It's done like this, boys.

by GloriousEmpire Mon 24 Feb 2014, 10:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

Thought this was interesting:

https://youtu.be/2VQJvmofgG8

1:48 - Quade Cooper and new Red's PNG pace man Aiden Toua demonstrate to Sexton et al. How to execute the cut out pass to exploit a compressed defense.

It's all about execution.

Some exciting talent on display! Astonishing finishing by contrast to some of the points left on the field in the 6N last weekend.

by Scratch Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:22 pm

ebop wrote:That is total BS, they don't have salad in South Africa!

This is true

On a 4 day hunt on the Botswana border we were fed meat for breakfast lunch and dinner

We asked for salad

We got chicken

by mystiroakey Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:24 pm

Did you eat any of your hunt?

by Cyril Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:27 pm

Hunting?

Down with this sort of thing nope

by Scratch Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:28 pm

Cyril wrote:Hunting?

Down with this sort of thing

Ah i see, you are a vegetarian then

by **Biltong** Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:39 pm

Galted wrote:
Biltong wrote:What's Salad?

It's that stuff your missus and her mates make in the kitchen while you stand around the braai with your mates trying not to fall down face-first. It's got tomatoes and green things in.

Tomatoes are for breakfast, slightly fried with salt.

by **Biltong** Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:40 pm

Scratch wrote:
ebop wrote:That is total BS, they don't have salad in South Africa!

This is true

On a 4 day hunt on the Botswana border we were fed meat for breakfast lunch and dinner

We asked for salad

We got chicken

Skinless chicken?

by Cyril Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:41 pm

Scratch wrote:
Cyril wrote:Hunting?

Down with this sort of thing

Ah i see, you are a vegetarian then

Nope.

by Scratch Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:47 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
ebop wrote:That is total BS, they don't have salad in South Africa!

This is true

On a 4 day hunt on the Botswana border we were fed meat for breakfast lunch and dinner

We asked for salad

We got chicken

Skinless chicken?

skinless=low fat=salad
QED Boer logic

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:15 pm

Look, stop derailing my thread about the relative abilities of world class fly halves with this tangential culinary irrelevance.

Now back on topic: is Quade Cooper better at throwing the wide cut out pass that Sexton? Or was England's defense putting him under too much pressure?

We've seen Cooper unlock tight defenses in the nh with mercurial strokes of composed genius such as this gem:

https://youtu.be/SgiK4VS2kXc

Or this one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5haCNXDHkQ8

I think it's an interesting topic. Does the SH really produce prodigious talent uniquely? Is it just tolerated and nurtured differently? Or is the "basketball and powderpuff" super rugby a training ground that allows players to hone such a repertoire?

by Taylorman Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:35 pm

Have always said Cooper is the master of the flat wide pass. In today's game its up there with the offload, designed to beat the one on one marking. It shifts the attack 'from' position completely, confusing the previously well set up defence expecting a one by one pass to the left or right, numbering off.

The so called weaker defences comments by NHers this time of the year are because of two things- the faster and harder grounds relative to whats available in the NH- anyone knows a faster ground means beating a tackler is easier, simply because everythings happening faster- look at the matches of the pre 70's where drainage was mostly a non event and scores were low- even in the SH, though feb matches were never on the calendar.

The other reason is there is a slightly more emphasis on attack with ball in hand than in the NH, making the number of opportunities on the faster tracks for missed tackles greater.

This is not to be seen as a weaker defence as its all relative to the attack on hand.

Its also a fallacy to suggest NH defence is 'better' than the SH because when the sides inevitably come together the NH tend to let the greater amount of tries in.

At this time of the season things are just different, no better, or worse.

by mystiroakey Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:39 pm

Taylorman- look mate., we all know SH rugby is just better.

even the blind know that. You dont have to back the SH up /. The rugby speaks for itself

However this example is very weak defending and it doesn't matter where its happened..

You just do not get tries like that v top sides.. NH or SH at international level

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:02 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
butterfingers wrote:There is some absolute beauty on show in that clip, but from a defencive coach POV there are some watch through your finger moments too.

The Cheifs try is a simple embaressment, decent take, the ball shifts to the opposite wing where 2 men are beaten by themselves with no tackle technique whatsoever and a third last ditch attempt shrugged off. Now one might say the back 3 knew where the weak defenders would be, but it is simply a big kid beating tiddlers...

Highlanders try is a good turnover and devestating counter attack, but look when he take the ball originally, 2 defenders, 1 fronts him up and the other is totally clueless and tucks in behind him, had he held the inside the ball carrier was going nowhere, very poor defencive instincts and coaching, but great finish from broken play.

The second highlanders try, nice wrap around move but the whole defencive line is flat footed and has no clue where to go, no excuse here, the line was set, they were in position and had they stepped up there was no threat whatsoever, again first up tackle missed, by the inside defender overrunning the ball carrier while the outside defender locks has tons of cover.

Reds try, clearly a worked move to flank an onrushing defence, and executed really well, however the only reason it proves so effective is the outside defender being late to the line and then falling off a simple tackle.

A lot of these try's look like defencive horror shows, but it isn't all black and white, the counter attacks ala Highlanders 2 and Cheifs are true horror shows, never a reason to overrun a ball carrier, or miss a first up tackle in the 5m channell, if there was special footork or support maybe but there wasn't, however the strike play are so intricately planned the strike runners have targetted weaker defenders, and therefore what looks like poor defending is defence manipulation by the attack.

As a defence coach I wouldn't be happy with any of those tries though...

Power, pace and guile. Not much a defensive (not the "s" not "c") can do about a guy with those skills running in space, as you guys find out every AI season.

See it's comments like this that take away from the point your trying to make, of which I partly agree with. Attacking isn't merely a suck it and see activity, it's carefully planned and run through based on opposition weaknesses, although you are missing that point. Power pace and guile have a small % to do with attacking rugby beyond U16's rugby, it's probably worth 20% of line breaks, it's a huge culmination beginning with the weeks previous analysis, the captains run, the warm up, the passers ability to execute, the hand catch, the 100 situational abilities of the defence, and another 100 things in between.

There are some impressive plays there, Coopers flat wide pass to flank the rushing defence, the reactional ability on turnover ball etc, but there is never an excuse for missing a first up tackle, especially as badly as in the 5m channell, mccaw flying inside you as cover and all you have to do is slow Freuan down a touch to get snagged.

So puff your chest as much as you like, but please come back with something more worthy than 'we rock'.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:05 pm

Lets start small, show me an example of a ball carrier running at space, and we'll take it from there?

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:29 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Taylorman- look mate., we all know SH rugby is just better.

even the blind know that. You dont have to back the SH up /. The rugby speaks for itself

However this example is very weak defending and it doesn't matter where its happened..

You just do not get tries like that v top sides.. NH or SH at international level

Yeah you do. Check Ben smith and Beauden Barrett against the springbok:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RvTRpEYuD-E

Exactly the same sort of tries. You'll say "lax defence", but this is the #1 v #2.

by mystiroakey Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:31 pm

that is just an amazing try mate..

well held off and great lines- Your super rugby exmaple is just shocking defending mate- there are two players bowled over head on

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:37 pm

GE

You do know the difference between first up tackles and backtracking defenders don't you?

Take Smiths first try, it isn't a 1 v 2 because it's simply Smith v Kirtchner, NZ have already broken the line.

Again Baretts look at the SA defence, NZ have worked the ball wide into space and have backs attacking forwards, SA defenders are outnumbered and tracking back.

Worst defencive showing there is Barett getting run over by JDV, if you tell me thats good defending...

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:37 pm

Or 1:33 and 1:40

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aPxiZbs_MCw

First some "lax defence" and then Quade pops up with that wide flat cut out pass again to go around the compressed England defence.

Barrett time and time again runs straight through a robust defense. Check out his work versus Ireland recently.

It's not about the defenders being naff, it's about the skill of the attacker.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:42 pm

Ok so at 1.33 that isn't poor defence?

5 defenders eyeing up 2 would be ball carriers, then poor Billy gets caught on his heels (If I were his coach I'd kill him) and run over Barettesque. Thats awfull from an England POV!

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:43 pm

For instance...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X9A1hr7jh2o

There you see him running through some "weak super rugby" defence, but strangely repeating it in internationals against some of the best defenders out there.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:44 pm

1.40, sublime set peice play, knowing Englands style, lining up 4 runners to 4 defenders, and executing nicely.

As a defencive coach I'd be rollocking the 9 for not harrassing the danger side and laying flat in the defencive line, wouldve stopped that at source!

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:47 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:For instance...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X9A1hr7jh2o

There you see him running through some "weak super rugby" defence, but strangely repeating it in internationals against some of the best defenders out there.

Without responses your looking quite foolish here...

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:04 pm

butterfingers wrote:1.40, sublime set peice play, knowing Englands style, lining up 4 runners to 4 defenders, and executing nicely.

As a defencive coach I'd be rollocking the 9 for not harrassing the danger side and laying flat in the defencive line, wouldve stopped that at source!

What you're doing is looking at every clip and then finding someone to blame, without appreciating exactly how the situation was engineered.

For instance before a defence hangs off a tackler quite often earlier in the game the same runner has passed/kicked/turned inside or whatever. The set up is often quite elaborate and multi-phased. You can't blame a guy for not rushing up - if he had and the a try had been scored by someone spotting the space in his channel you'd be blaming him for rushing up.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:16 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
butterfingers wrote:1.40, sublime set peice play, knowing Englands style, lining up 4 runners to 4 defenders, and executing nicely.

As a defencive coach I'd be rollocking the 9 for not harrassing the danger side and laying flat in the defencive line, wouldve stopped that at source!

What you're doing is looking at every clip and then finding someone to blame, without appreciating exactly how the situation was engineered.

For instance before a defence hangs off a tackler quite often earlier in the game the same runner has passed/kicked/turned inside or whatever. The set up is often quite elaborate and multi-phased. You can't blame a guy for not rushing up - if he had and the a try had been scored by someone spotting the space in his channel you'd be blaming him for rushing up.

Thats why every pro player is coached to read the situation and not the player, the 9 (Youngs?) hasn't just decided to drop off the scrum, it's an area of play that has been assessed and the coaches have told him in that scenario the system is going to work like that, trying to create numbers to the fringes of a loaded open side, however if he had just harassed and stopped at source the ball doesn't get out clean, quick and under no pressure.

Defending isn't gambling, you don't see what gets thrown at you then judge it won't again, or it will again, you run your systems to the letter, because it's far more dangerous to defend your man and make mistakes than defend your system and make them.

As a defence coach it's my job to dominate the game and dictate what happens on the pitch, a good attack will get around me once and get lucky once per game, but thats the cut off, anything more is failure. If my defenders miss one up tackles it's their fault, however if they are flanked, or bypassed it's mine.

make sense?

by **Notch** Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:19 pm

I'm wondering if this is not more relevant in the club section than international? As it has more to do with Super rugby than the Six Nations.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:20 pm

Notch wrote:I'm wondering if this is not more relevant in the club section than international? As it has more to do with Super rugby than the Six Nations.

OK lets relate it to George Norths try V France...

The initial break was a system failure, but the try was definately an individual failure

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:21 pm

Only because that's the direction some posters chose to take it. The original article is aimed at discussion of execution of attacking moves in the six nations. For instance weir blowing a two on one, or sexton bottling the most important pass of the game.

by butterfingers Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:26 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Only because that's the direction some posters chose to take it. The original article is aimed at discussion of execution of attacking moves in the six nations. For instance weir blowing a two on one, or sexton bottling the most important pass of the game.

Did you not use Super rugby highlights though? You see his point!

And your language isn't necesary, call a mistake a mistake, why do you have to incinuate insult in every point you make?

by **Notch** Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:32 pm

I'm going to move it though, because pretty much all of the discussion is around Super Rugby.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:35 pm

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:36 pm

butterfingers wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Only because that's the direction some posters chose to take it. The original article is aimed at discussion of execution of attacking moves in the six nations. For instance weir blowing a two on one, or sexton bottling the most important pass of the game.

Did you not use Super rugby highlights though? You see his point!

And your language isn't necesary, call a mistake a mistake, why do you have to incinuate insult in every point you make?

I used super rugby and international highlights.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:38 pm

Notch wrote:I'm wondering if this is not more relevant in the club section than international? As it has more to do with Super rugby than the Six Nations.

It's a dig at the NH national sides though and GF knows the Int section gets more footfall (more people to wind up)

by yappysnap Tue 25 Feb 2014, 11:13 pm

Some amazing tries there, every so often those kinds of games are produced here in the AP and very few people question the defense then.

Its always odd when people watch a highlights reel of the best tries and question defense, it's not highlights of the best tackles! What do they think is happening for the rest of the game??

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 7:39 am

Please don't use the word "international" here, or the thread will be moved again.

by Taylorman Wed 26 Feb 2014, 8:50 am

What gets me is this incessant insistance that sxv tries are never great, theyre because of poor defence, i mean really? How credible are those comments? wake up and smell the roses.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 8:52 am

Forgive them Taylorman, they know not what they see.

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 8:53 am

Taylor its not about super rugby or international rugby its about individual tries based on there own merit.

No one has said that super rugby defence is bad-- its just that GG's original example is poor defending.

Do you take offence at everything you possibly can?

by Taylorman Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:14 am

Na...no offence...just bordem...'no one has said super rugby defence is bad'? really? sorry...must have been my imagination...

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:22 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Super rugby is very exciting but defense is a after thought

Yep. Nobody said that.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:25 am

I don't agree it's poor defending. I believe the defence is made to look poor by the attack.

It's not like we haven't seen guys like Piutau, Dagg, SBW, Jane, Habana, Cooper, ..., Lomu, make mockeries of the home nations's defenders.

Give these guys space to move in (inevitable) and they will score tries.

I remember SCW remarking once that you know NZ will score three or four tries, the trick is to figure out how to score more points than that.

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:39 am

Taylorman wrote:Na...no offence...just bordem...'no one has said super rugby defence is bad'? really? sorry...must have been my imagination...

i dont think anyone has- people have on the other hand stated certain examples are bad defending though

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:44 am

and obviously mentioned that super rugby is very attacking orientated..

You guys know a bit about rugby. Surely you understand that at international level defending is better- there is much more balance to the teams.

Obviously the extra points for extra tries and points is one of the reasons why Super rugby is more attack orientated.,

But i still have no idea why others are getting offended by the obvious. Yes there are some shocking examples of defending. but ok just to make you feel better. NZ ARE THE BEST

by **Biltong** Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:53 am

You can find poor examples of defending in almost every game.

Defence much like attack has more than one element.

You get defensive organisation firstly, in other being able to set a defensive line in the time allowed by the attack to clear the ball from either a set piece or alternatively a breakdown.

When defensive organisation is hampered is during counter attacks, so there scrambling defence is the likely best route to defend.

There is also the setting of a secondary defensive line or alternatively scrambling defence for any type of attack, be it from counter or not.

Attacking rugby has various aspects to it as well, the most dangerous in my opinion is counter attack, however the maul when executed well is near impossible to stop without infringing.

the pace of the Super XV makes counter attack and quick ruck phase ball equally dangerous as defensive lines are often not set, a desperate tackle by a player not in position is often seen as a poor tackle, but it very much depends on the camera angle and when viewed from different angles will provide confirmation of that.

SA, OZ and NZ overall has better defence than any other team purely based on the proof when you compare records of try scoring vs other opponents.

Taking that into consideration, I think it is fair to assume that defence in the Super Rugby is better than in Europe.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:57 am

There's also the personal elements I'm looking at.

The number one is awareness. Now in the clip when the young fellow-me-lad from the highlanders gets back foot ball squirted out from the ruck, he looks up assesses his options and decided the counter attack is on. He has no support (initially) Nd could easily be isolated. Now I bet pounds that in the same situation in the 6N 9 times from 10 we'd see a kick for a corner or a pass to a lump to take the ball back into contact, or more than likely an up and under.

by quinsforever Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:59 am

Biltong wrote:
SA, OZ and NZ overall has better defence than any other team purely based on the proof when you compare records of try scoring vs other opponents.

Taking that into consideration, I think it is fair to assume that defence in the Super Rugby is better than in Europe.

i do not agree that either of these statements follow from what you wrote above.

SA, NZ and OZ have better ATTACK overall than NH teams. Which once they get a lead, tends to open the game up as the more usually cautious (ie weaker) NH teams try to play catchup, and then concede even more points.

NH rugby, especially in the Aviva and top14, is a very bruising, defensively focused type of rugby. both Aviva and top14 are lower scoring competitions than the S15 for what its worth.

by quinsforever Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:01 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:There's also the personal elements I'm looking at.

The number one is awareness. Now in the clip when the young fellow-me-lad from the highlanders gets back foot ball squirted out from the ruck, he looks up assesses his options and decided the counter attack is on. He has no support (initially) Nd could easily be isolated. Now I bet pounds that in the same situation in the 6N 9 times from 10 we'd see a kick for a corner or a pass to a lump to take the ball back into contact, or more than likely an up and under.

you cant really compare S15 with 6N. completely different risk/reward profile for individual decision-making for a start.

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:22 am

Biltong wrote:You can find poor examples of defending in almost every game.

Defence much like attack has more than one element.

You get defensive organisation firstly, in other being able to set a defensive line in the time allowed by the attack to clear the ball from either a set piece or alternatively a breakdown.

When defensive organisation is hampered is during counter attacks, so there scrambling defence is the likely best route to defend.

There is also the setting of a secondary defensive line or alternatively scrambling defence for any type of attack, be it from counter or not.

Attacking rugby has various aspects to it as well, the most dangerous in my opinion is counter attack, however the maul when executed well is near impossible to stop without infringing.

the pace of the Super XV makes counter attack and quick ruck phase ball equally dangerous as defensive lines are often not set, a desperate tackle by a player not in position is often seen as a poor tackle, but it very much depends on the camera angle and when viewed from different angles will provide confirmation of that.

SA, OZ and NZ overall has better defence than any other team purely based on the proof when you compare records of try scoring vs other opponents.

Taking that into consideration, I think it is fair to assume that defence in the Super Rugby is better than in Europe.

OZ - not sure mate.

SA and NZ yes but why.

SA because they are just defensive beasts.. NZ because they have the majority of terriotory

There are off course two ways to defend.. And the best way is not to let the opposition have territory(territory is more key to possession in rugby)

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:16 am

Please can you guys stop talking about international competitions - this thread is in the club forum Laugh

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:18 am

However, it's not a point for debate that The SANZAR teams have better defence than the NH counterparts. Theirs is just statistical fact shown by the number of tries conceded.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:20 am

quinsforever wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:There's also the personal elements I'm looking at.

The number one is awareness. Now in the clip when the young fellow-me-lad from the highlanders gets back foot ball squirted out from the ruck, he looks up assesses his options and decided the counter attack is on. He has no support (initially) Nd could easily be isolated. Now I bet pounds that in the same situation in the 6N 9 times from 10 we'd see a kick for a corner or a pass to a lump to take the ball back into contact, or more than likely an up and under.
you cant really compare S15 with 6N. completely different risk/reward profile for individual decision-making for a start.

Only in that super rugby offers bonus points for scoring 4+ tries.

I'm not sure poor awareness and lack of execution skills is a product of a risk curve, it's a product of poor training and fear.

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:50 am

All i know is that I would be more confident of England scoring a try v Aus than i would a highly drilled defensive ireland.

I would also expect the odd try v NZ due to there expansive game.. I just dont expect to score more.

BUt when it comes to SA that's a different matter entirely.

Sorry am I going to international again Wink

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