Aviva Premiership - Round 19

First topic message reminder :

Table:

Pos	Team	__Pld__	__Won__	_Drawn_	_Lost_	__For__	_Against_	__TF__	__TA__	__TBP__	__LBP__	__Pts__
1	Saracens	18	16	0	2	507	260	53	27	8	0	72
2	Northampton Saints	18	14	1	3	451	269	52	22	5	2	65
3	Leicester Tigers	18	12	2	4	422	342	43	30	4	2	58
4	Bath Rugby	18	12	1	5	410	313	40	32	3	2	55
5	Sale Sharks	18	11	0	7	323	296	31	25	2	5	51
6	Harlequins	18	11	0	7	337	288	32	26	2	3	49
7	London Wasps	18	7	0	11	341	364	33	33	2	9	39
8	Gloucester Rugby	18	7	0	11	328	425	33	46	2	6	36
9	Exeter Chiefs	18	7	0	11	324	349	28	34	1	6	35
10	London Irish	18	5	0	13	283	390	24	37	0	6	26
11	Newcastle Falcons	18	3	0	15	200	414	15	45	1	6	19
12	Worcester Warriors	18	1	0	17	224	440	18	45	0	6	10

Fixtures:

Fri 11th Apr 14
19:45 Sale Sharks  v   Harlequins BT Sport

Sat 12th Apr 14
15:00 Leicester Tigers  v   London Wasps
15:00        Worcester Warriors  v   Exeter Chiefs
15:15 Gloucester Rugby  v   Bath Rugby BT Sport

Sun 13th Apr 14
14:00 Saracens  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
15:00 London Irish  v   Newcastle Falcons

Probably not GF, I read an interview with him yesterday with him stating if fit he'll go. If not SL is sending him to the US for sprint training.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm kind of with Beshocked on Nowell, I think he's a talent but not good enough for Int rugby yet. He offers very little threat and makes mistakes.

I'd be happy with Ashton, Wade or Yarde on the right wing.

 
Well, Lancaster obviously thinks differently regarding his ability - as has been said, he was selected as a stop gap for injured players and in that respect, did well enough. I don't think he did any real harm to his chances of becoming a more permament fixture though.
 
Made mistakes? Well run to the hills Ma Parker! Of course he did - name one, just one player who hasn't made mistakes at international level, particulraly at Nowell's age and level of experience. Answers on a postcard.
 
He didn't set the world alight with pitch length runs, but carried adequately and set up what was nearly the try of the tournament.

I'm talking key mistakes. I was nervous watching him every game, things seemed to happen around him and not in a good way (dropped catches, missed tackles, poor choices).

He was selected as a "safe option" yet he wasn't overly safe. I'd prefer a wing like Ashton who slips off the odd tackle but offers a threat when he gets the ball. Nowell offers very little in attack imo.

Sprint training...very interesting.

Yeah i will defend young Nowell. He made the odd mistake...but blaming the bounce of the ball in the france game as his mistake is not fair.

He never lost heart, he showed good hands. He came looking for work, was good in defence.

I would say i see him more as a FB...and in the halfpenny mould. I would rather have Wade and Yarde in there....but he wasnt bad.

Jimpy only need to look at Nowell's lack of tries to see how overrated he is. He is overrated because some people actually believe he deserved an England call up.

Ashton is the top try scorer in the HC. He's having a pretty good season. I would have picked most EQ wingers in the AP over Nowell.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm talking key mistakes. I was nervous watching him every game, things seemed to happen around him and not in a good way (dropped catches, missed tackles, poor choices).

He was selected as a "safe option" yet he wasn't overly safe. I'd prefer a wing like Ashton who slips off the odd tackle but offers a threat when he gets the ball. Nowell offers very little in attack imo.

Fair enough, mind you, I get nervous watching Ashton, you never know when he's going to pull someone's hair, and he's certainly bound to drop the ball during one of his splash dives sooner or later. Don't think Ashton has been particularly threatening of late, certainly not relative to his early career form anyway.

I expect Nowell will struggle to keep his place when the incumbents return, who, by the way, aren't much more experienced (with the exception of Ashton of course). I certainly don't think Nowell disgraced himself, he ought to be given more chances to improve.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sprint training...very interesting.

Yeah i will defend young Nowell. He made the odd mistake...but blaming the bounce of the ball in the france game as his mistake is not fair.

He never lost heart, he showed good hands. He came looking for work, was good in defence.

I would say i see him more as a FB...and in the halfpenny mould. I would rather have Wade and Yarde in there....but he wasnt bad.

He is a full back for Chiefs isn't he?

beshocked wrote:Jimpy only need to look at Nowell's lack of tries to see how overrated he is. He is overrated because some people actually believe he deserved an England call up.

Ashton is the top try scorer in the HC. He's having a pretty good season. I would have picked most EQ wingers in the AP over Nowell.

And now you're just being silly

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sprint training...very interesting.

Yeah i will defend young Nowell. He made the odd mistake...but blaming the bounce of the ball in the france game as his mistake is not fair.

He never lost heart, he showed good hands. He came looking for work, was good in defence.

I would say i see him more as a FB...and in the halfpenny mould. I would rather have Wade and Yarde in there....but he wasnt bad.

He is a full back for Chiefs isn't he?

No, Luke Arscott is the incumbent FB, with Phil Dollman as principal back-up, altho I expect Nowell to gravtitate that way before too long

beshocked wrote:Jimpy only need to look at Nowell's lack of tries to see how overrated he is. He is overrated because some people actually believe he deserved an England call up.

Ashton is the top try scorer in the HC. He's having a pretty good season. I would have picked most EQ wingers in the AP over Nowell.

 
Of course you would, because you don't like Nowell. If that's what you really think, you're seriously deluded.
 
And, at the risk of repeating myself, nobody I believe, has 'over-rated' Nowell. Again, all anybody has ever said is that as a stop gap player, he did well enough, and that he has potential.

JImpy, i wasnt sure...i think he's been moved between the two hasnt he. ASBO can confirm of course.

Yeah i dont think he's that bad Beshocked.

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm talking key mistakes. I was nervous watching him every game, things seemed to happen around him and not in a good way (dropped catches, missed tackles, poor choices).

He was selected as a "safe option" yet he wasn't overly safe. I'd prefer a wing like Ashton who slips off the odd tackle but offers a threat when he gets the ball. Nowell offers very little in attack imo.

Fair enough, mind you, I get nervous watching Ashton, you never know when he's going to pull someone's hair, and he's certainly bound to drop the ball during one of his splash dives sooner or later. Don't think Ashton has been particularly threatening of late, certainly not relative to his early career form anyway.

I expect Nowell will struggle to keep his place when the incumbents return, who, by the way, aren't much more experienced (with the exception of Ashton of course). I certainly don't think Nowell disgraced himself, he ought to be given more chances to improve.

I think Ashton has been excellent this season, his try against Ulster was top draw, not many English wings would have finished it.

I don't mind the splash, he doesn't drop it and shouldn't be judged for it till he actually does imo.

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm talking key mistakes. I was nervous watching him every game, things seemed to happen around him and not in a good way (dropped catches, missed tackles, poor choices).

He was selected as a "safe option" yet he wasn't overly safe. I'd prefer a wing like Ashton who slips off the odd tackle but offers a threat when he gets the ball. Nowell offers very little in attack imo.

Fair enough, mind you, I get nervous watching Ashton, you never know when he's going to pull someone's hair, and he's certainly bound to drop the ball during one of his splash dives sooner or later. Don't think Ashton has been particularly threatening of late, certainly not relative to his early career form anyway.

I expect Nowell will struggle to keep his place when the incumbents return, who, by the way, aren't much more experienced (with the exception of Ashton of course). I certainly don't think Nowell disgraced himself, he ought to be given more chances to improve.

I think Ashton has been excellent this season, his try against Ulster was top draw, not many English wings would have finished it.

I don't mind the splash, he doesn't drop it and shouldn't be judged for it till he actually does imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm talking key mistakes. I was nervous watching him every game, things seemed to happen around him and not in a good way (dropped catches, missed tackles, poor choices).

He was selected as a "safe option" yet he wasn't overly safe. I'd prefer a wing like Ashton who slips off the odd tackle but offers a threat when he gets the ball. Nowell offers very little in attack imo.

Fair enough, mind you, I get nervous watching Ashton, you never know when he's going to pull someone's hair, and he's certainly bound to drop the ball during one of his splash dives sooner or later. Don't think Ashton has been particularly threatening of late, certainly not relative to his early career form anyway.

I expect Nowell will struggle to keep his place when the incumbents return, who, by the way, aren't much more experienced (with the exception of Ashton of course). I certainly don't think Nowell disgraced himself, he ought to be given more chances to improve.

I think Ashton has been excellent this season, his try against Ulster was top draw, not many English wings would have finished it.

I don't mind the splash, he hasn't dropped it yet and should be stropped from doing it before he actually does imo.

Fixed that.

He's been doing it for a fair while now and he's never looked close to dropping it, I don't see the issue.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's been doing it for a fair while now and he's never looked close to dropping it, I don't see the issue.

You might when he does it in the closing GS deciding match of next year's 6N. It'll be painfully clear then (I would hope).

Or when Manu drops it when he does his one handed touch down?

If and when Ashton drops it I'll be on his case, until then it's a complete non-issue.

He scores tries for fun which is not the case with our current options.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Or when Manu drops it when he does his one handed touch down?

If and when Ashton drops it I'll be on his case, until then it's a complete non-issue.

He scores tries for fun which is not the case with our current options.

That's just the point though isn't it - Ashton isn't really a current option...

Moot point. Ashton will tour i'm sure, he's a good player (when he wants to be), but the crux of the debate is that Nowell isn't really as bad as has been suggested and that 'any other winger in the AP should have been selected ahead of him....

Well personally i think Ashton suffered a major slump with England...but that wasnt helped with the complete lack of service they were receiving.

The wingers still arent receiveing a huge amount of ball but i do think Ashton would look better with the improved attack.

But ill repeat, i dont think Nowell is as bad as some think.

Ashton looked to me to be suffering from two problems in his recent games in an England shirt: firstly, his defensive positioning was off and was leading to tries being conceded; secondly, he'd lost faith in his own ability. There were several times in his last few matches where I was desperate for him to back himself and just go for it, and instead he checked and passed to a player who was in no better position.

Lack of tries wasn't particularly an issue because England weren't scoring many tries anyway. He seems to have regained his confidence with Sarries, and England have got their backline working far better. What I still worry about (and I worry about it with Wade as well) is whether he's sorted out his defence.

Defence is key at international level. Look at the 2003 RWC squad: Lewsey, Robinson and Cohen was a nicely balanced combination in attack, but Lewsey and Cohen in particular were absolutely solid in defence.

Nowell got bumped off a couple of tackles, but he made a lot of good ones and more importantly he was rarely out of position. England's coaches count missed tackles differently from Opta - if you slow the player down enough for someone else to complete the tackle, it's not a miss. Nowell's dropped ko in Paris gave France the position that led to their opening try, but his tackling didn't, as far as I can recall, lead directly to a try on any occasion. Other than that, he made some good yards (and had that Brown-like quality of not going down in the tackle), and ran some decent support lines that went unrewarded until the last game. Didn't set the world on fire, but under the circumstances he did what was needed of him.

Poorfour wrote:

Nowell got bumped off a couple of tackles, but he made a lot of good ones and more importantly he was rarely out of position. England's coaches count missed tackles differently from Opta - if you slow the player down enough for someone else to complete the tackle, it's not a miss. Nowell's dropped ko in Paris gave France the position that led to their opening try, but his tackling didn't, as far as I can recall, lead directly to a try on any occasion. Other than that, he made some good yards (and had that Brown-like quality of not going down in the tackle), and ran some decent support lines that went unrewarded until the last game. Didn't set the world on fire, but under the circumstances he did what was needed of him.

+1

The lad did fine.

-1

I thought he struggled

Sgt_Pooly wrote:-1

I thought he struggled

 
Very much like your argument really...
 
Inexperieinced he is, but he didn't 'struggle' as has been logically and cognitively demonstrated.

Harry Hill time....


FFFIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHHTTTTTTT   

Completely disagree, you do like your little personal digs Jimpy. Let's keep it topic related eh.

I thought he struggled, I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Completely disagree, you do like your little personal digs Jimpy. Let's keep it topic related eh.

I thought he struggled, I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours.

Of course. However, it is demonstrable that Nowell didn't struggle. Of course, you may have a differing opinion as to what defines the word 'struggle', so be it.

The anti-Nowell camp's argument seems to hinge on the fact that Nowell is inexperieinced and made a few mistakes. I'll ask again, which new cap hasn't? It whiffs a bit of an Aston 'love in'...

Nonetheless, the likelihood is that Nowell will tour with England again, so i'm afraid you're going to have to put up with him for now. If Ashton can show his international form has recovered sufficiently, he too should tour and rightly so. And I would say good luck to him.

I suspect the wings for the tour will be:
Ashton, May. Nowell, Yarde

May is the one who infuriates me. He needs to be put in a Rowntree headlock and told...RUN STRAIGHT and BACK YOURSELF when in open space!

Keep the side ways malarky to a minimum!! unless there is simply no space out wide and there are potential gaps in the middle.

i.e Show more intelligence!!

I've already stated why I thought Nowell struggled, it's not massively controversial to suggest he did. He offered little in attack and made key errors as well as slipping off numerous tackles.

His decision making was also poor, I'm sure he'll improve but as a snap shot I wasn't impressed at all.

It's nothing to do with Ashton actually, I'd prefer numerous other options including Wade, Watson, Ashton.

On a side note I don't think Nowell will be a long term fixture in the squad, I just don't think he has the quality required to be an Int back 3 player.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I suspect the wings for the tour will be:
Ashton, May. Nowell, Yarde

May is the one who infuriates me. He needs to be put in a Rowntree headlock and told...RUN STRAIGHT and BACK YOURSELF when in open space!

Keep the side ways malarky to a minimum!! unless there is simply no space out wide and there are potential gaps in the middle.

i.e Show more intelligence!!

I noticed at the weekend, when Glaws players weren't clotheslining or punching opposition players, that it wasn't just May running laterally, it seems to be a 'Glaw's thing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've already stated why I thought Nowell struggled, it's not massively controversial to suggest he did. He offered little in attack and made key errors as well as slipping off numerous tackles.

His decision making was also poor, I'm sure he'll improve but as a snap shot I wasn't impressed at all.

It's nothing to do with Ashton actually, I'd prefer numerous other options including Wade, Watson, Ashton.

On a side note I don't think Nowell will be a long term fixture in the squad, I just don't think he has the quality required to be an Int back 3 player.

  

Oppo ~ Tackles made/missed ~ Metres run ~ Defenders beaten

Fra ~ 10/1 ~ 81 ~ 3
Sco ~ 3/0 ~ 26 ~ 3
Ire ~ 0/0 ~ 41 ~ 3
Wal ~ 2/3 ~ 103 ~ 5
Fra ~ 6/0 ~ 41 ~ 1

=> "Struggled"

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've already stated why I thought Nowell struggled, it's not massively controversial to suggest he did. He offered little in attack and made key errors as well as slipping off numerous tackles.
His decision making was also poor, I'm sure he'll improve but as a snap shot I wasn't impressed at all.

It's nothing to do with Ashton actually, I'd prefer numerous other options including Wade, Watson, Ashton.

On a side note I don't think Nowell will be a long term fixture in the squad, I just don't think he has the quality required to be an Int back 3 player.

 
I think you may be wrong if statistics are to be believed.
 
Because Wade and co have a turn of pace, the percepton is that they offer more in attack than somebody like Nowell, who isn't as quick, but is actually a quite effective player.

Ah right interesting.

Now i know that is part of Mays game...going on mazy runs. Thats fine. Its just chosing when to do it...and when to take the contact.

There was once in the 6n he had an open run (from some way out) and he should have just pinned his ears back and gone for it....and he didnt. I was fuming.

But May is one i think has a lot to offer.

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've already stated why I thought Nowell struggled, it's not massively controversial to suggest he did. He offered little in attack and made key errors as well as slipping off numerous tackles.
His decision making was also poor, I'm sure he'll improve but as a snap shot I wasn't impressed at all.

It's nothing to do with Ashton actually, I'd prefer numerous other options including Wade, Watson, Ashton.

On a side note I don't think Nowell will be a long term fixture in the squad, I just don't think he has the quality required to be an Int back 3 player.

 
I think you may be wrong if statistics are to be believed.
 
Because Wade and co have a turn of pace, the percepton is that they offer more in attack than somebody like Nowell, who isn't as quick, but is actually a quite effective player.

How do the stats offered suggest I'm wrong? I've offered an opinion, nobody is more wrong than anybody else, it's an opinion. I've stated I thought he struggled.

I said he slipped off tackles, the stats show he missed tackles. They don't show how effectual the tackles he made were or how bad the missed ones were either. He made yards agreed, I'd expect a WG/FB to make yards. We're these yards made in traffic or from receiving a kick and running it back 20m (from what I seen it's the latter).

I stand by suggesting Nowell struggled in the 6N, I'm not anti Nowell/Exeter, or pro Ashton/Sarries. It's just my opinion from watching the games.

Indeed, Sarge, you're entitled to be wrong - it's a free world!

Haha, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed

Sgt, it's pushing it a bit to suggest that an 84% tackle completion rate for a tyro international wing is struggling, especially when 3 of his 4 missed tackles were on George North.

Likewise, an average of 3 defenders beaten and nearly 60m per match is good under any circumstances, and we know that it can't have been all kick returns because a) Brown was running back most of the kicks anyway (105m per match) and b) several of the teams limited how much ball they kicked to England precisely because of the threat from the kick returners.

You're entitled to your opinions, but we're entitled to ask how you justify them when the facts don't seem to support them. You've repeatedly said he offered little in attack, slipped off tackles and made poor decisions. Yet 3 defenders beaten per game and only 4 missed tackles in the tournament says otherwise on the first two, and you've not given a good example of a poor decision. May's crabbing was a much more visible example of poor decision making in my book.

It's an opinion Poorfour, I thought he looked uneasy throughout the 6N, Stats rarely tell the full story.

On decision making I recall him attempting offloads just outside our 22, running into heavy traffic and getting turned over and other instances which have slipped my memory since the actual tournament.

Apart from his try he never looked like threatening the try line, especially against the better teams. I don't particularly rate him as a good winger and thought he was generally a little out if his depth.

I don't think May exactly set the world alight either.

Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe  Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Luckily for England's sake that Lancaster doesn't think like you!

I think Beshocked has a bit of a point. The majority of those players are without doubt better wingers than Nowell, better players maybe not.

beshocked wrote:Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Agreed but how many can play 15? It's no secret that SL likes at least 2 if not 3 of his back three players to have a 15's skill-set. Nowell has that (as does May to a lesser extent). From that list only Cueto (too old) and Watson can play 15. Not saying I agree with it but his selections have repeatedly reflected this so far (Brown at 11 anyone?).

My view on Nowell is that he has potential but I'm would prefer somebody who is more of threat with ball in hand than Nowell is currently. Thought he went okay in the 6N and would have his performances ahead of May's but ideally would like wingers who worry the opposition so much that they feel they have to double up in defense and so space appears elsewhere. I don't care what position of player scores tries as long as someone does .

Moving away from Engalnd wingers and back to week 19 of the AP - question for Beshocked (or anyone who watched the Sarries vs Saints game). What did you think of the ref? Now I'm not about to blame the ref for the result, the best team won and the final score flattered Saints. However there was one area where I had some concern and am interested to know if others noticed it and felt the same.

It was the first time I remember seeing Matt Carley ref and in general I thought he did a lot of things right. Communication with the players was very good and he seemed consistent to both teams. Both sides did get away with being offside more than once (especially Pisi & Strettle) but that is more the TJ's job anyway. He also (although a bit belatedly) told both sides off for shouting for pens all the time (this really bugs me at the moment, it's the one area where Wayne Barnes leads the way in policing it in the AP).

The area I had concern was his penalising both teams for holding on. It seemed that as soon as an opposition player just touched the ball at the ruck then he blew for a pen. Now I'm all for defenses being able to challenge and turn over ball (otherwise I would watch RL all the time) but the team taking the ball into contact has to have at least some time to present the ball back and I felt that he was at best borderline in giving either side enough time before blowing. Now it's a fine line I know but as we saw in 2009 if you give too much advantage to the defensive side at the breakdown then teams become frightened to carry the ball into contact and in it's place you get a kick fest (and Heinrich Brusoow becomes the worlds most valuable player ). Now again I will reiterate that I felt he was at least consistent to both teams. An example that sticks in my mind was the Heywood won pen at the end when Saints were chasing the game in the final minutes. As a result Saints kicked for the corner and could have snatched an undeserved victory.

Interested to know how others saw it.

I thought he handled the game well. Sure I felt certain interpretations were not how I'd like to see them but he was consistent and he did his best to let the game flow. He did an awful lot better than some experienced refs this weekend.

As long as a ref is consistent and tries to let the game flow then I think they are doing okay.

I thought it was Carley reffed the game really well. It's not often that you notice how the ref in a positive manner but he stepped up and is certainly one if the better performances I've seen this season (don't get me started on Small).

On another note, I thought the Sarries scrum was excellent. I've not seen Waller struggle much this season but JJ put him under all sorts of pressure.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe  Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Luckily for England's sake that Lancaster doesn't think like you!

 
+1
 
Cueto?
 
PMSL
 
Your attempts to discredit Nowell are becoming farcical Beshocked. Of your suggestions, Cueto is too old (replaced at international level years ago). Yarde Wade and Benjamin were injured. Ashton has been dropped and Strettle has had a go. the rest are as untried and raw as Nowell was. Nowell can cover full back and positionally, he was sound. England are scoring tries a plenty through the pack and centres, why be concerned that Nowell isn't prolific?. The stats (and yes, they are the basis for the full story like it or not) suggest he had a solid enough tournament. It is opinion that he struggled, however, in this particular case, it is demonstrable that that opinion is wrong.

Poorfour wrote:Sgt, it's pushing it a bit to suggest that an 84% tackle completion rate for a tyro international wing is struggling, especially when 3 of his 4 missed tackles were on George North.

Likewise, an average of 3 defenders beaten and nearly 60m per match is good under any circumstances, and we know that it can't have been all kick returns because he dropped nearly every kick that came to him   

Fixed that for you PF

Nowell did well in the 6N's but he did look flustered at times. But then it was his first time for England so it's to be expected. To be honest he seemed to do enough to keep his shirt while still not really standing out. Kind of like Mark Cueto when ever he played.

Compare that to Ashton's debut tournament and it looks poor, but compare that to Sharples or May's debut's and it looks pretty good.

I'd personally keep Nowell and then choose from May/Wade/Yarde on the other wing as the faster out and out wing option. If we want Ashton to come back in i'd probably swap Nowell for Ashton as they're both pretty similar styles of wing.

yappysnap wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Sgt, it's pushing it a bit to suggest that an 84% tackle completion rate for a tyro international wing is struggling, especially when 3 of his 4 missed tackles were on George North.

Likewise, an average of 3 defenders beaten and nearly 60m per match is good under any circumstances, and we know that it can't have been all kick returns because he dropped nearly every kick that came to him   

Fixed that for you PF

Nowell did well in the 6N's but he did look flustered at times. But then it was his first time for England so it's to be expected. To be honest he seemed to do enough to keep his shirt while still not really standing out. Kind of like Mark Cueto when ever he played.

Compare that to Ashton's debut tournament and it looks poor, but compare that to Sharples or May's debut's and it looks pretty good.

I'd personally keep Nowell and then choose from May/Wade/Yarde on the other wing as the faster out and out wing option. If we want Ashton to come back in i'd probably swap Nowell for Ashton as they're both pretty similar styles of wing.

A gross exageration. For every ball he fumbled/dropped, he made several good catches that a less spacially aware winger would probably not have been in a position to field. Swings and roundabouts.

yappysnap wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Sgt, it's pushing it a bit to suggest that an 84% tackle completion rate for a tyro international wing is struggling, especially when 3 of his 4 missed tackles were on George North.

Likewise, an average of 3 defenders beaten and nearly 60m per match is good under any circumstances, and we know that it can't have been all kick returns because he dropped nearly every kick that came to him   

Fixed that for you PF

Nowell did well in the 6N's but he did look flustered at times. But then it was his first time for England so it's to be expected. To be honest he seemed to do enough to keep his shirt while still not really standing out. Kind of like Mark Cueto when ever he played.

Compare that to Ashton's debut tournament and it looks poor, but compare that to Sharples or May's debut's and it looks pretty good.

I'd personally keep Nowell and then choose from May/Wade/Yarde on the other wing as the faster out and out wing option. If we want Ashton to come back in i'd probably swap Nowell for Ashton as they're both pretty similar styles of wing.

That's another good example of stats not telling the whole story. I prefer to forge an opinion through watching a game and I can't see how Nowell did anything but struggle through the 6N.

are we seriously arguing that Ashton should now be included again? these things really do go around in full circle. The moment Ashton is included again you guys will be asking for him to be dropped again!

Jimpy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly true, him and may did seem to show a tendency to get isolated.

Jimpy I do not believe  Nowell did enough to warrant an England call up. He is not one of the best wingers in England.

I would take the following above him - Cueto, Elliott ,Watson,Yarde,Wade, Ashton,Rokodiguini,Thompstone,Strettle, Benjamin., Smith.. The list goes on. At least these guys can actually score tries.

Luckily for England's sake that Lancaster doesn't think like you!

 
+1
 
Cueto?
 
PMSL
 
Your attempts to discredit Nowell are becoming farcical Beshocked. Of your suggestions, Cueto is too old (replaced at international level years ago). Yarde Wade and Benjamin were injured. Ashton has been dropped and Strettle has had a go. the rest are as untried and raw as Nowell was. Nowell can cover full back and positionally, he was sound. England are scoring tries a plenty through the pack and centres, why be concerned that Nowell isn't prolific?. The stats (and yes, they are the basis for the full story like it or not) suggest he had a solid enough tournament. It is opinion that he struggled, however, in this particular case, it is demonstrable that that opinion is wrong.

That's a fantastic comment Jimpy.

Don't worry about playing a winger with little scoring threat because the centres & pack score tries?!?!