End in sight to Euro Mess?

First topic message reminder :

Reports in the Times today that agreement may be close for pan-European competitions for the next 8 seasons including Pro12/AP/T14 teams. (cannot link due to paywall).

It seems that in the last few weeks Ian Ritchie has been hosting a series of private meetings with all relevant parties to try and thrash out a deal. Interestingly PRLs representative in these meetings has been Bruce Craig - Mark McCafferty being sidelined?
Any way it seems that compromises have been reached on qualification methods, division of finances and management of the new competition. It would seem ERC are out, but the clubs will only have a say in the new competition not the full control they demanded. It even suggests we may see BT and SKY operate as joint broadcasters!!

Supposedly this new competition is almost agreed by all the relevant stakeholders (primarily the 6 Unions but also PRL/LNR). It may all be journalistic bluster - but I see no reason why a NewsCorp paper should be peddling this line if they did not believe it. After all until very recently their stories have always been heaping the utmost scorn on PRL/RFU.


So if a deal is struck that gives us a true set of pan-European competitions I can only be really pleased. I do hope that the story is true about the private meetings - as there has been far too much public posturing from people that only serves to antagonise. A public argument is much harder to heal than a private one.

So if true I guess congrats to Ian Ritchie who has kept RFU out of the limelight. Accused of sticking his head in the sands, it would suggest that he has actually been doing something useful away from the glare of the press and internet.

I need a shower now, cannot believe I just said something decent about the RFU.

TJ wrote:Take what is in the times with a large pinch of slat.  Tehy have been consistent in pspread the PRL position as the truth and also the PRL spout off to the press in a way others do not.  so a lazy journalist willalways have the PRL line to parrot.

If they really are not budging its a sad day for northern hemisphere rugby as the Rabo unions simply cannot concede to them.

However trhe solidaarity of the est of the unions and the IRB does mean that its the PRL teams who will be the outcasts and the ones with no european competition to play in.  the rest will have a diminished comp.

you will just have a rabbo cup thats all!

it will be meaningless like most league cups are these days..(teams will worry about there league performance over the cup)

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Quins
As discussed ad infinitum
1) leaving the euro cup in the clubs hands leaves the smaller nations permanently vulnerable to rule changes further designed to handicap them. the PRL want a self perpetuating elite
2) the increasing gulf in the finances prices the smaller teams out of getting good players.
3) the loss of opportunities for meaningful game makes it harder to develop players
4) the lack of top teir games makes it harder to recruit players

Conceding to the PRL demands would mean with 5 a few years there would be no pro rugby in Scotland or Italy, seriously damaged game in ireland and wales, a 6N that looses all competitive edge.  But all would be OK 'cos the PRL team owners would be richer and thats all that counts to them

The Rabo unions can never concede to the PRLs position because of the huge damage it would do and the inherent unfairness of the proposal

If you want Scotland and Italy to revert to semi pro and to never win a 6N game except agaist each other again then support the PRL.  If yo want a competative european rugby both at club and international level then reist thhem. its your choice

fortunatly I do not believe a word that comes from the PRL and its mouthpieces in the press and suspect actually they will be forced into significant compromise as they are isolated and have lost their main bargaining chip - the RCC is dead and with it the BT deal

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

Perhaps that's why the Amlin isn't great then?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:Here is  a question for you.  If the 2nd teir comp is going to be so good and it would be great for the Rbo teams why not apply the same argument and put more middle ranked AP teams into it?  After all they don't do very well in the HC

the hypocrisy and cant over this is incredible.

A european cup with only french and English teams in it plus a few token others is no european cup

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just described the current Amlin almost to a tee, and that gives the answer to your question. It's the inclusion of some Pro12 teams that would improve the Amlin (not to "so good" level, but hopefully to a level that is more attractive to a wider set of fans, eyeballs and wallets.)

Adding some of the lesser Pro12 teams would broaden the appeal of the Amlinv2 with more borders to cross.
Banishing most of the minnows to a 3rd tier would reduce mismatches.
The real trick would be to provide enough incentives for all teams to take the pool stages seriously - it's conceivable that the Pro12 teams would take the competition seriously (as Dragons tend to do) and that would force the Franglo teams to up their game.

And are you seriously suggesting that middle-ranked Exeter's place is in the Amlin, while Cardiff's is HC?

On current form absolutely not. You would have to go back 2 or 3 years to make that argument.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Just can't see how the 3rd tier is viable though.

Could be viable if the B+I Cup was extended a bit - the games are even played on HCup weekends. I'd still leave 24 teams in the HCup though.

From what little we've heard about the 3rd tier, it would be played in September as a pre-qualifying tournament for 2 teams to go into the Amlinv2. Worryingly, it seems to be off the agenda of the various PRL talking heads in recent times - I say worryingly, because it seems to be the best idea to come out of this farrago.

I see it as a short tournament, with maybe only 8 or so teams, who will have qualified from domestic leagues (or perhaps regional cross-border competitions under the auspives of FIRA-AER) or superclubs like Buceresti. Travel costs to be subsidised from the the central distribution pool. That's all pure speculation on my part.

Including B&I Cup teams may help in the appeal of the competition, but I'm of the opinion that it should be restricted to Tier 2 nations to give them a pathway through their glass ceiling, with a possible exception for the Italian Super10, or League of Excellence, or what ever it's called nowadays.

TJ, If you think that the Times(a Murdoch owned paper) is a mouth piece for the PRL you really need to think.The bit about duel TV coverage probably has more to do with it

The times will only have info that the PRL give them. No one else is shouting so loud. so the times article is going to be from the PRL viewpoint. Lazy journalism rather than biased.

Th third teir was never a serious proposal. Just a part of the smokescreen intended to bolster support. You have to understand this - only one thing matters to the PRL - more money for them.

TJ wrote:Th third teir was never a serious proposal.  Just a part of the smokescreen intended to bolster support.  You have to understand this - only one thing matters to the PRL - more money for them.  

 

TJ wrote:Th third teir was never a serious proposal.  Just a part of the smokescreen intended to bolster support.  You have to understand this - only one thing matters to the PRL - more money for them.  

Ah if only it was that simple......

It is the only thing that matters to them. everything else is smokescreen designed to get people to believe they have the best interests of rugby at heart. look at their actions. Open your eyes.

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

ok, pretending for a minute that nothing was changing. then yes i think going to 6/6/6+2 (or 6/6/8) with no automatic qualification would clearly improve both 1st and 2nd tier competitions. absolutely. commercially in terms of gameday ticket sales and TV rights value, and objectively in terms of more harder, close games in both tournaments. happy now?

TJ wrote:Th third teir was never a serious proposal.  Just a part of the smokescreen intended to bolster support.  You have to understand this - only one thing matters to the PRL - more money for them.  

It may have been, or may not, but PRL organised, and presumably financed, the World Club 7's tournament in August which included club/superclub teams from Tier2 nations (those with the most chimney pots).

If they see an opportunity to tap into the Russian market, for example, in XV's, and drag in Georgians, Romanians, Spanish, Portuguese, etc, or even Americans and Canadians, they may well go for it (with the obvious proviso of the financial struggles of the Spanish).

In any event, whether future European competitions are run by ERC or RRC or whomever, there ought to be a pathway for aspirational teams from wider Europe - if they're not good enough yet, they may be in 5 years time (or may not).

quinsforever wrote:ok, pretending for a minute that nothing was changing. then yes i think going to 6/6/6+2 (or 6/6/8) with no automatic qualification would clearly improve both 1st and 2nd tier competitions. absolutely. commercially in terms of gameday ticket sales and TV rights value, and objectively in terms of more harder, close games in both tournaments. happy now?

When you say no automatic qualification - you mean for teams from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy?

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

ok, pretending for a minute that nothing was changing. then yes i think going to 6/6/6+2 (or 6/6/6/8) with no automatic qualification would clearly improve both 1st and 2nd tier competitions. absolutely. commercially in terms of gameday ticket sales and TV rights value, and objectively in terms of more harder, close games in both tournaments. happy now?

Why do you think this would increase gameday ticket sales when I'va already pointed out that the opposite is the case as proved by Connacht.

Pot Hale wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ok, pretending for a minute that nothing was changing. then yes i think going to 6/6/6+2 (or 6/6/8) with no automatic qualification would clearly improve both 1st and 2nd tier competitions. absolutely. commercially in terms of gameday ticket sales and TV rights value, and objectively in terms of more harder, close games in both tournaments. happy now?

When you say no automatic qualification - you mean for teams from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy?

thats right - its one rule for the PRL teams - cross subsidy, 6 guarenteed places, double their share of the money. its another rule for the Rabo unions,

no i mean no automatic qualification for any teams within any particular league.

it will also have the effect of no automatic qualification to the top-tier tournament for a particular team from w,Ir,Sc, It.

but i bet you the standard of matches in rabo12 will shoot through the roof. probably more tv money and tickets sales, and all the good things that come from greater competition.

6/6/6 would dramatically reduce audience and ticket sales in Scotland - an devalue the comp by reducing diversity

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

ok, pretending for a minute that nothing was changing. then yes i think going to 6/6/6+2 (or 6/6/6/8) with no automatic qualification would clearly improve both 1st and 2nd tier competitions. absolutely. commercially in terms of gameday ticket sales and TV rights value, and objectively in terms of more harder, close games in both tournaments. happy now?

Why do you think this would increase gameday ticket sales when I'va already pointed out that the opposite is the case as proved by Connacht.

you are looking at 1 club, connacht, out of the total of 4 that you care about. i am talking about overall gameday sales and tv rights for the WHOLE Of BOTH EUROPEAN COMPETITIONS.

Quins - do you watch the Rabo?  How on earth do you think the PRL proposal would improve the quality of the games - Oh yes - you believe the canard that teams do not try in the Rabo as they qualify for europe anyway - a load of drivel as anyone who actually watches games knows

the proposal would weaken the Rabo not strengthen it as all the stars would leave

Sales an d value would drop dramatically as there would be 40% less Rabo teams to follow

TJ wrote:6/6/6 would dramatically reduce audience and ticket sales in Scotland - an devalue the comp by reducing diversity

thats what you think. i think differently. ever stop to consider that edinburgh might have more supporters if, in whatever league it is in, it starts to win more regularly and gather momentum? i firmly believe that close competition and a realistic shot of doing well is what grows the sport as a spectacle from the ground up. not handouts.

TJ wrote:6/6/6 would dramatically reduce audience and ticket sales in Scotland - an devalue the comp by reducing diversity

Would you be willing to give more money to the Irish,Welsh,Scots and Italians if your predictions don't come true?

quinsforever wrote:but i bet you the standard of matches in rabo12 will shoot through the roof. probably more tv money and tickets sales, and all the good things that come from greater competition.

This sounds like a mantra with little basis in fact. There may well be a little bump towards the end of the season, probably. However most of the mid-season apathy for certain games in the Pro12 comes from internationals missing. They are still going to be missing, we have a higher percentage of internationals per team than in the Top14 and Premiership. Even some bottom of the table sides have many internationals. We saw a bump when playoffs came in. But we're talking about a relatively small increase and this will be smaller this time around.

What really shifts season tickets is top class European rugby. It's not going to be the end of the world if the system changes but the negatives will outweigh the positives for mid-table Pro12 sides. Lets not be patronising about the reasons for doing this. It's not 'to create a more competitive Pro12' or to 'increase competition'. It's a case of reducing the number of teams in the top tier while keeping your representation the same so you can pocket a larger share of the profits. If there's any degree of wanting to increase competition its with regards to the second tier.

Still hoping for 6/6/8. 6/6/6 just doesn't make sense. It's not diverse enough and doesn't guarantee everyone a spot at the top table each year.

quinsforever wrote:you are looking at 1 club, connacht, out of the total of 4 that you care about. i am talking about overall gameday sales and tv rights for the WHOLE Of BOTH EUROPEAN COMPETITIONS.

I am using an real life example of what happens when a team enters the top tier competition whereas you are just saying what you think will happen even though it flies in the face of reality.Oh yeah using capitals doesn't make your point any more valid,it just makes you look like a child.

No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

I am certain that edinburgh would not attract anything like the crowds it does now in the second teir contest. They would lose all their stars, they would be playing oppononts no one cares about. they would be playing in front of hundreds not thousands.

thing is quins - do you actually follow the RaBO - I do. Its obvious that its the big games that brings in the crowds. No one cares about the secon teir comp and no one would go to watch the games bar the diehard fan of whom there are few. Many folk would simply go back to watching club games or not go at all. remeber we are still building a fan base. We need the attactive fixtures

quinsforever wrote:No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

No one is suggesting we get money from the PRL - all we want is a fair share of the proceeds of the european cup. the PRL do not put any money into the euro cup. -

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:you are looking at 1 club, connacht, out of the total of 4 that you care about. i am talking about overall gameday sales and tv rights for the WHOLE Of BOTH EUROPEAN COMPETITIONS.

I am using an real life example of what happens when a team enters the top tier competition whereas you are just saying what you think will happen even though it flies in the face of reality.Oh yeah using capitals doesn't make your point any more valid,it just makes you look like a child.

i used capitals because you had competely missed the point so i wanted to highlight it.

it is 100% completely and utterly irrelevant how much more money connacht gets in tickets etc by being in the competition. what is relevant is what the negative impact on the team that is not in the competition when compared to the positive impact on connacht. because, it is all about the net benefit to the greatest number that is important. that is what contributes to growth, success and health of a competition over time. if you cant understand my point or think its invalid then i think we should stop talking about it and just agree to disagree.

quinsforever wrote:No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

That just goes to show that you don't believe in what you're saying.

quinsforever wrote:no i mean no automatic qualification for any teams within any particular league.

it will also have the effect of no automatic qualification to the top-tier tournament for a particular team from w,Ir,Sc, It.

but i bet you the standard of matches in rabo12 will shoot through the roof. probably more tv money and tickets sales, and all the good things that come from greater competition.

There is no automatic qualification for any teams except the four from Scotland and Italy.

There are automatic qualification spots for all countries currently. Decided by highest ranking in Ireland, England, Wales and France. Under new proposals, the only countries with automatic qualifying places would be England and France.

TJ wrote:

quinsforever wrote:No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

No one is suggesting we get money  from the PRL - all we want is a fair share of the proceeds of the european cup. the PRL do not put any money into the euro cup.   -

i was responsding to asoreleftshoulder who specifically asked if more money could be given in the future

"Under new proposals, the only countries with automatic qualifying places would be England and France."


thats all a bit of a stretch though isn't it- the new system (if taken up) will be based on leagues not countries and the rabbo with 12 teams will have more auto spots..


ANd yes this argument can go around and around in circles for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever

Quins - we understand your point and know it is wrong. It is certain that being in the second teir would reduce ticket sales and sponsorship hugely of teams like Edinburgh.

The net benefit of the PRL proposals - a richer AP and top 14 and an impoverished rest left to feed of scraps. An uncompetaive 6N and the collapse of Pro rugby in Scotland and Italy

There might be more money in total - but we would see none of it and indeed would have significantly less as crowds and sponsership dry up.

I've spent the last 72 hours studying the history and dynamics of UEFA, the soccer organisation.

There are no meaningful comparisons between European football and rugby.

Please let the analogies stop, for the love of kryste.  If there is any dignity to be salvaged in this thread before the merciful 1000 posts are reached.

Casartelli wrote:I've spent the last 72 hours studying the history and dynamics of UEFA, the soccer organisation.

There are no meaningful comparisons between European football and rugby.

Please let the analogies stop, for the love of kryste.  If there is any dignity to be salvaged in this thread before the merciful 1000 posts are reached.

Good lad!

No

NO

TJ wrote:I am certain that edinburgh would not attract anything like the crowds it does now in the second teir contest.  They would lose all their stars, they would be playing oppononts no one cares about.  they would be playing in front of hundreds not thousands.  

thing is quins - do you actually follow the RaBO - I do.  Its obvious that its the big games that brings in the crowds. No one cares about the secon teir comp and no one would go to watch the games bar the diehard fan of whom there are few.  Many folk would simply go back to watching club games or not go at all.  remeber we are still building a fan base.  We need the attactive fixtures

i dont watch the rabo. but i dont buy the argument that scotland is some kind of developing rugby nation either. but if you really think it is, then the place to get developmental funds from is the IRB - thats what they do with the £150m or whatever it will be from RWC2015. not fair to expect prl/lnr clubs to view euro club competition as developmental (at least not the top tier).

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

That just goes to show that you don't believe in what you're saying.

 i have been 100% consistent. 1/3 of money to each league. no more no less. why should there be additional xfrs in the future from professionally run clubs to WRU,IRFU,SRU,FIR? please explain.

why should prl/lnr clubs subsidize in the future anything unless they think it allows them to make overall more money? if it looked like the overall competition was genuinely struggling in terms of eyeballs/gate receipts etc in future and its overall commercial value was slipping, then i am sure the prl/lnr clubs would want to do whatever it took for them to continue to make money. and if that meant adjusting the format or whatever i am sure they will look to make that happen.

mystiroakey wrote: the rabbo with 12 teams will have more auto spots..[/color]

How on earth do you make none per country to be more than the 3.3.2.2 they have now. How on earth do you make 6 teams from the rabo to be more than 10 there is now? You need to understand this - no one is interested in the 2nd teir. if its so good put more AP teams in it - the same nonsensical arguments you apply to putting more rabo teams in applies equally to the AP Its better for quins to be in the 2nd teir so they won't get thumped every week and might win a game?

this is one of the things that really annoy me about this debate. the dual standards applied by trhe PRL apologists to the Rabo teams and the AP ones.

the PRL subsides with anactual transfer of money the lower half of their league directly with HC money - and thats OK - but hey then try to make out that equal shares as we have no is somhow a subsidy to the Rabo teams as the english audience pays more and that is a subsidy that is wrong despite there actually being no transfer of funds so its not a subsidy

According to the PRL going into the second teir will be good for the middle ranked Rabo teams and thats right - but the middle ranked AP teams have to stay in the top teir

Its humbug hypocisy and cant

quinsforever wrote:i dont watch the rabo.

righteo - but you know better than us who have followed it from the beginning how it works and what will happen

and please - there is no transfer of money from the PRL teams to the Rabo teams NONE AT ALL - the only subsidy here is the top 6 AP subsidise the bottom 6. all unions get the same share of the HC profits per entrant.

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:No.

if IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR want more money, get it from the IRB. not LNR/PRL clubs.

That just goes to show that you don't believe in what you're saying.

 i have been 100% consistent. 1/3 of money to each league. no more no less. why should there be additional xfrs in the future from professionally run clubs to WRU,IRFU,SRU,FIR? please explain.

why should prl/lnr clubs subsidize in the future anything unless they think it allows them to make overall more money? if it looked like the overall competition was genuinely struggling in terms of eyeballs/gate receipts etc in future and its overall commercial value was slipping, then i am sure the prl/lnr clubs would want to do whatever it took for them to continue to make money. and if that meant adjusting the format or whatever i am sure they will look to make that happen.

This is the same argument that's been rehashed before,why should England get 6 teams automatically when Ireland gets none?It's unfair and even if you take fairness out of it you totally ruin the European tournament that these teams play in,I feel very strongly that a competition so top heavy with English and French teams is doomed to failure as there is no diversity and that's what makes the HC great.

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote: the rabbo with 12 teams will have more auto spots..[/color]

How on earth do you make none per country to be more than the 3.3.2.2 they have now.  How on earth do you make 6 teams from the rabo to be more than 10 there is now?  You need to understand this - no one is interested in the 2nd teir.  if its so good put more AP teams in it - the same nonsensical arguments you apply to putting more rabo teams in applies equally to the AP Its better for quins to be in the 2nd teir so they won't get thumped every week and might win a game?

this is one of the things that really annoy me about this debate.  the dual standards applied by trhe PRL apologists to the Rabo teams and the AP ones.  

the PRL subsides with anactual transfer of money the lower half of their league directly with HC money - and thats OK - but hey then try to make out that equal shares as we have no is somhow a subsidy to the Rabo teams as the english audience pays more and that is a subsidy that is wrong despite there actually being no transfer of funds so its not a subsidy

According to the PRL going into the second teir will be good for the middle ranked Rabo teams  and thats right - but the middle ranked AP teams have to stay in the top teir

Its humbug hypocisy and cant

i fully believe the rabbo will get 8 compared to the prl and lnr's 6. thats more auto spots

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote: the rabbo with 12 teams will have more auto spots..[/color]

How on earth do you make none per country to be more than the 3.3.2.2 they have now.  How on earth do you make 6 teams from the rabo to be more than 10 there is now?  You need to understand this - no one is interested in the 2nd teir.  if its so good put more AP teams in it - the same nonsensical arguments you apply to putting more rabo teams in applies equally to the AP Its better for quins to be in the 2nd teir so they won't get thumped every week and might win a game?

this is one of the things that really annoy me about this debate.  the dual standards applied by trhe PRL apologists to the Rabo teams and the AP ones.  

the PRL subsides with anactual transfer of money the lower half of their league directly with HC money - and thats OK - but hey then try to make out that equal shares as we have no is somhow a subsidy to the Rabo teams as the english audience pays more and that is a subsidy that is wrong despite there actually being no transfer of funds so its not a subsidy

According to the PRL going into the second teir will be good for the middle ranked Rabo teams  and thats right - but the middle ranked AP teams have to stay in the top teir

Its humbug hypocisy and cant

i fully believe the rabbo will get 8 compared to the prl and lnr's 6. thats more auto spots

wait, didnt we do this on pages 7-11 of the thread?     

This thread is probably an exact equivalent of the discussions that the 'guys' around the negotiating table for the Franglo/Euro/Unions/TV stuff are having.

What's needed is some sort of overseeing body that governs the European (and, perhaps, the World?) game of rugby that could sort all this sort of 'business' admin out in advance.

Rather than leaving it to aggressive club owners, sitting on a made up board of representative nonsense, yelling at amateur buffoons from useless unions.

Casartelli wrote:This thread is probably an exact equivalent of the discussions that the 'guys' around the negotiating table for the Franglo/Euro/Unions/TV stuff are having.

What's needed is some sort of overseeing body that governs the European (and, perhaps, the World?) game of rugby that could sort all this sort of 'business' admin out in advance.

Rather than leaving it to aggressive club owners, sitting on a made up board of representative nonsense, yelling at amateur buffoons from useless unions.

what like UEFA and FIFA you mean?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

I don't agree that it would be at the expense of the 1st tier.  What predominantly makes a competition and matches worth watching is how competitive the encounters between the sides are, not what that competition is labelled.

Two competitions where the sides in each are more closely matched will make for more closer fought encounters.  The supporters and TV viewing public will respond to that.

mystiroakey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:This thread is probably an exact equivalent of the discussions that the 'guys' around the negotiating table for the Franglo/Euro/Unions/TV stuff are having.

What's needed is some sort of overseeing body that governs the European (and, perhaps, the World?) game of rugby that could sort all this sort of 'business' admin out in advance.

Rather than leaving it to aggressive club owners, sitting on a made up board of representative nonsense, yelling at amateur buffoons from useless unions.

what like UEFA and FIFA you mean?

Blydi good point mysti/quinsy

Internet research reveals something called the IRB. Where are they while the fate of Euro rugby hangs in the balance?

Arranging referee seminars in Barbados and sitting on the sidelines having a wazz?

aye but wheres UEFA!! is that supposedly the ERC!!!

markb wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

I don't agree that it would be at the expense of the 1st tier.  What predominantly makes a competition and matches worth watching is how competitive the encounters between the sides are, not what that competition is labelled.

Two competitions where the sides in each are more closely matched will make for more closer fought encounters.  The supporters and TV viewing public will respond to that.

I've already shown that is a false belief,the opposite happened in Connacht where the supporters stayed away when they were in the Amlin yet when they stepped up to the HC even though supporter didn't expect them to have a chance of getting out of their group season ticket sales sky rocketed.

markb wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the HC"

HC as we all know it is gone. no point getting too nostalgic. sh1t happens. the majority of teams and majority of money in european rugby weren't as happy with the format as you obviously were. its about what the format of any replacement is.

Well that's beside the point,is it worth increasing the appeal of the Amlin at the expense of the super duper shiny new Euro Cup.

Amlin (in format if not in name) is gone too. HC and Amlin were adminnistered by ERC. cant change one without changing the other.

Wow you are obtuse.I'll try one more time.

Is it worth increasing the appeal of the super duper shiny new 2nd tier Euro Cup at the expense of the super duper shiny new 1st tier Euro Cup?

Someone mentioned that as a Leinster fan I wouldn't care about the Amlin since I'm used to the HC but using Connacht as an example for years they toiled away in the Amlin but it was entry into the HC that increased their season ticket holders year on year and generated interest not only in HC matches but general league matches too.Connacht have come on in leaps and bounds since they gained entry  to the HC and no matter how much anyone would like to believe they would be better off competing in a lower competition real events have shown that to be completely false.

I don't agree that it would be at the expense of the 1st tier.  What predominantly makes a competition and matches worth watching is how competitive the encounters between the sides are, not what that competition is labelled.

Two competitions where the sides in each are more closely matched will make for more closer fought encounters.  The supporters and TV viewing public will respond to that.

No matter what teams go into the Amlin, it won't stop French and English teams from fielding 2nd/3rd string teams. Thus it will always be a devalued competition

Does this thread have its own gravity field yet - I am sure i read something about rotating masses getting heavier. Its sure orbiting quickly