Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Rugby players are too fat to catch us Davie.

[GunsGerms]

Didn't someone die in Ireland recently due to the abortion laws? They asked for an abortion, but was not provided. I may be wrong, but i recall hearing it.

Yes that is true. Savita Halipanivar but that was due to the incompetence of the doctors rather than legislation to protect her as far as I know.

[Diggers]

Irresponsible isn't one person being careless, irresponsible is legislation that would bring thousands of unwanted kids into the world.

Its the reasons why she doesnt want the child that I dont understand. Seems selfish to me.

I would be in favour of abortions for junkies for example because facilitating them have kids is just perpetuating a big societal problem. There is also some evidence that crime rates drop in countries where abortion has been introduced for similar reasons.

Women who have been raped or whose lives are in danger because of their pregnancy, there are lots of reasons to legislate for it but I just dont think if should be allowed for any reason whatsoever. Thats my opinion I dont think it is as black and white as everyone else seems to think on this thread.

I think the wording here is an issue...to me its not a child, its an embryo. If someone doesn't want tp have a child then to me it is utterly wrong to force them into having a child. Its like, "you made a mistake..you can live with consequences and you have to bring up a child that you didn't want." Seriously, where is the logic in that scenario? Where is the winner in that situation?

[GunsGerms]

GG, It's legislation based on religious beliefs. It's medieval and bigoted. Who are we to judge what other people can do with their own body?

If you really are religious then I guess you can wait to have your judgement till you face your creator? No need to have terrestrial legislation or impose your religious beleifs on others. When you die you can face God. When you're alive you can repent. Leave the rest of us alone please.

Every legal system has antiquated laws. The Irish constitution was amended over 40 years ago to remove religious references.

Abortion isnt necessarly a religious issue. Who am I imposing religious belief on? I could be a buddist for all you know. I find your post really strange if Im honest. Did you think it through?

[super_realist]

It might be claimed that it is not religious. However it's not a stretch to conceive that such a law is a product of being a religious society in cultural terms.

America is a secular state, but many things are done there as a response to much of the population being religious despite their protestations they keep church and state separate.

[pedro]

Turkey is also a secular state. So is America. Yet legislation is still heavily influenced by religion.

[McLaren]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

[GunsGerms]

It might be claimed that it is not religious. However it's not a stretch to conceive that such a law is a product of being a religious society in cultural terms.

America is a secular state, but many things are done there as a response to much of the population being religious despite their protestations they keep church and state separate.

Well then it might surprise to learn that in Ireland the law against abortions was actually derived from UK law when Ireland was part of the UK. At independence from the UK in 1922, the Offences against the Person Act 1861 remained in force, maintaining all abortions to be illegal.

[pedro]

GG, It's legislation based on religious beliefs. It's medieval and bigoted. Who are we to judge what other people can do with their own body?

If you really are religious then I guess you can wait to have your judgement till you face your creator? No need to have terrestrial legislation or impose your religious beleifs on others. When you die you can face God. When you're alive you can repent. Leave the rest of us alone please.

Every legal system has antiquated laws. The Irish constitution was amended over 40 years ago to remove religious references.

Abortion isnt necessarly a religious issue. Who am I imposing religious belief on? I find your post really strange if Im honest. Did you think it through?

By saying that abortion should be conditional and by justifying the Irish system. Can think of no other reasons.

[Diggers]

It might be claimed that it is not religious. However it's not a stretch to conceive that such a law is a product of being a religious society in cultural terms.

America is a secular state, but many things are done there as a response to much of the population being religious despite their protestations they keep church and state separate.

Well then it might surprise to learn that in Ireland the law against abortions was actually derived from UK law when Ireland was part of the UK. At independence from the UK in 1922, the Offences against the Person Act 1861 remained in force, maintaining all abortions to be illegal.

And this is commendable in what way? All it shows is a failure to move forward and change with compassion. Its quite possible not a religious view, but its certainly a moral view, the imposition of an outdated set of moral values onto an individual.

[GunsGerms]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

I think the debate as to at what point an embryo is considered to be life isnt really a religious debate at all but a scientific one.

Can I just point out once again that I didnt claim that abortions are right or wrong but that it isnt as black and white to me as it seems to be to everyone else.

[super_realist]

It might be claimed that it is not religious. However it's not a stretch to conceive that such a law is a product of being a religious society in cultural terms.

America is a secular state, but many things are done there as a response to much of the population being religious despite their protestations they keep church and state separate.

Well then it might surprise to learn that in Ireland the law against abortions was actually derived from UK law when Ireland was part of the UK. At independence from the UK in 1922, the Offences against the Person Act 1861 remained in force, maintaining all abortions to be illegal.

Yes, but the UK decided the law was outdated and that people should have autonomy over their own bodies.

It isn't my problem if the Irish government doesn't have respect for their own citizens to decide what to do with their own bodies and base their laws on the basis of a 1922 law. Laws can be changed.

We used to think slavery was ok and legal too, does it make it right?

[GunsGerms]

It might be claimed that it is not religious. However it's not a stretch to conceive that such a law is a product of being a religious society in cultural terms.

America is a secular state, but many things are done there as a response to much of the population being religious despite their protestations they keep church and state separate.

Well then it might surprise to learn that in Ireland the law against abortions was actually derived from UK law when Ireland was part of the UK. At independence from the UK in 1922, the Offences against the Person Act 1861 remained in force, maintaining all abortions to be illegal.

And this is commendable in what way? All it shows is a failure to move forward and change with compassion. Its quite possible not a religious view, but its certainly a moral view, the imposition of an outdated set of moral values onto an individual.

I didnt say it was commendable. All I have said is I dont know what the answer is re abortion.

[super_realist]

Well, it's pretty obvious that the answer isn't to allow other people to have a legal right to deny autonomy to their own body.

[pedro]

We can all agree that Europe 100 or 200 years ago was a different place. Women couldn't vote as well. And even some golf clubs only allowed male members. Would you belive that? Luckily some moved on.

[Diggers]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

I think the debate as to at what point an embryo is considered to be life isnt really a religious debate at all but a scientific one.

Can I just point out once again that I didnt claim that abortions are right or wrong but that it isnt as black and white to me as it seems to be to everyone else.

Fair enough but you haven't really given me anything like a good reason as to why they might be right.

[McLaren]

Guns

I have to admit that I do not know what the basis is for the current cut off in terms of being able to have an abortion performed.  As you say, I hope it is based on scientific grounds.  

What makes the issue in general not "black and white" for you?

[GunsGerms]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

Without specifically referring to abortion I actually dont think it is appropriate for a government to always give its citizens the power to make all their decisions when there is evidence that citizens will out of ignorance make decisions that are contrary to their best interests.

There is an excellent book on governmental policy making called "Nudge" that explores such dillemas. Well worth a read.

[kwinigolfer]

American legislation may still be heavily influenced by religion.

But the bigger influence is the demonisation of those who dare to speak out against that religious influence.

If you see what I'm trying to say!

[super_realist]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

Without specifically referring to abortion I actually dont think it is appropriate for a government to always give its citizens the power to make all their decisions when there is evidence that citizens will out of ignorance make decisions that are contrary to their best interests.

There is an excellent book on governmental policy making called "Nudge" that explores such dillemas. Well worth a read.

But then your are letting the government decide that an embryo has more rights than the individual.

[McLaren]

Gun

Not sure what the book is about, but if it is along the lines of providing services that benefit everyone I am sure it has some merit. For example, given the choice would the UK public choose to keep the NHS or move to an insurance model for healthcare. I hope we are never given the choice.

But, how could this argument extend to an abortion where an individual is making a choice which effects no one else? Should a women ever be in a position where someone else decides if they are to remain pregnant?

[GunsGerms]

Guns

I have to admit that I do not know what the basis is for the current cut off in terms of being able to have an abortion performed.  As you say, I hope it is based on scientific grounds.  

What makes the issue in general not "black and white" for you?

Its just such a complicated issue. There are so many things to consider if you want to legislate for 100% freedom of choice of re abortion. You open up the possibility of abuse of the law where women could use abortion as a form of contraception for example.

The biggest difficulty for me however, is the pro life debate and at what point an embryo should be considered a human life. I dont have the answer to this question and therefore I find abortion a very very complicated issue.

For me it doesnt have anything to do with religion.

[GunsGerms]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

Without specifically referring to abortion I actually dont think it is appropriate for a government to always give its citizens the power to make all their decisions when there is evidence that citizens will out of ignorance make decisions that are contrary to their best interests.

There is an excellent book on governmental policy making called "Nudge" that explores such dillemas. Well worth a read.

But then your are letting the government decide that an embryo has more rights than the individual.

No Im not. I said I wasnt referring specifically to abortion in that comment. I do not know what the law should be re abortion that is all I have ever said. I dont understand how people can be so certain it is a good thing.

[McLaren]

Kwini

Too true, I have heard stories of teachers loosing jobs, in areas where the religious right are a strong presence, if they choose to teach evolution in the science classroom.

[super_realist]

Guns

I have to admit that I do not know what the basis is for the current cut off in terms of being able to have an abortion performed.  As you say, I hope it is based on scientific grounds.  

What makes the issue in general not "black and white" for you?

Its just such a complicated issue. There are so many things to consider if you want to legislate for 100% freedom of choice of re abortion. You open up the possibility of abuse of the law where women could use abortion as a form of contraception for example.

The biggest difficulty for me however, is the pro life debate and at what point an embryo should be considered a human life. I dont have the answer to this question and therefore I find abortion a very very complicated issue.

Guns, I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Have you any idea how horrible and harrowing it is for a woman to have an abortion? TO claim people would use it as a form of contraception is perfectly ignorant.

To make something illegal on that basis would be like outlwaing alcohol on the basis that a few people would drink themselves to death if it's freely available.

As Mac says, how can a governement decide whether someone should remain pregnant.

[GunsGerms]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

I think the debate as to at what point an embryo is considered to be life isnt really a religious debate at all but a scientific one.

Can I just point out once again that I didnt claim that abortions are right or wrong but that it isnt as black and white to me as it seems to be to everyone else.

Fair enough but you haven't really given me anything like a good reason as to why they might be right.

Sorry I dont understand the question. Why who is right?

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
There are very important cases coming up through the Court system where certain employers, some of them quite large, are suing for the right to refuse to pay employees' health care premiums for contraception, blood transfusions, you name it, they're against it.

[McLaren]

Gun

It has been hypothesized, with some evidence to follow that abortion is linked to lower crime rates. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

[McLaren]

Mac,
There are very important cases coming up through the Court system where certain employers, some of them quite large, are suing for the right to refuse to pay employees' health care premiums for contraception, blood transfusions, you name it, they're against it.

How do you cope living in among that kind of madness?

[GunsGerms]

Yes, but the UK decided the law was outdated and that people should have autonomy over their own bodies.

It isn't my problem if the Irish government doesn't have respect for their own citizens to decide what to do with their own bodies and base their laws on the basis of a 1922 law. Laws can be changed.

We used to think slavery was ok and legal too, does it make it right?

The citizens of Ireland could decide in a referendum and may have already I cant remember.

No slavery is quite categorically wrong but the abortion debate for me is a much more complicated one.

[super_realist]

Unlikely, given that it would not go along with their religious beliefs.

[GunsGerms]

Gun

It has been hypothesized, with some evidence to follow that abortion is linked to lower crime rates. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

I know Mac. I actually mentioned that already in a previous post. The book "Freakanomics" discusses this phenomonen quite nicely. Its very interesting. I also mentioned that I would be in favour of enforced abortions for junkies. Im guessing a lot of people here who are so pro choice would not agree with me on that one.

[GunsGerms]

Unlikely, given that it would not go along with their religious beliefs.

You dont know as much about Ireland as you think you do Super.

UK law has religious infulences too. Didnt Henry the 8th change the laws or his religion etc. so he could marry more women and kill them? Cant quite remember the story there.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
It's very difficult!
All I can say is that I make it pretty well known that such behaviour/culture is the primary reason I will never become a US citizen.
Fortunately, politics here is pretty normal compared to most other States.

[Diggers]

Gun

If it is not religion that makes you question someones right to make a choice about whether or not to have a child then what is it?

I think the debate as to at what point an embryo is considered to be life isnt really a religious debate at all but a scientific one.

Can I just point out once again that I didnt claim that abortions are right or wrong but that it isnt as black and white to me as it seems to be to everyone else.

Fair enough but you haven't really given me anything like a good reason as to why they might be right.

Sorry I dont understand the question. Why who is right?

Not who, they. They being your reasons as to why abortion might be right.

[MustPuttBetter]

Mac,
There are very important cases coming up through the Court system where certain employers, some of them quite large, are suing for the right to refuse to pay employees' health care premiums for contraception, blood transfusions, you name it, they're against it.

How do you cope living in among that kind of madness?

You're living amongst that kind of madness in the UK as well Mac

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/new-laws-are-needed-to-prevent-creationism-indoctrination-in-independent-schools-says-top-science-educator-9067488.html

Thankfully the Government have now decided to force these schools to teach scientifically backed principles but it is long overdue

[McLaren]

mustputt

Thankfully we have it lot better than kwini, but you are right that we are seemingly taking a step backwards these days in terms of moving towards a secular state.

[GunsGerms]

Guns

I have to admit that I do not know what the basis is for the current cut off in terms of being able to have an abortion performed.  As you say, I hope it is based on scientific grounds.  

What makes the issue in general not "black and white" for you?

Its just such a complicated issue. There are so many things to consider if you want to legislate for 100% freedom of choice of re abortion. You open up the possibility of abuse of the law where women could use abortion as a form of contraception for example.

The biggest difficulty for me however, is the pro life debate and at what point an embryo should be considered a human life. I dont have the answer to this question and therefore I find abortion a very very complicated issue.

Guns, I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Have you any idea how horrible and harrowing it is for a woman to have an abortion? TO claim people would use it as a form of contraception is perfectly ignorant.

To make something illegal on that basis would be like outlwaing alcohol on the basis that a few people would drink themselves to death if it's freely available.

As Mac says, how can a governement decide whether someone should remain pregnant.

I didnt make that claim I said it was a consideration when legislating for abortion just like there are many considerations.

Once again I dont have the answers but at least Im willing to admit I dont know it all when you seem to have convinced yourself that you know everything there is to know about abortion at therefore are convinced the laws in the UK are flawless re abortion.

[super_realist]

Unlikely, given that it would not go along with their religious beliefs.

You dont know as much about Ireland as you think you do Super.

UK law has religious infulences too. Didnt Henry the 8th change the laws or his religion etc. so he could marry more women and kill them? Cant quite remember the story there.

For Christs sake Guns, Yes, we have a religious heritage, it doesn't stop us from changing the laws once we realise they don't work anymore.

Henry the 8th? Bloody hell. Did you have to trawl that far back to make a point?

[beninho]

I do believe there should be a cut off date. I dint know the current date though but would guess it it's been decided by the professionals.

[GunsGerms]

For Christs sake Guns, Yes, we have a religious heritage, it doesn't stop us from changing the laws once we realise they don't work anymore.

Henry the 8th? Bloody hell. Did you have to trawl that far back to make a point?

Thought you could do with some light comic relief. Surely you didnt think I was serious there? You clearly do have religious influences if you say "for christ sake"

[GunsGerms]

I do believe there should be a cut off date. I dint know the current date though but would guess it it's been decided by the professionals.

In the UK there is one alright.

[McLaren]

Gun

I know very little about developmental biology and would not claim to know "everything there is to know about abortion", but I have no issue with accepting that under current UK law a fetus is nowhere near a functioning baby at the point at which you can have an abortion.


If it is not the development of the fetus or its human'ness at the time of the abortion what other factors do you think are complicated?

[super_realist]

For Christs sake Guns, Yes, we have a religious heritage, it doesn't stop us from changing the laws once we realise they don't work anymore.

Henry the 8th? Bloody hell. Did you have to trawl that far back to make a point?

Thought you could do with some light comic relief. Surely you didnt think I was serious there? You clearly do have religious influences if you say "for christ sake"

It was a deliberate rebuke, just incase it "offended" someone.

[super_realist]

I do believe there should be a cut off date. I dint know the current date though but would guess it it's been decided by the professionals.

In the UK there is one alright.

24 weeks I think, after that it's a coathanger and a bottle of gin

[GunsGerms]

Gun

I know very little about developmental biology and would not claim to know "everything there is to know about abortion", but I have no issue with accepting that under current UK law a fetus is nowhere near a functioning baby at the point at which you can have an abortion.  


If it is not the development of the fetus or its human'ness at the time of the abortion what other factors do you think are complicated?

Mac we could be here all day if we really get into this one. Part of it is I dont know enough about the issue to understand what the right process should be. Maybe ask Super as he seems to know everything you need to know about it.

[GunsGerms]

I do believe there should be a cut off date. I dint know the current date though but would guess it it's been decided by the professionals.

In the UK there is one alright.

24 weeks I think, after that it's a coathanger and a bottle of gin

Well we use a coat hanger and a hoover over here and you call us out dated.

[McLaren]

Gun

Are you saying you don't understand the conflict between the mothers rights and those of her unborn child/fetus/embryo?

[beninho]

24 weeks. That seems quite far in, my wife is 26/27 weeks at moment and baby has been moving for a fair few weeks. I would assume though that if you feel the need to abort your mind will have been made up before 24 weeks though.

[Davie]

Can someone please mention Hitler in this conversation then we can invoke Godwin's Law and move on? :P

[Diggers]

24 weeks. That seems quite far in, my wife is 26/27 weeks at moment and baby has been moving for a fair few weeks. I would assume though that if you feel the need to abort your mind will have been made up before 24 weeks though.

Congrats Ben, that's number 2 isn't it. The second one is a real game changer.

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