European Play-Off

by alcoombe Wed 16 Oct 2013, 2:53 am

First topic message reminder :

English and French clubs have responded to demands by the Celtic and Italian unions for eight clubs from the RaboDirect Pro12 to remain in the top competition of European club rugby by proposing a new play-off system, Telegraph Sport has learned.

The move is likely to be viewed as a significant olive branch in the bitter row over the future of European club rugby.

It comes as negotiations intensify to hammer out a deal that will ensure that clubs from all six nations continue to compete in the same tournament next season.

It is understood that the proposal is for clubs from the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and Pro12 to take part in end-of-season play-offs that might produce two qualifiers for the following season’s Rugby Champions’ Cup, the new European tournament being set-up by the English and French to replace the Heineken Cup.

The weekend of May 17-18 next year has been earmarked for the inaugural European play-offs.

The plan might, for instance, see two matches being staged, with the prize for the winners of each being qualification for the Rugby Champions’ Cup.

The new play-off system is understood to be supported by both the English and French clubs and its details are being considered by the Rugby Football Union, which is playing a central role in attempting to thrash out a deal that its Celtic and Italian counterparts can support.

Supporters of the play-off system are understood to see two major benefits.

First, it is seen as a potentially acceptable compromise between the two sides.

One of the key demands behind the decision by the England and French clubs in June last year to serve the necessary two years’ notice to leave the current European Rugby Cup accord was for the Heineken Cup to be reduced from 24 to 20 clubs, in order to strengthen the second-tier Amlin Challenge Cup.

Coupled with this was the demand that only the top six from the Pro 12 would qualify, in order to remove guaranteed places in the European Cup and make it a truly meritocratic tournament.

The Celtic and Italian unions have stuck by their desire for the status quo to be retained, given their view of the European tournament as key for developing and nourishing professional rugby on as broad a basis as possible.

Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts have already given ground from their original demand by agreeing that each nation should have one guaranteed representative in the new Champions’ Cup, and the play-offs system would be in addition to that pledge.

It would allow the English and French to retain their 20-club model – with six sides from each league qualifying automatically.

But, depending how the play-off participants are decided, it could potentially see two more Pro12 clubs given a chance to qualify, which would broaden the entry to the tournament, but in a merit-based fashion.

The second benefit of the play-off idea is that it is hoped it will bring an extra element of excitement to the end of season for those clubs who are outside the domestic semi-finals in the three leagues but not under threat of relegation.

Much of the detail has yet to be thrashed out, but both the English and French clubs also see it as a priority to boost the second-tier competition of European club rugby, currently the Amlin Challenge Cup.

They see the second competition as crucial to the health of club rugby in Europe.

Average attendances in the first round of the Amlin Challenge Cup were 5,600, even with a 15,000 crowd to see Bath’s victory in Bordeaux.

It is not yet clear whether the play-off proposal will prove acceptable to the Celtic and Italian unions, and there remains considerable ground to be made up in terms of the distribution of revenues, governance of the new competitions and the separate commitments made by each side to rival broadcasters.

Nonetheless, if nothing else it suggests that, while time is now on no one’s side, a deal can yet be struck.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10381474/English-and-French-tempt-Celts-and-Italians-to-European-deal-with-play-offs-offer.html

by SecretFly Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:22 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
quinsforever wrote:LOL - i just noticed the banner ads on this website...Saracens v Toulouse at Wembley being advertised...
Aren't those banner ads reliant on your search history? I have a Heinz Beanz ad in my banner ad area.... I must do some very boring searches.
There's no ads for consensual heterosexual adult pastimes on my laptop banner.

You probably use a private setting for those searches................. Whistle

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:It seems to be a frenzy of gambling on a large scale...perhaps with the WC publicity in mind to help the gambles along.

But with BT offering 'free' viewing yet paying big money to AP...and with Saracens handing out freeish tickets?

Gambling on the future seems to be in the air... with many people hoping the gamble pays off or they lose big time............

Seems the lessons of the International Economic Meltdown that many countries are still trying to struggle out of have been lost on some slot-machine-addicted execs

I say it makes no sense in my opinion because you talk about gambling. Where's the gambling? In all likelihood a compromise will be reached.

International economic meltdown? No not all - that was people spending even more money than they don't have. Every country is hugely in debt and will continue to be so. Rugby is different - there is no crisis. Only if you for example hit the panic button there might be.

Sin e Sarries have filled their new stadium well on most occasions. Okay it's not full every game but it's close to that. Always going to be teething problems at a new venue. It takes time to build an established fanbase. Surely you would realise.

As for the knowing little about marketing. I laugh at that. I doubt you know what it consists of.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:25 pm

Seem to recall that in a playoff semi at WR, the hosts allowed Sarries alternate Tigers/Sarries flags for the escort boys/girls.

Not the shouty Sarries' self-promoting American glop-garbage.

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:26 pm

Notch wrote:

Quality

Is that meant as sarcasm or do you genuinely like them?

by Brendan Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

Can i just point out Connacht as an example of growing a brand and attendance.

They were faced with closure in the mid 00s but have grown each year to where they now have more season ticket holders this year then they use to have attend games a few years ago. And lets be honest they lose more than they win and the weather can be horid but they got 9k for sarries.

In galway GAA football and Hurling get 20k plus a game at county level while the club games would get a 1000+ i'd assume for regular games.

On top of that they would have about 1500 at least that attend soccer.

An the west has alot of hippies who couldn't care about sports.

Point is they are growing well both on and off the pitch.

On a side note Leicester must be one of the few places that gets good rugby attendances on top of good football attendances

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

Sin é wrote:LostinWales - Sarries are losing money hand-over-fist (4.5m last year I think).

I'm not sure Sarries knows a lot about marketing and developing of a brand, but one of the maddest thing they tried to do was to play Munster last year in New York in the group stages.

As anyone who would have known about Ireland v Italy in the Giants stadium in New York in '94 would know that Munster would have liked that very much. Pity it didn't come off. Some trouble about putting posts in artifical turf in Meadowlands.

See this is where you don't understand the whole marketing concept. Sarries at the time did not have their own stadium. Playing away from Vicarage Road hardly hurt Saracens. E.g. they hammered Racing Metro in Belgium. It was an opportunity to experiment. Now that Saracens are at their new ground they haven't experimented with moving HC games outside the country have they?

It's not mad, just brave and bold.

When you have an established home and fan base like Leinster or Munster does for example you can be more conservative, less shouty but when you have to drum up support in other ways bold, innovative approaches attract media attention.

Not all works of course but if 50% hit the mark it's better to try them out.

by quinsforever Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:33 pm

This what is commonly referred to as a my flags bigger than yours, or flag measuring contest? Wink

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:35 pm

beshocked wrote:
Notch wrote:

Quality
Is that meant as sarcasm or do you genuinely like them?

I just think the idea of someone claiming their club is pushing boundaries because of the variety in the design of flags available to supporters is genuinely very funny.

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:39 pm

Brendan wrote:Can i just point out Connacht as an example of growing a brand and attendance.

They were faced with closure in the mid 00s but have grown each year to where they now have more season ticket holders this year then they use to have attend games a few years ago. And lets be honest they lose more than they win and the weather can be horid but they got 9k for sarries.

In galway GAA football and Hurling get 20k plus a game at county level while the club games would get a 1000+ i'd assume for regular games.

On top of that they would have about 1500 at least that attend soccer.

An the west has alot of hippies who couldn't care about sports.

Point is they are growing well both on and off the pitch.

On a side note Leicester must be one of the few places that gets good rugby attendances on top of good football attendances

With all due respect to Connacht there doesn't seem to be that much competition in the area. I agree though it's good if they are growing.

Were there seriously 9k vs Sarries? Didn't look like it to me.....not saying it to criticise Connacht. It's just it genuinely looked more like 5.5k.

Leicester have the established fanbase, also their fans are used to being in the final basically every year.

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:42 pm

Notch wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Notch wrote:

Quality
Is that meant as sarcasm or do you genuinely like them?
I just think the idea of someone claiming their club is pushing boundaries because of the variety in the design of flags available to supporters is genuinely very funny.

Fair enough I can understand that viewpoint but it's just a small example of what Saracens have done in the past. Pushing the boundaries is perhaps an exaggeration but it's an example of doing things differently.

Glad you like them anyway. thumbsup

by Brendan Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:42 pm

Lets not forget that half of munsters fans have to travel 90-120mins to go see a home game.

As has been pointed out Leinster were the poorly attended provience. Now they are one of the best. Doing good on the pitch helps but they were also known as the ladyboys. Once they had a better brand it improved.

by SecretFly Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:44 pm

beshocked wrote:
I say it makes no sense in my opinion because you talk about gambling. Where's the gambling? In all likelihood a compromise will be reached.

International economic meltdown? No not all - that was people spending even more money than they don't have. Every country is hugely in debt and will continue to be so. Rugby is different - there is no crisis. Only if you for example hit the panic button there might be.

A gamble. Having a certain number of chips (BT cash promise) and placing them on a certain number you hope will come up (getting all your demands for a new European competition).
Spin the wheel and see what comes up (negotiate).

That's a gamble.
These English words are very malleable, they can be used in many contexts. PRL/LNR did gamble on the future (quiting the present and putting their money on hope of a new hegemony [club controlled Euro rugby]). We're waiting for the ball to land on a number to see where they stand. Did they make a killing at the casino? We wait and see.

by TJ Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:47 pm

Both PRL and BT have gambled here that is for sure.

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:48 pm

beshocked wrote:
Notch wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Notch wrote:

Quality
Is that meant as sarcasm or do you genuinely like them?
I just think the idea of someone claiming their club is pushing boundaries because of the variety in the design of flags available to supporters is genuinely very funny.
Fair enough I can understand that viewpoint but it's just a small example of what Saracens have done in the past. Pushing the boundaries is perhaps an exaggeration but it's an example of doing things differently.

Glad you like them anyway.

by quinsforever Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:50 pm

TJ wrote:Both PRL and BT have gambled here that is for sure.

although quite how much they stand to make or lose nobody but them can say

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:50 pm

Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:51 pm

'shocked wrote:
(1) Every country is hugely in debt and will continue to be so.
(2) Rugby is different - there is no crisis.
Only if you for example hit the panic button there might be.

1. For every monetary transaction there has to be a creditor and a debitor. You can't have a negative-sum aggregate. Primary school stuff really.

2. Of course there is a crisis. From where I stand (i.e. somewhere in the Franglo/Celtalian no man's land) I detect both a crisis and a panic.

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:56 pm

beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.

It's true but Saracens have been there since the start of professionalism. They've had the same amount of time as the Irish provinces to build a fanbase- they were putting big investment into their playing squad as long ago as 95/96.

I think the main thing is we have these provinces that cover large swathes of the country whereas Saracens suffer from being just another London club. They have competition not just from other London rugby clubs but also from many local Premiership football clubs. We don't have any other domestic rivals in terms of professional sport. Of course there are more people in London than all of Ireland, so make of that what you will. Anyway, the two situations aren't really comparable.

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 5:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:
I say it makes no sense in my opinion because you talk about gambling. Where's the gambling? In all likelihood a compromise will be reached.

International economic meltdown? No not all - that was people spending even more money than they don't have. Every country is hugely in debt and will continue to be so. Rugby is different - there is no crisis. Only if you for example hit the panic button there might be.

A gamble. Having a certain number of chips (BT cash promise) and placing them on a certain number you hope will come up (getting all your demands for a new European competition).
Spin the wheel and see what comes up (negotiate).

That's a gamble.
These English words are very malleable, they can be used in many contexts. PRL/LNR did gamble on the future (quiting the present and putting their money on hope of a new hegemony [club controlled Euro rugby]). We're waiting for the ball to land on a number to see where they stand. Did they make a killing at the casino? We wait and see.

Secretfly okay well technically it is a gamble but I wouldn't compare it to the recklessness of bankers. You might not think it but the guys in the PRL are for more savvy and intelligent than you give them credit for. Of course there is an element of risk but they know where they stand.

Technically you could call anything a person does is a gamble. There's an element of risk in pretty much anything.

You drive to work for example - there's a risk you might crash. Eat some food - risk of food poisoning. Sit below a tree in the caribbean - danger of a coconut falling on your head, risk seeing your side getting hammered in a sports game etc.

Change can bring an element of risk and also potential for discord in my opinion.

by Brendan Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:01 pm

Thought i had seen 9k but it was only 7500

Last year i think their matches were about 5k in the Rabo

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:05 pm

beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.

It took them 3 years. From about 5K at Munster v Leinster in Lansdowne (home venue for Leinster as such), to about 40K at the semi final in Croke Park v Munster in 2009 (the support looked about 50/50 in the stadium of 82K).

By the way, the purpose of a flag is for people to identify with/follow. However attractive the flags are, it does give a disjointed view of your supporters.

The Munster Supporters Club hands out flags before matches for free (and they do the same with Leinster). Good for presenting a united front and making your presence felt.

by beshocked Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:06 pm

Notch wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.
It's true but Saracens have been there since the start of professionalism. They've had the same amount of time as the Irish provinces to build a fanbase- they were putting big investment into their playing squad as long ago as 95/96.

I think the main thing is we have these provinces that cover large swathes of the country whereas Saracens suffer from being just another London club. They have competition not just from other London rugby clubs but also from many local Premiership football clubs. We don't have any other domestic rivals in terms of professional sport. Of course there are more people in London than all of Ireland, so make of that what you will. Anyway, the two situations aren't really comparable.

Notch technically we haven't been a London club during most of the professional area. We've been holed up in Watford.

Our problem has been the lack of identity. A stadium we can call our own. In a sense we still struggle with the brand identity but I hope eventually things will slot into place.

You say that there's a large swathe of country to cover but most of the support surely comes from Galway for Connacht, Dublin for Leinster, Limerick for Munster?

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:13 pm

Yeah, but my point is fans in Dublin or wherever don't have any divided loyalties. There isn't another club on their doorstep competing for support. People do travel from outside the metropolitan centres to see the provinces play even if most people who would invest in a season ticket live closer by.

In London (or the definition of London used by PRL clubs that includes Watford/Reading Whistle

) there are more rugby fans than any part of Ireland. They're just divided between more clubs is all.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:17 pm

Brendan wrote:Lets not forget that half of munsters fans have to travel 90-120mins to go see a home game.

As has been pointed out Leinster were the poorly attended provience. Now they are one of the best. Doing good on the pitch helps but they were also known as the ladyboys. Once they had a better brand it improved.

It was very much a D4 thing to head to a Leinster game in years gone by but they have managed (but completely succeeded) to shift it into more of a wider Dublin and decent provincial presence (but could be better).

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:33 pm

beshocked wrote:
Notch technically we haven't been a London club during most of the professional area. We've been holed up in Watford.

Our problem has been the lack of identity. A stadium we can call our own. In a sense we still struggle with the brand identity but I hope eventually things will slot into place.

You say that there's a large swathe of country to cover but most of the support surely comes from Galway for Connacht, Dublin for Leinster, Limerick for Munster?

Well, Munster had their challenges as well. Cork v Limerick. Added to that, the amateur club game had a huge following in Munster and first loyalty would remain with their club - and there was huge competition between the Cork Clubs & the Limerick Clubs.

Munster maintain two training bases (will be all moved to Limerick in 2 years time) - one in Limerick and one in Cork as well as two grounds (Thomond & Musgrave). The Munster administrative HQ is in Cork. It has often been said that Declan Kidney was a miracle worker to even get the Limerick & Cork players into the same dressing room (the rivalry was so great), let alone win anything together in the first place!

by Casartelli Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:40 pm

Sin é wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.
It took them 3 years. From about 5K at Munster v Leinster in Lansdowne (home venue for Leinster as such), to about 40K at the semi final in Croke Park v Munster in 2009 (the support looked about 50/50 in the stadium of 82K).

By the way, the purpose of a flag is for people to identify with/follow. However attractive the flags are, it does give a disjointed view of your supporters.

The Munster Supporters Club hands out flags before matches for free (and they do the same with Leinster). Good for presenting a united front and making your presence felt.

Now that this has been highlighted, I'm beginning to suspect that the major problem with the Welsh regions is a lack of decent flags.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:40 pm

Sin, I don't get why you use this cheap tickets thing as a stick to beat Saracens with. Unlike Leinster or Munster, Saracens don't have a large support base. That's just a fact. Even the Saracens fans would admit that. So they're selling cheap tickets to entice more fans and broaden their support base. Seems sensible to me.

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have very strong identities (some of the strongest in rugby I'd say). The loyalty of people to their province is older than the hills. They did the business on the field and large numbers of fans were attracted. It's obviously tougher for Saracens. What is wrong with giving good deals on tickets to try and win new fans over?

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 6:52 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Sin é wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.
It took them 3 years. From about 5K at Munster v Leinster in Lansdowne (home venue for Leinster as such), to about 40K at the semi final in Croke Park v Munster in 2009 (the support looked about 50/50 in the stadium of 82K).

By the way, the purpose of a flag is for people to identify with/follow. However attractive the flags are, it does give a disjointed view of your supporters.

The Munster Supporters Club hands out flags before matches for free (and they do the same with Leinster). Good for presenting a united front and making your presence felt.

Now that this has been highlighted, I'm beginning to suspect that the major problem with the Welsh regions is a lack of decent flags.

Or not having even a few of their supporters who would actually organise it.

by Casartelli Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:00 pm

Sin é wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Sin é wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan how long would you say it's taken Leinster to do that? These things don't happen over night in my opinion.
It took them 3 years. From about 5K at Munster v Leinster in Lansdowne (home venue for Leinster as such), to about 40K at the semi final in Croke Park v Munster in 2009 (the support looked about 50/50 in the stadium of 82K).

By the way, the purpose of a flag is for people to identify with/follow. However attractive the flags are, it does give a disjointed view of your supporters.

The Munster Supporters Club hands out flags before matches for free (and they do the same with Leinster). Good for presenting a united front and making your presence felt.

Now that this has been highlighted, I'm beginning to suspect that the major problem with the Welsh regions is a lack of decent flags.
Or not having even a few of their supporters who would actually organise it.

It's probably a health & safety thing. Welsh kids would do all sorts with flags except actually wave them.

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:02 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sin, I don't get why you use this cheap tickets thing as a stick to beat Saracens with. Unlike Leinster or Munster, Saracens don't have a large support base. That's just a fact. Even the Saracens fans would admit that. So they're selling cheap tickets to entice more fans and broaden their support base. Seems sensible to me.

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have very strong identities (some of the strongest in rugby I'd say). The loyalty of people to their province is older than the hills. They did the business on the field and large numbers of fans were attracted. It's obviously tougher for Saracens. What is wrong with giving good deals on tickets to try and win new fans over?

Actually, Munster are selling tickets to students for e15 for the Gloucester game at the moment.

Saracens will never build up a decent fanbase by doing that. What they need to do is build their brand gradually like holding their match with Toulouse in their new Stadium and creating a demand.

When Thomond was only 12K capacity, you had to become a member of the Supporters Club so that you could be put into a DRAW for a Heineken Cup ticket. But they crawled before the walked.

I just don't think that Saracens can build a loyal fanbase using those methods.

by quinsforever Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:06 pm

Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Sin, I don't get why you use this cheap tickets thing as a stick to beat Saracens with. Unlike Leinster or Munster, Saracens don't have a large support base. That's just a fact. Even the Saracens fans would admit that. So they're selling cheap tickets to entice more fans and broaden their support base. Seems sensible to me.

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have very strong identities (some of the strongest in rugby I'd say). The loyalty of people to their province is older than the hills. They did the business on the field and large numbers of fans were attracted. It's obviously tougher for Saracens. What is wrong with giving good deals on tickets to try and win new fans over?
Actually, Munster are selling tickets to students for e15 for the Gloucester game at the moment.

Saracens will never build up a decent fanbase by doing that. What they need to do is build their brand gradually like holding their match with Toulouse in their new Stadium and creating a demand.

When Thomond was only 12K capacity, you had to become a member of the Supporters Club so that you could be put into a DRAW for a Heineken Cup ticket. But they crawled before the walked.

I just don't think that Saracens can build a loyal fanbase using those methods.

ah, the luxuries of a guaranteed HC spot. opens up all kinds of options for increasing support and revenues...

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:12 pm

quinsforever - how did Leicester manage to be so successful with the same handicap?

by quinsforever Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:12 pm

by being successful

by VietGwentRevisited Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:16 pm

I hate flags with a passion. Always some eejit standing up waving it, blocking the view at exactly the wrong time.

Honestly you will see me on the news one day pushing some dopey tart over the edge of top tier. The big question is whether she will hit the ground before the cowboy hat, inflatable leek or oversized flag.

by quinsforever Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:20 pm

tigers secret is consistent success in AP. it breeds more success on and off the pitch, especially if the youth system is well set up to capitalise on the success. imo anyway.

Appearances: 378, Champions: 7, Wins: 257, Draws: 20, Losses: 100

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:26 pm

To be fair, Munster have been in and around the top of the Celtic League every year right back to when it was still a two-conference system. They would have been consistently qualifying most years based on their form if we backdated new proposals.

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:31 pm

I think there is one year since the league started Munster were outside the Top 6.

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:32 pm

quinsforever wrote:tigers secret is consistent success in AP. it breeds more success on and off the pitch, especially if the youth system is well set up to capitalise on the success. imo anyway.

Appearances: 378, Champions: 7, Wins: 257, Draws: 20, Losses: 100

Munster:
Appearances 230, Champions 3, Wins: 148. Draws 4: Losses 78.

by Sin é Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:33 pm

Notch wrote:I think there is one year since the league started Munster were outside the Top 6.

Yea, last year Munster were 7th.

by doctor_grey Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:40 pm

Munster and Leicester both have a terrific record of long term excellence. Clearly this shows a supreme level of organisational excellence which is a rare commodity. Even when they don't win, every team facing them is always a bit worried. This should be celebrated everywhere (and that's hard for me to say as a Saints fan).

by **Notch** Wed 16 Oct 2013, 7:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:I think there is one year since the league started Munster were outside the Top 6.
Yea, last year Munster were 7th.

No, they were 6th last year. 7th in 2003/2004.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 16 Oct 2013, 8:00 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Munster and Leicester both have a terrific record of long term excellence. Clearly this shows a supreme level of organisational excellence which is a rare commodity. Even when they don't win, every team facing them is always a bit worried. This should be celebrated everywhere (and that's hard for me to say as a Saints fan).

Funny. Being brought up in a different era, I always look at the Saints as best friends as they/we often shared the burden of taking on the SH tourists.

by doctor_grey Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:15 pm

Port, I remember that well. There was a time we really weren't rivals. Then you Leicesterites installed those speed cameras on the A508. The rest is history.
I only play up the rivals thing for fun.

Only question is whether the A508 was referred to as the A508 at that time. Wasn't it only called the Northampton Road?

by Metal Tiger Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:32 pm

Brendan wrote:
On a side note Leicester must be one of the few places that gets good rugby attendances on top of good football attendances

I seem to remember that the highest attendances at Walkers stadium (LCFC) were when Tigers borrowed their ground for a cup game.

I'm not sure if that is a "fact" or I just made that up.

But what the feck... lets just state FACT. It seems to be the vogue thing on here so I will just pretend I am in my 20s again, confident that I am always correct, put my fingers in my ears and shout nonsense at anyone who disagrees with me. Whistle

by doctor_grey Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:48 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
Brendan wrote:
On a side note Leicester must be one of the few places that gets good rugby attendances on top of good football attendances
I seem to remember that the highest attendances at Walkers stadium (LCFC) were when Tigers borrowed their ground for a cup game.

I'm not sure if that is a "fact" or I just made that up.

But what the feck... lets just state FACT. It seems to be the vogue thing on here so I will just pretend I am in my 20s again, confident that I am always correct, put my fingers in my ears and shout nonsense at anyone who disagrees with me.

Ahh, I see you are uniquely qualified to discuss the European Club tournament imbroglio in detail.

by Metal Tiger Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:10 pm

Doc,

In my 20's I knew everthing. FACT

In my 30's I suspected that I didn't know everthing.

In my 40's I realised I knew sod all and started to listen to other people.

The art of compromise comes with experiance & wisdom so thank your lucky stars that half the idiots on here are not involved in the negotiations!

by mr-bryns-attitude Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:49 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:Doc,

In my 20's I knew everthing. FACT

In my 30's I suspected that I didn't know everthing.

In my 40's I realised I knew sod all and started to listen to other people.

The art of compromise comes with experiance & wisdom so thank your lucky stars that half the idiots on here are not involved in the negotiations!

wise words indeed.
an american chap i once knew told me this."never try to educate a chump because he won't understand and it will only make him angry"

by quinsforever Thu 17 Oct 2013, 12:28 am

Metal Tiger wrote:Doc,

In my 20's I knew everthing. FACT

In my 30's I suspected that I didn't know everthing.

In my 40's I realised I knew sod all and started to listen to other people.

The art of compromise comes with experiance & wisdom so thank your lucky stars that half the idiots on here are not involved in the negotiations!

so wise old man (i am also 42 Smile

) in view what you have heard from other people (not here obviously) where do you think the current bid-offer in negotiations is and what do you think will happen.

because i couldnt agree more that most other people are either deluding themselves (20s) or bluffing (30s) rather than listening to the flow of information and feeling the currents....

by doctor_grey Thu 17 Oct 2013, 1:33 am

Metal Tiger wrote:Doc,

In my 20's I knew everthing. FACT

In my 30's I suspected that I didn't know everthing.

In my 40's I realised I knew sod all and started to listen to other people.

The art of compromise comes with experiance & wisdom so thank your lucky stars that half the idiots on here are not involved in the negotiations!

Absolute, mate. Absolute!

by doctor_grey Thu 17 Oct 2013, 1:41 am

I was just watching the news here in New Jersey.
The big news story, of course, is that stupid budget fiasco which was caused by..............a failure to negotiate with any real intent or in good faith.

I watched both sides declare victory and after laughing my head clean off I started applying it to the Rugby. Which are the Republicans and which are the Democrats? A funny exercise.

One of my conclusions is I am happy none of these blokes are involved in Rugby. Another conclusion is they did get an agreement at the last minute............

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