are a bigger threat to us than reform of European competitions.

He can sling his hook in conclusion. Most other sides in the competition have some kind of identity with many homegrown players. His side of imported superstars shouldn't be allowed to become the new normal.

don't think i've said this before, but i completely agree with everything you have said Notch  

in order for prl and lnr as leagues to make as much money as possible in aggregate, salary caps and domestic player quotas (promotes national team success and fan support for domestic stars) are essential. a 1-sided league competition will lose commercial interest and harm the financial interest of the majority of less wealthy clubs.

boudjellal can go swivel. 

Yeah its spot on- This toulan thing seems like they are giving in one hand but taking in another!!

Notch wrote:Also this reform by the LNR has been coming for a while. LNR are like the PRL, an umbrella organisation representing many professional clubs. I'm sure not all of them are happy to see teams buying their way to the top of the pile.

And the reforms are hardly too stringent. Just 55% of players need to be French-trained- not eligible, just French trained! Imported teenage Tongans/Fijians who are in French academies count whether they choose to declare for France or not.

Thats the cynical part of course- the FFR didn't say French, they said French trained, so when a player has completed his three year Academy course he's qualified for France. They're letting the clubs scout players who will qualify on residency for them.

Spot on I reckon Notch.

Toulon is interesting. Boudjellal seems very ego-driven as a chairman. Like a lot of the French clubs the thinking is very short-term- they are just bringing in big-name players but not improving the actual structures that sustain success like a good Academy, like grassroots development- all the things that produce good quality homegrown players. Instead that is withering on the vine hence the FFR/LNR intervention. When the paycheques dry up so will the success, when they could be using the money to build something sustainable and lasting.

Notch wrote:Wouldn't be too interested in Toulon helping keep the dying ERC competitions alive.

Whats better from an Irish/Celtic point of view-

a) Toulon help the Heineken Cup survive but continue their wild spending unchecked
b) ERC competitions are dropped, new 20 team competitions start including Celtic sides, the LNR imposes strict financial penalties on teams who rely exclusively on expensive imports.

For me b) may see the status quo change in a way which is not necessarily in our favour, but it will still allow the Irish provinces to be major powers in Europe on and off the field with the right management in both areas.

But without the culture of charismatic super-rich chairmen buying up talent from elsewhere changing in France we may not be able to keep our best players in Ireland. The likes of Boudjellal and their millions are a bigger threat to us than reform of European competitions.

He can sling his hook in conclusion. Most other sides in the competition have some kind of identity with many homegrown players. His side of imported superstars shouldn't be allowed to become the new normal.

Why is choice restricted to either (a) or (b)? What about (a), but with the Unions imposing those same penalties on clubs breaking whatever foreign player cap?