why Sarries may lose to the stronger teams

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/a-daunting-task-but-toulouse-have-shown-connacht-where-saracens-can-be-exposed-1.1657823

Above is a very good and detailed look into why Sarries struggle against the big teams.

My knowledge of the finer things would not be as good as others so wondering what you thought.

He goes why it may work in England but not the bigger teams

This is not a dig at Sarries as they are Top 5/6 in Europe but maybe what they need to go that next step.

whocares wrote:Saracens made the semis last year and are on an upward trend so deserve some respect. I do think their game has evolved in a positive way in the last 2/3 years and are now a better version than say Munster
See it is not too difficult to post something nice about them   

Seriously though, why everyone seem to dislike them? Is it the hat thing?

Meanwhile Toulouse is really struggling in Parma where Zebre is not giving up

Ha ha ha!   

whocares wrote:Saracens made the semis last year and are on an upward trend so deserve some respect. I do think their game has evolved in a positive way in the last 2/3 years and are now a better version than say Munster
See it is not too difficult to post something nice about them   

Seriously though, why everyone seem to dislike them? Is it the hat thing?

Meanwhile Toulouse is really struggling in Parma where Zebre is not giving up

Quick call the moderators....I am going hysterical about the comment about Munster....I demand satisfaction...etc etc...   

PS- It is the hats definitely...

Zebre attacking constantly now but its 16-6 and all over bar the shouting...

Quality from Jamie George there. Look forward to seeing him and Ward stepping like that in the Saxons game.

Reasons people dislike satires include but are not limited to:

Them screwing over their own historic membership and fans
Being owned by South Africans and ran as a commercial business first and rugby club second
That they keep beating the club people support

The Vunipolas are outstanding as well. Just look like seniors playing against the youth team at the moment!

With Toulouse not getting the tbp its looking good for munster home qf.

whocares wrote:Seriously though, why everyone seem to dislike them? Is it the hat thing?

For me, yes it is. Most definitely.

To be honest, the scoreline slightly flatters Connacht given Hodgsons problems from the tee.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Reasons people dislike satires include but are not limited to:

Them screwing over their own historic membership and fans
Being owned by South Africans and ran as a commercial business first and rugby club second
That they keep beating the club people support

That's a lie!
Quins have never lost to Satires! Now centaurs....

But yea there are those points and I think Venter got up a few people's noses like Cockers does, and Borthwick is just really fricking annoying!

Jeez, if Charlie Hodgson hadn't been wearing wellingtons this could have been 70 points plus!

whocares wrote:With Toulouse not getting the tbp its looking good for munster home qf.

I really do hope that Munster get the home QF.

Toulouse win 16-6...Next up Toulon and Glasgow

Saracens so strong today

Good to see plenty of England squad players performing well.

You have a to feel a little bit sorry for Connacht.

This has been an absolute smashing for Connacht.

By the way, who is this ME-109 numpty and what did Saracens do to him?

MOTM to Billy Vunipola, I would have said Hodgson but BV has completely destroyed the Connacht forwards.

Massive hit there by Rodney.

Damn it, another try to splashton

Ashton!!!!   

Lam will be under serious pressure now. Connacht were never up for this. Even when they lost heavily to quins last year they put in huge hits in the first 30 mins or so.

They never looked interested in this. Shambolic.

That's a bit classless from Ashton really. Nothing more than that, just a bit class less. Unnecessary.

What did he do?

Did his dive for the last try.

Notch wrote:That's a bit classless from Ashton really. Nothing more than that, just a bit class less. Unnecessary.

People will always find something to criticise Ashton or Saracens.

It's not like he stamped on someone's head.

Cyril wrote:

Notch wrote:That's a bit classless from Ashton really. Nothing more than that, just a bit class less. Unnecessary.

People will always find something to criticise Ashton or Saracens.

It's not like he stamped on someone's head.

No, it's not of course.

I don't have a big problem with it, it's just unnecessary and in the circumstances rather lacking in class. No-one is suggesting that anything come of it but if you want respect as a player in this game you really do have to earn it with more than your sporting performances.

Its a shame that Borthwick is retiring after this season. He has been one of my favourite players over the years.

He's just enjoying his rugby, Notch.

Nachos, yeah Borthwick has been a tough, honest player. Not quite top class in terms of the international game but an excellent club player and leader. He'll be difficult to replace. At least his nose will get a chance to heal.

He has just been one of those players I admire, never backs down and is as hard as nails. Thought that he was pretty good internationally as well.

I agree that Saracens will find it hard to replace him in the team but I would imagine he will stay with the club as a coach?

Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

Griff wrote:Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

In fairness, I don't like anyone doing it. Its just not my thing.

Castrogiovani did it once and broke his ribs. People just laughed.

Griff wrote:Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

There's a fine line between honestly celebrating a score and just twisting the knife  and when it's at the end of a one-sided game like that, thats just twisting the knife. If Saracens were on the other side of that scoreline, and he was beaten by his opposite number, he wouldn't like it.

Its unnecessary at the best of times, but when it's a competitive game you can give guys the benefit of the doubt over the release of pent-up emotion you experience- when it's the 10th try of the game you'd want to catch yourself on as its only your own self it reflects poorly on.

He celebrates because he enjoys scoring tries. I never understood why people said it was worse in the battering against Italy (or now with Connacht). Are we saying that the game was so easy, the tries so easy they're not worth celebrating? Now that shows arrogance.

If you don't like it, great. It's hardly the end of the world and soon will come the day he'll do a Leguizamon

It's interesting the uproar when Armitage wagged a finger when scoring a try. Very little when Phillips did the same (apparently they were teammates so it was ok). Even less the second time he did it. Some people seem to drew people's ire.

Yeah, but one was in a Heineken Cup final between heated rivals and the other was one Bayonnais having some banter with a teammate in a meaningless exhibition game meant to showcase flamboyant rugby. Are people honestly meant to see that as the same thing?

Context is everything, especially in insult-based male bonding rituals! I agree it's not the end of the world, I'm just pointing out its slightly disappointing when a guy lets himself and his team down like that.

I don't think that he lets himself or his team down when he does it Notch. I really don't like any player doing it but its not a huge crime.

Nachos Jones wrote:I don't think that he lets himself or his team down when he does it Notch. I really don't like any player doing it but its not a huge crime.

I agree Nachos. To my mind a bit showy but not the end of the world really. I also think Griff's post had a lot of truth in it too.

Griff wrote:Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

His face?   

I took that to mean that some people just don't like him and therefore get even more annoyed when he splashes and then on top of everything they have to look at his (smiling) FACE! I'm not pretending to fully understand this by the way...

Notch wrote:Yeah, but one was in a Heineken Cup final between heated rivals and the other was one Bayonnais having some banter with a teammate in a meaningless exhibition game meant to showcase flamboyant rugby. Are people honestly meant to see that as the same thing?

Context is everything, especially in insult-based male bonding rituals! I agree it's not the end of the world, I'm just pointing out its slightly disappointing when a guy lets himself and his team down like that.

Didn't Phillips do it whilst playing for the Lions, i think North did too.

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:Yeah, but one was in a Heineken Cup final between heated rivals and the other was one Bayonnais having some banter with a teammate in a meaningless exhibition game meant to showcase flamboyant rugby. Are people honestly meant to see that as the same thing?

Context is everything, especially in insult-based male bonding rituals! I agree it's not the end of the world, I'm just pointing out its slightly disappointing when a guy lets himself and his team down like that.

Didn't Phillips do it whilst playing for the Lions, i think North did too.

Yep thats what I was talking about- it was in the sponsors kick about in Hong Kong, not in a proper game.

Cyril wrote:

Griff wrote:Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

His face?   

Yeah, that f*cking annoying, smug, English face of his.

Notch wrote:Yep thats what I was talking about- it was in the sponsors kick about in Hong Kong, not in a proper game.

What about the second time during a proper Lions game? And North did it on the proper Lions tour as well. Absolutely nothing made of it. But an entire thread was started for hating Armitage. Shane Williams was diving for years. Ashton does it and suddenly there are threads condemning it/him. Just one of those funny coincidences

I can't talk for other people but if you think I personally am being selective you're off base. I can't pretend I payed as much attention to the Lions this year as other years to be fair.

But I certainly wouldn't be an apologist for Williams and Phillips in my day.

Griff wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Griff wrote:Shane Williams used to do a big dive when scoring tries. No-one batted an eyelid. The furore over Ashton is down to two things: 1) his face, and 2) his nationality.

His face?   

Yeah, that f*cking annoying, smug, English face of his.

I Frak hate those English faces! With their stupid English looks and hair!

I love the swan dive myself.

I only love it when Ashton does it.

Notch wrote:I can't talk for other people but if you think I personally am being selective you're off base. I can't pretend I payed as much attention to the Lions this year as other years to be fair.

But I certainly wouldn't be an apologist for Williams and Phillips in my day.

No, that certainly was directed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. More a general observation of article creation and comments on here.

Leinsterfan4life really? Lam under pressure because his side got beaten by one of the best sides in England in their own backyard?

Lam and Connacht will be able to dine on that Toulouse win for years.

beshocked wrote:Leinsterfan4life really? Lam under pressure because his side got beaten by one of the best sides in England in their own backyard?

Lam and Connacht will be able to dine on that Toulouse win for years.

Connacht have been under performing all season, hence why they are bottom of the rabo. They have been unlucky with injuries but the performances this season have been unacceptable given the additions to the squad. Lam was under pressure from a lot of Connacht fans before the Toulose game so god knows what kind of stuff is being said now. That Toulouse game is a distant memory now for them now as their fans always said that one big performance wasn't good enough anymore they need to start backing it up.

Connacht never turned up for that game for whatever reason. Elwood certainly never would have let that happen as his speeches before matches are so inspirational.They showed they could compete with Saracens in the first round but that was a shambles.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:I can't talk for other people but if you think I personally am being selective you're off base. I can't pretend I payed as much attention to the Lions this year as other years to be fair.

But I certainly wouldn't be an apologist for Williams and Phillips in my day.

No, that certainly was directed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. More a general observation of article creation and comments on here.

Fair enoughski.

beshocked, the Toulouse win was great and all but 25% of all tackles missed today? Lam is under pressure now but its the players who will need to be dragged over hot coals, and the players who let the coaches and fans down. If we want to be the dominant nation in European rugby at this level and at international level we have to set the standards very high. We can't have a team with several guys who are likely to go on to be full internationals coming out of a game like that without getting hammered for it.

Connacht are underfunded at this level compared to a team like Saracens who are also able to retain and attract a better calibre of player, so no-one is going to hang them for losing if they do the fundamentals well and are competitive. What happened was a disaster- sometimes these have a silver lining down the road, how players react to adversity and all that, but the Connacht jersey was not done justice and there has to be ramifications for that.

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:I can't talk for other people but if you think I personally am being selective you're off base. I can't pretend I payed as much attention to the Lions this year as other years to be fair.

But I certainly wouldn't be an apologist for Williams and Phillips in my day.

No, that certainly was directed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. More a general observation of article creation and comments on here.

Fair enoughski.

beshocked, the Toulouse win was great and all but 25% of all tackles missed today? Lam is under pressure now but its the players who will need to be dragged over hot coals, and the players who let the coaches and fans down. If we want to be the dominant nation in European rugby at this level and at international level we have to set the standards very high. We can't have a team with several guys who are likely to go on to be full internationals coming out of a game like that without getting hammered for it.

Connacht are underfunded at this level compared to a team like Saracens who are also able to retain and attract a better calibre of player, so no-one is going to hang them for losing if they do the fundamentals well and are competitive. What happened was a disaster- sometimes these have a silver lining down the road, how players react to adversity and all that, but the Connacht jersey was not done justice and there has to be ramifications for that.

Not sure the aforementioned poster would understand those points unless he spoke afrikaners and you slipped him a few quid.

Lam needs to buck up his ideas and the players need a bollicking mostly.

ME-109 wrote:

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:I can't talk for other people but if you think I personally am being selective you're off base. I can't pretend I payed as much attention to the Lions this year as other years to be fair.

But I certainly wouldn't be an apologist for Williams and Phillips in my day.

No, that certainly was directed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. More a general observation of article creation and comments on here.

Fair enoughski.

beshocked, the Toulouse win was great and all but 25% of all tackles missed today? Lam is under pressure now but its the players who will need to be dragged over hot coals, and the players who let the coaches and fans down. If we want to be the dominant nation in European rugby at this level and at international level we have to set the standards very high. We can't have a team with several guys who are likely to go on to be full internationals coming out of a game like that without getting hammered for it.

Connacht are underfunded at this level compared to a team like Saracens who are also able to retain and attract a better calibre of player, so no-one is going to hang them for losing if they do the fundamentals well and are competitive. What happened was a disaster- sometimes these have a silver lining down the road, how players react to adversity and all that, but the Connacht jersey was not done justice and there has to be ramifications for that.

Not sure the aforementioned poster would understand those points unless he spoke afrikaners and you slipped him a few quid.

Lam needs to buck up his ideas and the players need a bollicking mostly.

We were playing for an Amlin place and we just turned over. Disgusted. The Toulouse game is meaningless if we don't improve in the league. Our forwards game is all individuals playing and our backs are a mix of open field runners and lads who love contact/the kick- there is no communication between the two styles. Lam is under pressure, we cannot finish bottom of the table. We need to be ahead of at least 2 teams. I know beshocked loves to talk about Connacht even more then his own teams, but he hasn't a clue what it means to grow up supporting "the development province" with no budget and no luck with refs; couple that with the constant pat on the heads and jolly good shows we get from even our Irish brethren and I see red. Even when there is some improvement we can't maintain passion or accuracy. We have it in us to be a top 6 side in the Rabo and a Amlin qualifier in the Heineken/Amlin Semi Finalist. We just have to go and Frak do it now.