European Play-Off

English and French clubs have responded to demands by the Celtic and Italian unions for eight clubs from the RaboDirect Pro12 to remain in the top competition of European club rugby by proposing a new play-off system, Telegraph Sport has learned.

The move is likely to be viewed as a significant olive branch in the bitter row over the future of European club rugby.

It comes as negotiations intensify to hammer out a deal that will ensure that clubs from all six nations continue to compete in the same tournament next season.

It is understood that the proposal is for clubs from the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and Pro12 to take part in end-of-season play-offs that might produce two qualifiers for the following season’s Rugby Champions’ Cup, the new European tournament being set-up by the English and French to replace the Heineken Cup.

The weekend of May 17-18 next year has been earmarked for the inaugural European play-offs.

The plan might, for instance, see two matches being staged, with the prize for the winners of each being qualification for the Rugby Champions’ Cup.

The new play-off system is understood to be supported by both the English and French clubs and its details are being considered by the Rugby Football Union, which is playing a central role in attempting to thrash out a deal that its Celtic and Italian counterparts can support.

Supporters of the play-off system are understood to see two major benefits.

First, it is seen as a potentially acceptable compromise between the two sides.

One of the key demands behind the decision by the England and French clubs in June last year to serve the necessary two years’ notice to leave the current European Rugby Cup accord was for the Heineken Cup to be reduced from 24 to 20 clubs, in order to strengthen the second-tier Amlin Challenge Cup.

Coupled with this was the demand that only the top six from the Pro 12 would qualify, in order to remove guaranteed places in the European Cup and make it a truly meritocratic tournament.

The Celtic and Italian unions have stuck by their desire for the status quo to be retained, given their view of the European tournament as key for developing and nourishing professional rugby on as broad a basis as possible.

Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts have already given ground from their original demand by agreeing that each nation should have one guaranteed representative in the new Champions’ Cup, and the play-offs system would be in addition to that pledge.

It would allow the English and French to retain their 20-club model – with six sides from each league qualifying automatically.

But, depending how the play-off participants are decided, it could potentially see two more Pro12 clubs given a chance to qualify, which would broaden the entry to the tournament, but in a merit-based fashion.

The second benefit of the play-off idea is that it is hoped it will bring an extra element of excitement to the end of season for those clubs who are outside the domestic semi-finals in the three leagues but not under threat of relegation.

Much of the detail has yet to be thrashed out, but both the English and French clubs also see it as a priority to boost the second-tier competition of European club rugby, currently the Amlin Challenge Cup.

They see the second competition as crucial to the health of club rugby in Europe.

Average attendances in the first round of the Amlin Challenge Cup were 5,600, even with a 15,000 crowd to see Bath’s victory in Bordeaux.

It is not yet clear whether the play-off proposal will prove acceptable to the Celtic and Italian unions, and there remains considerable ground to be made up in terms of the distribution of revenues, governance of the new competitions and the separate commitments made by each side to rival broadcasters.

Nonetheless, if nothing else it suggests that, while time is now on no one’s side, a deal can yet be struck.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Cheapening a product to initially get numbers through the door will work, I'm just trying to say that rugby has gone beyond that now, and we need to start capitolizing on sustainable long term growth, the time for giveaways and gimmicks has gone, now it's time to work on the top product to attract... Oh the PRL want rid of the top product... Ummm...

TJ wrote:Edinburgh play in a 70 000 seat staduim to crowds of around 5000 paying £20 -30  per seat.  I would much rather they got bigger crowds at lower price.  2 kids free with every adult, seats at £5-10, free tickerts to schools etc etc etc etc.  That would build audience and get kids in who might just then become fans

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Edinburgh play in a 70 000 seat staduim to crowds of around 5000 paying £20 -30  per seat.  I would much rather they got bigger crowds at lower price.  2 kids free with every adult, seats at £5-10, free tickerts to schools etc etc etc etc.  That would build audience and get kids in who might just then become fans

Much better would be to move to a smaller ground and create a good family atmosphere there. Not sure late kick-offs suits families with kids either (the kick-offs are dictated by the broadcasters).

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Edinburgh play in a 70 000 seat staduim to crowds of around 5000 paying £20 -30  per seat.  I would much rather they got bigger crowds at lower price.  2 kids free with every adult, seats at £5-10, free tickerts to schools etc etc etc etc.  That would build audience and get kids in who might just then become fans

Much better would be to move to a smaller ground and create a good family atmosphere there. Not sure late kick-offs suits families with kids either (the kick-offs are dictated by the broadcasters).

beshocked wrote:
Sin e oh right it's back to you saying how big your wang is. A Heineken cup semi final is obviously not seen as a premium product by enough people.

You talk about cheaping the image - you think it cheapens it more by the ERC only getting 25k people for a 90k stadium or discounting tickets and getting 50k + for a 90k stadium.

Keep banging the Irish are awesome drum. Population becomes irrelevant when you think that football in England is a far bigger competitor to anything in Ireland.

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:Again Quins - you simply do not know what is happening in Scotland.  Part of the HC money goes to schools development coaches and so on to try to grow the grassroots.  This is a big part of why the Scots cannot accept the PRL proposals due to the damage it would do to the whole structures

i havent seen any proposals that reduce money for anyone in Rabo12 yet. the HC money goes straight into player pockets. the fact it passes through SRU hands doesnt alter this. Scottish sides get approx £4m from HC is that right? The wage bill of the SRU was i believe £18,433,000 in 2012-2013.

beshocked wrote:thebluesmancometh I am sorry. You are correct. Narrow minded is the wrong word. Overly conservative is more appropriate.

Hardly cheapening a product - trying to get more people involved and people having a great time. That gives positive images and helps the product. If you give people a good day out how does that cheapen a product?

We are not at a level where scarcity works yet. We still need to get more people involved.

Yes of course attendances in GAA and football in Ireland can easily match those of English football........

Irish football doesn't seem very popular to me at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_League_of_Ireland


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues


Just compare average attendances.....

Even the English rugby championship is more popular than football in Ireland!

Much of the detail has yet to be thrashed out, but both the English and French clubs also see it as a priority to boost the second-tier competition of European club rugby, currently the Amlin Challenge Cup.

They see the second competition as crucial to the health of club rugby in Europe.

Average attendances in the first round of the Amlin Challenge Cup were 5,600, even with a 15,000 crowd to see Bath’s victory in Bordeaux.

beshocked wrote:Sin e you can't put a figure on how many follow football in Ireland. I don't think you can in GAA either actually because isn't the structure different?

Suppose it depends how you define big support base - they can get 20k to big games but if the likes of Toulon bring just a man and a dog for an away game it makes it tough to fill a big stadium. They brought a decent amount of fans to the two AP finals they were in.

Giving away tickets doesn't work well? How do you work that out?

Don't know about the cheap tickets at VR. VR was basically just ignored as a venue last season.

Remember Saracens had been playing in VR for over 15 years. Hardly the most desirable venue.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e you can't put a figure on how many follow football in Ireland. I don't think you can in GAA either actually because isn't the structure different?

Suppose it depends how you define big support base - they can get 20k to big games but if the likes of Toulon bring just a man and a dog for an away game it makes it tough to fill a big stadium. They brought a decent amount of fans to the two AP finals they were in.

Giving away tickets doesn't work well? How do you work that out?

Don't know about the cheap tickets at VR. VR was basically just ignored as a venue last season.

Remember Saracens had been playing in VR for over 15 years. Hardly the most desirable venue.

From tourism reports, you can get up to 20K Irish per match at Man Utd. One company interviwed does 5K per week. Celtic have 8K season ticket holders in Ireland. Liverpool would also have a huge following. Very hard to find a tv in Dublin showing rugby on a saturday afternoon for example.

Giving away tickets won't work for rugby. The rules are too complicated for most and they haven't a clue what is going on and its just boring for them.

Giving stuff away for free devalues the product and annoys your regulars because they have paid full whack.

thebluesmancometh wrote:If they have a good experience, and if their parents decide to take them, and if they don't get turned to a more attractive sport.

Pretty big ifs for short term guaranteed detriment

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e you can't put a figure on how many follow football in Ireland. I don't think you can in GAA either actually because isn't the structure different?

Suppose it depends how you define big support base - they can get 20k to big games but if the likes of Toulon bring just a man and a dog for an away game it makes it tough to fill a big stadium. They brought a decent amount of fans to the two AP finals they were in.

Giving away tickets doesn't work well? How do you work that out?

Don't know about the cheap tickets at VR. VR was basically just ignored as a venue last season.

Remember Saracens had been playing in VR for over 15 years. Hardly the most desirable venue.

From tourism reports, you can get up to 20K Irish per match at Man Utd. One company interviwed does 5K per week. Celtic have 8K season ticket holders in Ireland. Liverpool would also have a huge following. Very hard to find a tv in Dublin showing rugby on a saturday afternoon for example.

Giving away tickets won't work for rugby. The rules are too complicated for most and they haven't a clue what is going on and its just boring for them.

Giving stuff away for free devalues the product and annoys your regulars because they have paid full whack.

SecretFly wrote:It seems to be a frenzy of gambling on a large scale...perhaps with the WC publicity in mind to help the gambles along.

But with BT offering 'free' viewing yet paying big money to AP...and with Saracens handing out freeish tickets?

Gambling on the future seems to be in the air... with many people hoping the gamble pays off or they lose big time............

Seems the lessons of the International Economic Meltdown that many countries are still trying to struggle out of have been lost on some slot-machine-addicted execs

"Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts have already given ground from their original demand by agreeing that each nation should have one guaranteed representative in the new Champions’ Cup, and the play-offs system would be in addition to that pledge."

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sin e you can't put a figure on how many follow football in Ireland. I don't think you can in GAA either actually because isn't the structure different?

Suppose it depends how you define big support base - they can get 20k to big games but if the likes of Toulon bring just a man and a dog for an away game it makes it tough to fill a big stadium. They brought a decent amount of fans to the two AP finals they were in.

Giving away tickets doesn't work well? How do you work that out?

Don't know about the cheap tickets at VR. VR was basically just ignored as a venue last season.

Remember Saracens had been playing in VR for over 15 years. Hardly the most desirable venue.

From tourism reports, you can get up to 20K Irish per match at Man Utd. One company interviwed does 5K per week. Celtic have 8K season ticket holders in Ireland. Liverpool would also have a huge following. Very hard to find a tv in Dublin showing rugby on a saturday afternoon for example.

Giving away tickets won't work for rugby. The rules are too complicated for most and they haven't a clue what is going on and its just boring for them.

Giving stuff away for free devalues the product and annoys your regulars because they have paid full whack.

That summarises pretty succinctly the cleft stick that the Districts, the Regions, Saracens, Wasps, LI and Sale (amongst others) find themselves in.

The laws of rugby are complicated. And if Saracens - a continually leading Jeff side in the most populous European city with huge backing from Wray and Safferland - can't fill a 10000-seat stadium nor proffering loss-leading 'spectaculars', then you'd have to doubt the model's future in the professional game.

Remember that to drop the price to sell tickets in oversized stadia increases hire and temporary labour costs consummately too.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It seems to be a frenzy of gambling on a large scale...perhaps with the WC publicity in mind to help the gambles along.

But with BT offering 'free' viewing yet paying big money to AP...and with Saracens handing out freeish tickets?

Gambling on the future seems to be in the air... with many people hoping the gamble pays off or they lose big time............

Seems the lessons of the International Economic Meltdown that many countries are still trying to struggle out of have been lost on some slot-machine-addicted execs

to be fair though fly, at least the prl and lnr club execs are gambling with their own money.

bit different from union chiefs and bank chiefs, no?

beshocked wrote:Sin e you seriously expect me to believe that 20k of ManU's fans at every game come from Ireland?

Rugby is not that complicated actually - certainly compared to a sport like american football. Okay it's not as simple as kicking a ball into a net but it's easy to explain. I have done it many times with success.

thebluesmancometh Smarties as you call them no longer play at VR.

Portnoy's complaint give it a little time. You can't just wave a magic wand and expect the numbers of supporters to grow twofold. New stadium should in the end lead to decent attendances.

Sorry secretfly your last post means little sense in my opinion.

SF wrote:the owner of Leicester's money

lostinwales wrote:All this is true but what are the alternatives if you want to grow the audience? Trying something different is a risk, but it might work. Sitting back and just expecting a mass of punters to appear as if from nowhere is probably less likely to work. And its worth remembering different strategies wont work the same everywhere. Keeping an open mind is important.

It could well be, for instance, given that the STH saracens are probably not as numerous as at other clubs that they will take the same view as Saracens - that its better to get the gates up however you do it. It isnt the same situation as at Leicester or Northampton and wouldnt work there.

beshocked wrote:

Sorry secretfly your last post means little sense in my opinion.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

SF wrote:the owner of Leicester's money

Steady on, Fly. There are hundreds/thousands of them.

The FTA BTS occasional offers are to draw in more broadband punters.

Once hooked by the bait, like any multinational business, the line will become taut and the prey will be landed.

BT also want to cut holes in BSB's nets.

Plus it doesn't help to have a kitten romping over your keyboard whilst typing. (I guess from some comments on the EC debate, some posters have juvenile feline infestations.)

Sin é wrote:

lostinwales wrote:All this is true but what are the alternatives if you want to grow the audience? Trying something different is a risk, but it might work. Sitting back and just expecting a mass of punters to appear as if from nowhere is probably less likely to work. And its worth remembering different strategies wont work the same everywhere. Keeping an open mind is important.

It could well be, for instance, given that the STH saracens are probably not as numerous as at other clubs that they will take the same view as Saracens - that its better to get the gates up however you do it. It isnt the same situation as at Leicester or Northampton and wouldnt work there.

I see from their Sarries website that this is their 10th visit to Wembley. Surely they should be getting full houses on the back of that in their new stadium?

I was at the Sarries v Munster semi in 2008 in Coventry. Very nice supporters and while it was mostly Munster fans there, there was a good few Sarries supporters (possibly 9-10K).

beshocked wrote:
Saracens push the boundaries - they try new things. Most other club's flags for example are so boring. Some of the designs of ours are miles better.

They have to try new things because they don't have the years and years of an established core fanbase like most clubs who are based in a specific city like Leicester.

quinsforever wrote:LOL - i just noticed the banner ads on this website...Saracens v Toulouse at Wembley being advertised...

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:LOL - i just noticed the banner ads on this website...Saracens v Toulouse at Wembley being advertised...

Aren't those banner ads reliant on your search history?  I have a Heinz Beanz ad in my banner ad area.... I must do some very boring searches.

Notch wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Saracens push the boundaries - they try new things. Most other club's flags for example are so boring. Some of the designs of ours are miles better.

They have to try new things because they don't have the years and years of an established core fanbase like most clubs who are based in a specific city like Leicester.

Was this comment made unironically?!