Rob Penney and Simon Mannix to leave Munster

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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:19 pm

Just announced on twitter;

https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby

Does anyone else feel this is the wrong decision? Penney brought a transitioning Munster to the Heineken Cup semi-final in his first season, and now has them top of the league and in a home quarter-final despite the retirement of several key players and the ageing of others. He's slowly but effectively changing their style of play. Why on earth are they not trying harder to hold onto him?

Be interesting to see what details come out; if they were unwilling to give him the contract he wanted, if he wanted out or if they didn't want to retain him at all.
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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:26 pm

Munster fans not best pleased and not happy Foley will get the job

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:38 pm

It seems that Penney & Mannix have been offered a 3 year contract in Japan. Seems Munster only offered him a 1 year extention (which could be an IRFU decision as Mark Anscombe only got a 1 year extension as well).

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:40 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Munster fans not best pleased and not happy Foley will get the job

I'd have liked him to stay for another year or so, but I'd imagine lots of Munster fans would be very happy if Axel got the job as he is highly rated.

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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:41 pm

So it's a job security thing? Hard to criticise him for that tbh. In normal circumstances I'd think it was mad and they should be signing him up for at least another two but given the level of uncertainty over the structure of the competitions we'll be involved with next year it's a lot harder to offer longer terms and to accept them, for players and coaches alike.
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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:47 pm

Munster have announced that head coach Rob Penney and backs coach Simon Mannix will both leave the province at the end of the season.

Penney joined the Munster set-up at the start of the 2012/13 season and in his first year guided the squad to semi-final stage of the Heineken Cup and a sixth place finish in the RaboDirect Pro12 league.

This season Munster have recorded 15 wins out of 18 games and are currently top of the Pro12 league and through to quarter-final stage of the Heineken Cup for the fifteenth time in the competition's history.

Penney, who initially negotiated a two year contract with the option for a third year, has opted to decline the extension offer.

The terms and conditions of this extension had been agreed by the Munster Professional Games Committee and the IRFU but Penney has since attracted the interest of another club and there are terms on offer that are in line with his long-term needs.

Fellow New Zealander and backs coach Simon Mannix, who joined Munster at the same time as Penney, will also leave at the end of this season.

"When we reach the end of the season Rob will leave with our thanks and best wishes for the future," said Munster chief executive Garrett Fitzgerald.

"Rob has been a very positive influence on this Munster squad and management and we are disappointed to see him go as we had hoped that he would fulfil his third season. In developing the squad he has highlighted the strength and depth of the Munster panel, with the competition for places as high as ever.

"I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Simon for his work and commitment to the province, and we wish him all the best for the future. He has contributed to Munster's overall campaign and added great value to our coaching team.

"We now need to focus on the remainder of this season and the opportunities ahead in both the Heineken Cup and the RaboDirect Pro12. We are confident both Simon and Rob will continue to strive for success and guide the squad through to the next stage."

"I am disappointed to be leaving Munster as I have thoroughly enjoyed my time here. I have to take this opportunity presented to me and prioritise my family and personal circumstances at this time," said Penney.

"We still have a few months to go and the goals remain the same - I want to achieve success with this great group of lads!"
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Post by marty2086 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:49 pm

Declan Kidney's waiting patiently by his phone now

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 1:10 pm

Right decision, hopefully Munster can return to their traditional style of play.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 1:13 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Right decision, hopefully Munster can return to their traditional style of play.

They don't have the players to do that

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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 1:31 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Right decision, hopefully Munster can return to their traditional style of play.

I understand why we would be pleased about that as Ulster and Leinster fans who want to win things ahead of Munster, but it's not great for our test side if that happens! And thats my biggest concern. We need a strong Munster for the strongest possible Ireland.

If Anthoney Foley does get the job I think he will do quite well, but if they throw what Penney has been trying to develop in terms of skill levels and width in the bin they will regress. I think the crucial thing if they give the job to Foley is finding the right backs coach to work alongside him.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 1:40 pm

Notch wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Right decision, hopefully Munster can return to their traditional style of play.

I understand why we would be pleased about that as Ulster and Leinster fans who want to win things ahead of Munster, but it's not great for our test side if that happens! And thats my biggest concern. We need a strong Munster for the strongest possible Ireland.

If Anthoney Foley does get the job I think he will do quite well, but if they throw what Penney has been trying to develop in terms of skill levels and width in the bin they will regress. I think the crucial thing if they give the job to Foley is finding the right backs coach to work alongside him.
I just don't think they can play the "expansive" game, well at least until all the old guard are all gone. They will always be stuck between the two styles with Penny and Mannix.

I want nothing more than a strong Munster. I watched the documentary on Thomand park there a couple of months ago and it made me realise how much I miss watching that Munster team. I just don't think Penny is the right man for Munster. He also made some very strange selection calls such as starting Ronan ahead of Stander and his refusal of giving JJ a consistent run of games despite him playing well nearly every time he has lined out for Munster.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 2:30 pm

One thing about Penney, he sort of got them over the half way line with regard to confidence (semi of HCup last year). Hope they can build on that and move further out of the shadow of their predecessors.

Whats Tana Umago doing now? He was shortlisted the last time.
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Post by KiaRose on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 3:16 pm

This is seriously bad news. When Penney came in we watched aghast as he tried to change the Munster style totally, completely and without reference to tradition. Over that first season, we saw the beginning of a modificaton in Penney's coaching. He began to realise that the old Munster style was so deeply ingrained that he was not going to be able to change it immediately. I believe he also saw that there was value in it. As a result this season we have seen the emergence of a new style of play at Munster which has held on to the best of Munster's traditions (e.g. rolling mauls) infused with the off-loading style so reminiscent of Penney's home country. The result may not be as breath-taking as the stylish back-play we saw in Leinster a couple of season's ago but it has been very effective resulting in Munster getting a home QF in the HEC and leading the Pro12.

The question of course is why has this happened? All indications only a very short time ago were that Penney would continue for the optional third year of his contract. Might it have something to do with the fact that NO ONE knows what rugby there will be to play next season? The HEC is supposedly continuing, but without the Welsh and English; the Pro12 has no sponsor and who is going to play in it anyway? Scottish professional rugby is in dire danger of folding completely as is Italian. Are we, the provinces in Ireland, going to find ourselves returning to the amateur days of an inter-provincial championship?

The whole of Northern Hemisphere rugby is in a total mess. Now, while some of us may blame the attempted power / money grab by the PRL / LNR, they are not totally to blame. There is also the continuing row between the WRU and RRW; the commercial row between Sky and BT Sport; the (apparent) inactivity by the RFU in allowing the PRL clubs have so much power in England; the refusal by the ERC to sit down with PRL and LNR when they first gave notice that they were going to quit the HEC. All of these factors are leading to a state of complete anarchy in NH rugby. How can any club / province / region hope to retain the services of a coach who can command the attention of clubs in other parts of the world where the game is growing in a more organised fashion and where all seem to be able to pull together for the good of the game - players, management, fans, sponsors AND TV companies? NH Rugby is toxic at the moment and if I were in charge of the sponsorship pot for any company I doubt I would be looking to spread my largesse in the direction of rugby.

We need a Rugby Statesman to come and beat some heads together before the whole thing gloes completely down the tubes.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 4:46 pm

From Paul O'Connell's comments, it seems it was a family decision.

Paul O'Connell wrote:“Shock, I had heard rumours but officially today. It’s disappointing, but I suppose he has to do what’s best for him and family,” the second row said.

“He’s closer to NZ, the boys are nearly at an age where they’ll be going to university, they’ll be closer to home and family decisions are important and the players will respect that.”

“Hopefully Munster can continue on his improvements.”
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Post by MunsterMac on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 5:24 pm

Interesting comments Kia.

I don't think rugby in Ireland is going to end up back in the amateur days but I do think change is necessary in the European game.

Rugby in Europe is not like soccer where each country has a chance of running it's own league.

Realistically it makes sense for the 4 welsh regions to join the English league (just as it does in soccer).

And it also makes sense  (to me anyway) that the Italians join the French league (maybe Pro D2 where they'd make more money for a start).

Where does that leave Ireland and Scotland?

Well the Scots may as well join the English League just like the Welsh as realistically they don't have many options.

I think the Irish teams may have more options as I'd imagine the likes of Toulouse and Leicester would love the idea of Munster and Leinster visiting each season.

I think ultimately we're going to end up with a Europe with 2 or possibly even 1 league(s) with a couple of divisions.

Or maybe we could adopt the American AFL / NFL model?

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 6:05 pm

From what I read recently on other fora, the Italians had an offer of two spots in ProD2 in France, but chose the Rabo instead.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 6:22 pm

Quite shocked hearing this ..and yeah, a little sad.  The man said he'd need about three years to get Munster to the stage he wanted to get it to.  I felt he was getting there and it just annoys me a little that a guy who seemed to have dignity and honour (and the players appeared to like him), felt he didn't get the right conditions to hang around.

I know the IRFU are controlled by ever tightening funds.... and as player's contracts go up to try and hold onto them, other contracts seem to be more fragile.  

We're not out of the woods yet in terms of having homegrown coaches ready to take up any slack (O'Gara is just beginning that path as an example).  We need to remain a country that can attract good coaches from abroad and hold onto them or we risk drifting down to second grade NH coaches and possibly falling into current Welsh regional territory.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 6:37 pm

Fly, the man has a family to consider so I just wouldn't get annoyed with him for making a decision that suited his particular situation.

There are loads of Irish coaches around - O'Shea, Mark McCall and Jackman who are all head coaches with fairly good clubs. I think we have a very poor attitude to our own.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 6:49 pm

Sin é wrote:Fly, the man has a family to consider so I just wouldn't get annoyed with him for making a decision that suited his particular situation.

There are loads of Irish coaches around - O'Shea, Mark McCall and Jackman who are all head coaches with fairly good clubs. I think we have a very poor attitude to our own.

I'm not annoyed with him at all... sad to see him go.  Understand that he needed conditions in contracts to suit him.

O'Shea is not a coach, he's more a director and Munster will decide where they want to go but personally I don't have a whole lot of time for O'Shea and his 'talk, talk, talk' - I've disagree with his opinions more often than I've disagreed with Hook!  And that's saying something!!! Wink
Neither did I like his brush off of the Irish job ("I'm too busy with Quins")  He never seems too busy with Quins to be stuck in a RTE studio taking money to talk about Ireland though.  
Mark McCall... could IRFU afford him given that they couldn't meet Penney's conditions?
Jackman?  Maybe

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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 8:00 pm

Pity and sad to see him go. However tomorrow the sun will rise and Munster rugby will just get on with it.

Fly peddling the foreign option again... would seriously hope we could get someone other than Jackman!!! Anyhow I would be happy that Axel could move us forward with a good team around him...

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 8:02 pm

ME-109 wrote:Pity and sad to see him go. However tomorrow the sun will rise and Munster rugby will just get on with it.

Fly peddling the foreign option again... would seriously hope we could get someone other than Jackman!!! Anyhow I would be happy that Axel could move us forward with a good team around him...

Foreign good, ME.  Know what rugby means.  Irish coach exists that coaches to the same levels do name him.  If you can name him by all means pick him.

Now on to the highlighted bit.  Who?  O'Shea?  Please don't.  I'm honest here Munster don't need Mr Smarm'n'chat.  I genuinely have your best interests at heart. Wink

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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 8:12 pm

It's not that there aren't good enough Irish coaches around, it's that they aren't available- apart from Anthony Foley.
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Post by rodders on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:08 pm

Well I think Penney was a bit of a disaster at Munster and this is for the best all round. Once they get a coach who has them running straight instead of sideways they'll be serious title contenders again in whatever competition they are in.
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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:11 pm

That was Simon Mannix , no one is sad to see him go..

Still when our Northern cousins actually achieve something maybe then we will take some advice from them...

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:18 pm

Notch, Fly was talking as if ROG was the only Irish coaching material around. I've only pointed out that there are plenty of Irish coaches around. The other thing that really annoys me is this 'anyone who wants to be a coach should go abroad for a few years to learn stuff'. If you read what ROG has to say about Racing, professional standards are much lower than what they were in Munster. And I hear the same comments being made by other coaches who have come into Munster and moved on.
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Post by rodders on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:33 pm

ME-109 wrote:That was Simon Mannix , no one is sad to see him go..

Still when our Northern cousins actually achieve something maybe then we will take some advice from them...

Fine, I was just about to tell you who your next coach should be but I'll have to leave it now until we win the Heino in may .... censored 
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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:41 pm

Sin é wrote:Notch, Fly was talking as if ROG was the only Irish coaching material around. I've only pointed out that there are plenty of Irish coaches around. The other thing that really annoys me is this 'anyone who wants to be a coach should go abroad for a few years to learn stuff'. If you read what ROG has to say about Racing, professional standards are much lower than what they were in Munster. And I hear the same comments being made by other coaches who have come into Munster and moved on.

Which is why I think they should be looking further afield than France- Australia, South Africa and New Zealand would be good! But I think it's still win-win for us- we export coaches to England and France, or anywhere else, they earn their stripes and (hopefully) return when they are ready to step into a province. But there's also something to be said for knowing your enemy too. Unless the whole European mess isn't sorted out, if ROG is ever good enough as a coach to work for an Irish province he'll be coming back to a side that will be competing with French teams every year. Having the insight into their culture will help him when it's his turn to plot their demise.

In many ways, the French league suffers from being too introspective culturally- the standards are low because they don't export or import coaches to any great extent. They are not in tune with best practice around the world, whereas our standards are high because we have made an effort to try and emulate the very best of whats happening in Super Rugby etc. and bring in genuine expertise from overseas.

We've set the bar extremely high, too high to simply give the best jobs to coaches who haven't proven themselves at this level which is any Irish coach starting out or working in the AIL. So guys moving abroad really is the best option. I think we've got it spot on right now tbh.


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:44 pm

Sin é wrote:Notch, Fly was talking as if ROG was the only Irish coaching material around. I've only pointed out that there are plenty of Irish coaches around. The other thing that really annoys me is this 'anyone who wants to be a coach should go abroad for a few years to learn stuff'. If you read what ROG has to say about Racing, professional standards are much lower than what they were in Munster. And I hear the same comments being made by other coaches who have come into Munster and moved on.

I'm not saying ROG is the only coaching material - he ain't even close yet Wink But he's roughly the beginning of that most susccessful generation of players to actually get started...a good few years yet before he's close to being ready to lead from the front.

I couldn't care less where he chooses to do his apprenticeship - Leinster for all I care. It's he himself who chose to go abroad and was quite clear on his own reasons for doing so - the reasons you now object to, Sin.

So maybe you could have a word with ROG himself when he gets back to Munster and let him know how you feel about his reasons for picking a team outside Ireland to begin with.

Now, - you know an Irish coach you want for Munster? - name him. Don't mention a selection of Irish coaches (that's just a list that anyone could draw up) - name the specific coach you'd like for Munster, who is Irish?


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Post by rodders on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:50 pm

Notch wrote:
We've set the bar extremely high, too high to simply give the best jobs to coaches who haven't proven themselves at this level which is any Irish coach starting out or working in the AIL. So guys moving abroad really is the best option. I think we've got it spot on right now tbh.

Well its quite common actually for the Irish coaches to go abroad for experience - Ulster have a partnership program with Natal sharks for example but the problem is in the Union driven countries foreign coaches aren't going to end up in the top jobs. Coming up through the system is probably the best route for the Irish coaches.

Elwood would be a good fit but can't see past Foley here.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:51 pm

Penny?  I can't really see how he was a disaster.  He came to Munster when they were down on their luck and down on their rhythm and losing influencial players.  He specifically said he'd need about three years to get them back up challengling hard for HEC.
Has he had three years?  Nope. And already they are back on top of Pro12 and have been at the business end of Europe now twice under his reign.

It'll be embarrassing for someone (mostly the IRFU) if his players now go forward and actually win the HEC, which certainly isn't undoable for them.

Nope, Penny was getting to where he wanted to get to.  Pity his project was cut short.


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Post by Notch on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:51 pm

rodders wrote:
Notch wrote:
We've set the bar extremely high, too high to simply give the best jobs to coaches who haven't proven themselves at this level which is any Irish coach starting out or working in the AIL. So guys moving abroad really is the best option. I think we've got it spot on right now tbh.

Well its quite common actually for the Irish coaches to go abroad for experience - Ulster have a partnership program with Natal sharks for example but the problem is in the Union driven countries foreign coaches aren't going to end up in the top jobs. Coming up through the system is probably the best route for the Irish coaches.

Elwood would be a good fit but can't see past Foley here.    

Thats my point. That is why we excel  OK 
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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:52 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:Notch, Fly was talking as if ROG was the only Irish coaching material around. I've only pointed out that there are plenty of Irish coaches around. The other thing that really annoys me is this 'anyone who wants to be a coach should go abroad for a few years to learn stuff'. If you read what ROG has to say about Racing, professional standards are much lower than what they were in Munster. And I hear the same comments being made by other coaches who have come into Munster and moved on.

Which is why I think they should be looking further afield than France- Australia, South Africa and New Zealand would be good! But I think it's still win-win for us- we export coaches to England and France, or anywhere else, they earn their stripes and (hopefully) return when they are ready to step into a province. But there's also something to be said for knowing your enemy too. Unless the whole European mess isn't sorted out, if ROG is ever good enough as a coach to work for an Irish province he'll be coming back to a side that will be competing with French teams every year. Having the insight into their culture will help him when it's his turn to plot their demise.

In many ways, the French league suffers from being too introspective culturally- the standards are low because they don't export or import coaches to any great extent. They are not in tune with best practice around the world, whereas our standards are high because we have made an effort to try and emulate the very best of whats happening in Super Rugby etc. and bring in genuine expertise from overseas.

We've set the bar extremely high, too high to simply give the best jobs to coaches who haven't proven themselves at this level which is any Irish coach starting out or working in the AIL. So guys moving abroad really is the best option. I think we've got it spot on right now tbh.

Munster have had mostly foreign coaches over the last 12 years. In fact Munster have only had 3 Irish coaching staff since 1998 - Kidney, Niall O'Donovan and Axel. Foreign born coaches include Gaffney, Jim Williams, Dutchy, Laurie Fisher, McGahan, Penney & Mannix.
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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:Notch, Fly was talking as if ROG was the only Irish coaching material around. I've only pointed out that there are plenty of Irish coaches around. The other thing that really annoys me is this 'anyone who wants to be a coach should go abroad for a few years to learn stuff'. If you read what ROG has to say about Racing, professional standards are much lower than what they were in Munster. And I hear the same comments being made by other coaches who have come into Munster and moved on.

I'm not saying ROG is the only coaching material - he ain't even close yet Wink But he's roughly the beginning of that most susccessful generation of players to actually get started...a good few years yet before he's close to being ready to lead from the front.

I couldn't care less where he chooses to do his apprenticeship - Leinster for all I care.  It's he himself who chose to go abroad and was quite clear on his own reasons for doing so - the reasons you now object to, Sin.  

So maybe you could have a word with ROG himself when he gets back to Munster and let him know how you feel about his reasons for picking a team outside Ireland to begin with.

Now, - you know an Irish coach you want for Munster? - name him.  Don't mention a selection of Irish coaches (that's just a list that anyone could draw up) - name the specific coach you'd like for Munster, who is Irish?

Leo Cullen is starting as Leinster's forwards coach straight after retiring and no one thinks that is very odd. ROG has more experience at coaching than he does and you don't think he is fit to be Munster's backs coach now?

I think Axel will be appointed Munster's head coach. I don't know who will be the backs coach, but bearing in mind that JJ is at the start of his career, I'd be very happy to have ROG around to guide him.

I wouldn't mind having Doug Howlett involved as well.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:59 pm

Notch wrote:
rodders wrote:
Notch wrote:
We've set the bar extremely high, too high to simply give the best jobs to coaches who haven't proven themselves at this level which is any Irish coach starting out or working in the AIL. So guys moving abroad really is the best option. I think we've got it spot on right now tbh.

Well its quite common actually for the Irish coaches to go abroad for experience - Ulster have a partnership program with Natal sharks for example but the problem is in the Union driven countries foreign coaches aren't going to end up in the top jobs. Coming up through the system is probably the best route for the Irish coaches.

Elwood would be a good fit but can't see past Foley here.    

Thats my point. That is why we excel  OK 

And the Irish clubs seems to be a stepping stone to a Super Rugby job. Cheika, Laurie Fisher & McGahan are all head coaches for Super Rugby teams.
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Post by rodders on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:Penny?  I can't really see how he was a disaster.  He came to Munster when they were down on their luck and down on their rhythm and losing influencial players.

When he came to Munster they were running slightly sideways and not quite winning titles, 2 years later they still haven't won anything and are running even more sideways. But for an O'Connell and ROG led mutiny they wouldn't be making they wouldn't have beaten Quins last season.
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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:10 pm

Axel and Dougie seem the best option...I have seen on other postings (not here) some people mentioning EOS....(hmm - although he is starting to turn things around at Garryowen)

In the past coaches like Brian Walsh and Brian Hickey down in Cork Con have had no opportunity to progress. Walsh was an excellent coach and brought through numerous players plus the fact that Con always played an expansive game with both he and Hickey at the helm. People like that are a big loss to our indigenous game.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:17 pm

Sin é wrote:

Leo Cullen is starting as Leinster's forwards coach straight after retiring and no one thinks that is very odd. ROG has more experience at coaching than he does and you don't think he is fit to be Munster's backs coach now?

I think Axel will be appointed Munster's head coach. I don't know who will be the backs coach, but bearing in mind that JJ is at the start of his career, I'd be very happy to have ROG around to guide him.

I wouldn't mind having Doug Howlett involved as well.


Again, I'm not saying ROG isn't ready for a coaching role.  Obviously he's already in one.  And if he upped ship and returned to Munster next year (ripping up his Racing contract in the process) then he'd do that and I wouldn't have a problem with it.  But even he himself wouldn't want to return as Head coach.  That's my point - the conductor- which Irish coach should be the conductor?

If Axel is your man, there you go - you'll be happy with him - I hope.  Doug, well, he's a foreigner so he doesn't apply to the "Irish coach" test we're doing here. Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:22 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Penny?  I can't really see how he was a disaster.  He came to Munster when they were down on their luck and down on their rhythm and losing influencial players.

When he came to Munster they were running slightly sideways and not quite winning titles, 2 years later they still haven't won anything and are running even more sideways. But for an O'Connell and ROG led mutiny they wouldn't be making they wouldn't have beaten Quins last season.

They were a rusty old ship that was being laughed at Rodders and you know it well Wink People still laugh at them (the farmer Professionals with studs on the wellies) but it isn't convincing any more..the laugh. The auld eejits are muck leaping over the tasty shiny outfits once again. Europe hates to see them coming  Yahoo  Penny is the coach - he deserves the credit. Not all of it but his share.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:25 pm

Former Munster player Paul Burke is head coach at Tigers having been backs coach and kicking coach over several years before that. Plenty of experience over the last 6 years and worked with Matty O'Connor over several years and if that's the style the IRFU are keen to look at he could be an option.

Shame for Munster as they seemed to be playing some really good stuff under this regime.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:25 pm

ME-109 wrote:Axel and Dougie seem the best option...I have seen on other postings (not here) some people mentioning EOS....(hmm - although he is starting to turn things around at Garryowen)

In the past coaches like Brian Walsh and Brian Hickey down in Cork Con have had no opportunity to progress. Walsh was an excellent coach and brought through numerous players plus the fact that Con always played an expansive game with both he and Hickey at the helm. People like that are a big loss to our indigenous game.

Who is responsible for that? IRFU? Munster? Not trying to be smart here. genuine question... If you see promise, or did see promise in these guys, why are they being passed over - and who pases them over?

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:32 pm

ME-109 wrote:Axel and Dougie seem the best option...I have seen on other postings (not here) some people mentioning EOS....(hmm - although he is starting to turn things around at Garryowen)

In the past coaches like Brian Walsh and Brian Hickey down in Cork Con have had no opportunity to progress. Walsh was an excellent coach and brought through numerous players plus the fact that Con always played an expansive game with both he and Hickey at the helm. People like that are a big loss to our indigenous game.

Yea, Ian Costelloe is another one who came through the ranks of AIL as well and he seems to be an excellent coach.

I don't know why anyone mentions Eddie O'Sullivan - he just isn't assistant coach material. I also think he has a very rigid 'stick to the plays' coaching philosophy whereas Penney/Mannix were encouraging a more heads up rugby of playing what is in front of you.


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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Axel and Dougie seem the best option...I have seen on other postings (not here) some people mentioning EOS....(hmm - although he is starting to turn things around at Garryowen)

In the past coaches like Brian Walsh and Brian Hickey down in Cork Con have had no opportunity to progress. Walsh was an excellent coach and brought through numerous players plus the fact that Con always played an expansive game with both he and Hickey at the helm. People like that are a big loss to our indigenous game.

Who is responsible for that?  IRFU?  Munster?  Not trying to be smart here.  genuine question... If you see promise, or did see promise in these guys, why are they being passed over - and who pases them over?

Munster branch with the IRFU/politics who knows....Hickey was assistent to DK for a couple of years 2002 - 2005 or something like that (forwards coach who did a pretty good job). Not sure why he left....Gaffney came in, not sure he got on to well with DK, Walsh was always a maverick and while the royalty (I use that word ironically) in Cork Con suffered him while they were doing well he annoyed the suits in the game constantly. Too mouthy and looking for improvements to the game at grassroots level. Was mentioned as an outsider in the Munster set up a couple of times but just never got the breaks...

All I know is that a Brian Hickey or Brian Walsh coached team played great rugby. Put it this way when Munster played the ABs and Aus recently the Cork Con lads (and the UCC ones) owe most of their grounding development to these two. At the end of the Aus game Cork Con had something like 12-14 ex players on the pitch.

I guess they werent foreign enough....who knows.

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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:40 pm

Sin é wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Axel and Dougie seem the best option...I have seen on other postings (not here) some people mentioning EOS....(hmm - although he is starting to turn things around at Garryowen)

In the past coaches like Brian Walsh and Brian Hickey down in Cork Con have had no opportunity to progress. Walsh was an excellent coach and brought through numerous players plus the fact that Con always played an expansive game with both he and Hickey at the helm. People like that are a big loss to our indigenous game.

Yea, Ian Costelloe is another one who came through the ranks of AIL as well and he seems to be an excellent coach.

I don't know why anyone mentions Eddie O'Sullivan - he just isn't assistant coach material. I also think he has a very rigid 'stick to the plays' coaching philosophy whereas Penney/Mannix were encouraging a more heads up rugby of playing what is in front of you.



Seen it on the Munsterfans forum a bit. Not as head coach mind but as a backs coach/assistant...

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Post by stevetynant on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:45 pm

The obvious answer to me is Ruddock.excellent set piece coach,doing a great job with the u20s plenty of experience what's not to like.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:47 pm

He's Welsh...and we allegedly hate them things here Wink

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Post by ME-109 on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:48 pm

stevetynant wrote:The obvious answer to me is Ruddock.excellent set piece coach,doing a great job with the u20s plenty of experience what's not to like.

Dont get me started....

I think Mike is better off sticking with the U20's. Its about his level.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:49 pm

stevetynant wrote:The obvious answer to me is Ruddock.excellent set piece coach,doing a great job with the u20s plenty of experience what's not to like.

He doesn't have a great record at club level. Worchester were relegated with him in charge.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 10:57 pm

Sin é wrote:
stevetynant wrote:The obvious answer to me is Ruddock.excellent set piece coach,doing a great job with the u20s plenty of experience what's not to like.

He doesn't have a great record at club level. Worchester were relegated with him in charge.

Hmm, if Worchester was in the Pro12, they'd still be cruising in the bottom section of the league. What were his players like? Even Sexton is realising that being in a team of wealthy superstars isn't a passport to the top.

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Post by Feckless Rogue on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 11:12 pm

I love the idea of EOS. Have people forgotten how good Ireland were under him? Of course the players were good. But they were obviously a very well drilled outfit too.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Feb 2014, 11:15 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I love the idea of EOS. Have people forgotten how good Ireland were under him? Of course the players were good. But they were obviously a very well drilled outfit too.

They were...but what went wrong?  EOS EGO?  
Players aren't prepared to be treated like school kids anymore (rightly or wrongly).  Wasn't the impression going that EOS ruled with an iron fist...no discussions?  
Modern coaches try to chaperone rather than be dictator.  Only guessing, but there were serious reasons why EOS began to fail.

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