England U-18s on tour in South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Strong start by England in this annual competition between France,Wales,England & SA with wins against Wales & France big one coming up against SA.
Good that all the lads have got a run out.

http://www.fifteenrugby.com/pro-rugby/news/england/england-u18-keen-to-impress-for-the-future-with-south-africa-showdown/

Italy also sent out a team & played the SA academy.

This is one of the strangest debates I've seen in a while. It was a huge challenge for the young English lads and they did well to win it. Furthermore, I would argue that it helps confirm the burgeoning belief that England is becoming the best at developing young players in the world.

Cumbrian wrote:This is one of the strangest debates I've seen in a while. It was a huge challenge for the young English lads and they did well to win it. Furthermore, I would argue that it helps confirm the burgeoning belief that England is becoming the best at developing young players in the world.

I'd argue England have been and probably are the best at winning at age grade, however the production of pro players from these age grades are typically low, and a struggle England has been trying to counter for years now.

I don't remember a time when England are not there or there abouts when it comes to their age grade teams, however todays players look far better than previous years, where it just seemed size was sole selector.

Neutralee wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:This is one of the strangest debates I've seen in a while. It was a huge challenge for the young English lads and they did well to win it. Furthermore, I would argue that it helps confirm the burgeoning belief that England is becoming the best at developing young players in the world.

I'd argue England have been and probably are the best at winning at age grade, however the production of pro players from these age grades are typically low, and a struggle England has been trying to counter for years now.

I don't remember a time when England are not there or there abouts when it comes to their age grade teams, however todays players look far better than previous years, where it just seemed size was sole selector.

I'd strongly argue with that, practically every player that makes the U18s and U20s squads goes on to have a professional rugby career of some kind these days. They may not all be internationals, but most do become solid professionals in the Premiership, The Championship, Pro 12, Top 14 or the Pro D2.

Cumbrian wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:This is one of the strangest debates I've seen in a while. It was a huge challenge for the young English lads and they did well to win it. Furthermore, I would argue that it helps confirm the burgeoning belief that England is becoming the best at developing young players in the world.

I'd argue England have been and probably are the best at winning at age grade, however the production of pro players from these age grades are typically low, and a struggle England has been trying to counter for years now.

I don't remember a time when England are not there or there abouts when it comes to their age grade teams, however todays players look far better than previous years, where it just seemed size was sole selector.

I'd strongly argue with that, practically every player that makes the U18s and U20s squads goes on to have a professional rugby career of some kind these days. They may not all be internationals, but most do become solid professionals in the Premiership, The Championship, Pro 12, Top 14 or the Pro D2.

I was talking England specifically, the Rabo nations generally go from age grade, to pro to internationally consistently, possibly down to thier lack of numbers and opportunities.

England over the last 10 years have resorted to importing international players from other codes, and nations to cover holes in certain positions. The development of age grade players used to suffer, possibly due to the criticism they received for their selection policies and focus on winning solely.

However in recent years I really think the English systemhas been overhauled and is not producing real quality talent like Nowell, Slater and Cown Dickie who have all gone onto pro contracts and look like real international possibilities.

now not not

The number of U20's stepping up to full Int is increasing every year. I'd say we're currently the best at transitioning through of any NH nation, something I wouldn't have thought possible a few years back.

I'd agree with most of that, England were criminally bad at utilising the player numbers. Things have got so much better over the last four or five years, the culmination of a long term plan that started 10 years ago. For what it's worth I think that things are going to explode soon. There is going to be two successive generations of JRWC winning players coming in after the 2015 World Cup when the older guard changes and seeks retirement packages in France.

I'd agree Cumbrian, it certainly seems we're on the cusp of something special.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The number of U20's stepping up to full Int is increasing every year. I'd say we're currently the best at transitioning through of any NH nation, something I wouldn't have thought possible a few years back.

I would agree that is arguably true too. Looking at the wiki page of the current England squad, I count roughly 32 players that have been in the U20s in the last five years. That is ignoring the not insignificant number of players playing for other nations who came through our system.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The number of U20's stepping up to full Int is increasing every year. I'd say we're currently the best at transitioning through of any NH nation, something I wouldn't have thought possible a few years back.

Really? Lest take last year...

England - Nowell

Wales - Williams, Williams, Dixon

Ireland - mgrath?

Scotland - Gray, Bennet, Allan

I may be wrong on a few please recheck if need be.

So last years crop have faired far better in Wales and Scotland than England..

2012

England - Kvesic? Yarde.

Wales - Prydie, Robinson, Dixon, morgan? Baker

Ireland - mcgrath, Hanrahan, Henderson

Scotland - Allan, Bennet, Gray

Again not 100% please adjust.

So it would seem in the 2 U20 JWC squads the conversion rates to full international honours are;

Wales - 8
England - 3
IReland - 3
Scotland - 3

Um you have missed a fair few. Off the top of my head;

2013

George Ford, Henry Thomas, Billy Vunipola and Marland yarde

2012

Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, joe Launchbury, Owen Farrell and Jon Joseph.

There are definitely more though.

Young players coming through in the last few years include Vunipola brothers Launchbury Wade Yarde Nowell Kvesic Farrell Ford. Watson and a few others have obviously been in and around the squad as well.We were in a situation though where there was almost a lost generation. Lancaster has done well to bring a fair few along hopefully the next coach continues the trend as we look to have a lot of promise.

Cumbrian wrote:Um you have missed a fair few. Off the top of my head;

2013

George Ford, Henry Thomas, Billy Vunipola and Marland yarde

2012

Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, joe Launchbury, Owen Farrell and Jon Joseph.

There are definitely more though.

Sorry mate, none of those names were named in Englands 2013 JWC or 6N squad. Neither were named in 2012 JWC squad (Do Thomas and Joseph have full England caps?)

Just had a look at 2011 though and there are 6 there, Farell, Vunipola, marler and Launchbury among them.

Including 2011's bumper crop I have England (Inc Joseph and Thomas, my bad) at 11, and Wales at 13.

Yup and its important that those selected are given their chance at the right time and supported. We re seeing now these players are being intergrated players chosen to be around the squad and gain the feel of it and know what its about. They re not being picked dump tackled and dropped to obscurity perhaps barring Sharples who could have been given another chance at the time.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup and its important that those selected are given their chance at the right time and supported. We re seeing now these players are being intergrated players chosen to be around the squad and gain the feel of it and know what its about. They re not being picked dump tackled and dropped to obscurity perhaps barring Sharples who could have been given another chance at the time.

There have been plenty of examples in the past of English players being superstars at age grade rugby but never made pro rugby or made an impact. As I said previously the last few seasons England seems to have decided against the 'win at all costs' attitude to selecting, and looked for genuine talent, which has payed off massively, and I think we'll see a lot of age grade players make international honours and less of the Flutey/Vainokolo decisions needed.

Mismanaged youth I can agree with. Good to see general standard of youth players rise as well as it obviously helps.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mismanaged youth I can agree with. Good to see general standard of youth players rise as well as it obviously helps.

What is interesting is that other teams have gone down the other route, look at Wales and they used to get hammered at U18 and U20 level, but have now bred bigger forwards to be competitive. The translation of their forwards to international standard is a lot lower then their backs.

Oh right, I thought you were talking about the years they made their senior England senior squad, my bad. Not many from the last two u20s have made their senior debuts, although some like George Ford and Billy Vunipola were moved up early.

I would also say that Lancaster has been trying to keep as settled a squad as possible. If you look at the extended squad though, a few U20s are an injury away from being called up and have been included in the Saxons or against the Barbarians. There are certain players who WILL be capped this season like Kyle Sinkler, Anthony Watson, Henry Slade and/or George Ford.

Plus the 2011 squad just had so many young and talented individuals, space still needs to be found for them.

Ultimately though, I don't necessarily think it is ideal for players to go straight into the senior squad from the U20s with no first team rugby. I would rather they had at least one season for their clubs before senior call ups, especially amongst the forwards.

Neutralee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup and its important that those selected are given their chance at the right time and supported. We re seeing now these players are being intergrated players chosen to be around the squad and gain the feel of it and know what its about. They re not being picked dump tackled and dropped to obscurity perhaps barring Sharples who could have been given another chance at the time.

There have been plenty of examples in the past of English players being superstars at age grade rugby but never made pro rugby or made an impact. As I said previously the last few seasons England seems to have decided against the 'win at all costs' attitude to selecting, and looked for genuine talent, which has payed off massively, and I think we'll see a lot of age grade players make international honours and less of the Flutey/Vainokolo decisions needed.

Like who? I can only really remember there being massive hype around Danny Cipriani and Matt Tait.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/england-/s245/st186990/england-u18-beat-south-africa-30-22-to-end-season-unbeaten

Neutralee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mismanaged youth I can agree with. Good to see general standard of youth players rise as well as it obviously helps.

What is interesting is that other teams have gone down the other route, look at Wales and they used to get hammered at U18 and U20 level, but have now bred bigger forwards to be competitive. The translation of their forwards to international standard is a lot lower then their backs.

If you re only looking at recent years you re unlikely to see many young forwards of early 20s. Ideally you want to bed them in slightly later. You ve also to consider Wales are in a very different place to England but are now looking to youth for props and 2nd row.

Of the players you mention none of have made an impact in the first XV whilst England have seen players like Marler, Thomas, Launchbury, Lawes, Billy V, Youngs, Farrell, Burns, Tuilagi, Nowell, May etc etc make significant impact for the actual first XV.

We seem to be leading the way in the NH of late with bring youngsters through. With such a young squad compared to the other NH teams things are certainly looking up.

The current senior squad is now built around u20 players from the past 5 years. And I thought there was a striking fact in Fletcher's post match comments:

“In terms of the programme – from Under 15 through to Under 19 – we’ve finished the season unbeaten, and while it’s not all about results, it’s clearly a positive thing. And if you include the Under 20s in that too – they lost one game in the Six Nations and won the Junior World Championship, so it’s fair to say that English rugby is in a good place.

For the entire age-group set up to only lose one game (England u20's away to France in the first game of the 6 Nations) is a real achievement for English youth development. This group of u18 players certainly sounds special, and should have a good chance of going on to win the u20 crown in a couple of years' time. Who knows, maybe that will be 4 years running.

I think we could be in for another great time in English rugby Dave, hopefully we'll build on it this time.

Yes, and this time there are foundations in place for a lengthy period of success.

Decent number of academies represented. No-one from Wasps, Newcastle, or Exeter though as far as I can see.

DaveM wrote:Decent number of academies represented. No-one from Wasps, Newcastle, or Exeter though as far as I can see.

Yes that's surprising as those academies have been very successful over the recent years.

I think I am right in saying those academies have been well represented in the U20's, so potentially not such a surprise at a slightly smaller U18 representation as these things tend to be cyclic.  I suspect those sides will have some strong lads coming thought the U16's who will feature in the U18's next season.  

As has been said, all good for the English game, both in international and club terms.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Of the players you mention none of have made an impact in the first XV whilst England have seen players like Marler, Thomas, Launchbury, Lawes, Billy V, Youngs, Farrell, Burns, Tuilagi, Nowell, May etc etc make significant impact for the actual first XV.

We seem to be leading the way in the NH of late with bring youngsters through. With such a young squad compared to the other NH teams things are certainly looking up.

Well your taking 5 years of Englands age grade and comparing it to the most recent 2 years of Wales...

Justin Tipuric
Scott Williams
Toby Falatau
Rhodri Jones
John Davies
Dan Bigger
Leigh Halfpenny
Sam Warburton
Samson Lee

Are all off the top of my head, I'd say that list is more extensive than Englands and when you compare quality and acheivements they probably beat England there too.

I could probably find a similar list for Ireland and Scotland, the fact you go into the EPS and pick all the players who played U20 rugby isn't a great indicator of production, it's going to all the U20's squads and picking those that made international rugby thats the better indicator, and the celtic nations are always going to win that battle due to the U20's being such a hugedevelopment tool for them, and their lack of options outside of that player pool.

Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies, Tipuric, Bigger.......are 25+ lol

Launchbury, Marler, Nowell, Billy V, Manu Tuilagi.....all 24 or under and in the starting XV.

As I said, England lead the way in bringing youth through in RECENT times. It's not that hard to understand.

Like I said both teams are at slightly different stages. Wales list is likely to add a few more soon as well as older players come to the end. All I can say is I'm delighted at the talent England are getting through and we should be able to see younger players gradually come through now and intergrated rather than throwing them into a sink or swim scenario,

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies, Tipuric, Bigger.......are 25+ lol

Launchbury, Marler, Nowell, Billy V, Manu Tuilagi.....all 24 or under and in the starting XV.

As I said, England lead the way in bringing youth through in RECENT times. It's not that hard to understand.

They played U20 rugby in 2009, using your 'last 5 years' time period they qualify don't they? Unless you want to ignore that year, it highlights your point better, lets just do 2012 onward shall we? That highlights my point better, after the 1 bumper crop of English players in 2011.

7.5 is probably right though, different cycles and needs, making the England team in the last 5 years is probably easier than making the Wales team, due to how settled Wales have been since Gatland, whereas England have had a different managers, different styles and restructuring turnover of players.

Neutralee wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies, Tipuric, Bigger.......are 25+ lol

Launchbury, Marler, Nowell, Billy V, Manu Tuilagi.....all 24 or under and in the starting XV.

As I said, England lead the way in bringing youth through in RECENT times. It's not that hard to understand.

They played U20 rugby in 2009, using your 'last 5 years' time period they qualify don't they? Unless you want to ignore that year, it highlights your point better, lets just do 2012 onward shall we? That highlights my point better, after the 1 bumper crop of English players in 2011.

7.5 is probably right though, different cycles and needs, making the England team in the last 5 years is probably easier than making the Wales team, due to how settled Wales have been since Gatland, whereas England have had a different managers, different styles and restructuring turnover of players.

How'd that settled squad work for you the last 6N??

Wales got hammered off the restructuring, youthful, underdog in England.

The future's bright, the futures white

Yeah I think England are in a very good place with youngsters right now.

And no they wouldn't qualify as the 2009 completion is past the 5 year point now as it's held earlier in the year.

I forgot about marlon Yarde, these boys just keep rolling off the production line!

Neutralee wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Warburton, Halfpenny, Davies, Tipuric, Bigger.......are 25+ lol

Launchbury, Marler, Nowell, Billy V, Manu Tuilagi.....all 24 or under and in the starting XV.

As I said, England lead the way in bringing youth through in RECENT times. It's not that hard to understand.

They played U20 rugby in 2009, using your 'last 5 years' time period they qualify don't they? Unless you want to ignore that year, it highlights your point better, lets just do 2012 onward shall we? That highlights my point better, after the 1 bumper crop of English players in 2011.

7.5 is probably right though, different cycles and needs, making the England team in the last 5 years is probably easier than making the Wales team, due to how settled Wales have been since Gatland, whereas England have had a different managers, different styles and restructuring turnover of players.

Hang on, if we go from 2009 it highlights our point better. You say 2011 was a bumper year but in 2009 we brought through

Freddie Burns, Calum Clarke, Carl Fearns, Graham Kitchener, Manu Tuilagi, Joe Marler, Charlie Sharples, Courtney Lawes, Henry Trinder and Ben Youngs

in 2010

Mako Vunipola, Kieran Brooke's, Jamie Gibson, Jon Joseph and Christian Wade.

In 2011

Matt Kvesic, Henry Thomas, Joe Launchbury, Owen Farrell, George Ford and Marland Yarde.

Practically every one of them was capped at senior level within a few years of being capped at U20 and most of them have stayed with the squad and become integral parts of it.

You talk about integrating guys from the last couple of years U20s, but you can't say wether a player is going to be a long term fixture in the team after one season! Why would it be a sign of good development if a young player gets capped at 18-19 and only goes on to get a handful of caps? It could happen. Surely you need to look at least a little longer term than 1-2 years?

So above being the case, you can assume that players from the 2012 & 2013 squads will be capped by the time they are 23.  I haven't quoted the players who have Saxons caps (The Saxons being seen as the gateway between U20s and the first team) who are waiting to step up this coming season:

Scott Wilson, Elliott Stooke, Elliott Daly, Henry Slade, Anthony Watson, Dan Robson, Ollie Devoto, Jack Nowell and Sam Hill.

This doesn't include Luke Cowan-Dickie and Kyle Sinkler who went to NZ with the senior England squad.

So many of these forwards are coming through very fast by historical standards. It will be interesting to see who makes it long term

No offence meant but I don't know half of those names your listing, if they don't have international caps they can't be considered a success, and frankly those who do are pretty average players, highlighting how easier it is in recent times to get an England call up than a settled squad call up.

Please enlighten me how Wales got in this year? 3rd/4th, why is that an issue? I was talking about how settled their squad was, not how quality it is. However that said I did read numerous articles last season about lions hangovers, and how France generally win after a lions year, so allowing Wales the season off from domination because they near single handedly won a lions tour wouldn't be going too far would it? (Tongue in cheek for the precious ones)

Neutralee wrote:No offence meant but I don't know half of those names your listing, if they don't have international caps they can't be considered a success, and frankly those who do are pretty average players, highlighting how easier it is in recent times to get an England call up than a settled squad call up.

Please enlighten me how Wales got in this year? 3rd/4th, why is that an issue? I was talking about how settled their squad was, not how quality it is. However that said I did read numerous articles last season about lions hangovers, and how France generally win after a lions year, so allowing Wales the season off from domination because they near single handedly won a lions tour wouldn't be going too far would it? (Tongue in cheek for the precious ones)

The ones I listed above do have caps.

No offence taken, but just because you don't know who they are means squat. You'll become acquainted with them in the coming years, especially if you watch England.

They are average in your opinion, but there are a lot of people out there who can recognise the class of the players that have progressed to be first choice players like Joe Launchbury, Joe Marler, Manu Tuilagi, Billy Vunipola and Marland Yarde. England aren't the finished article my any means and Wales have had a settled squad and can rightly claim to have been the better but the winds seem to bebe changing.

Also, Wales singlehandly won the Lions tour, yet have lost seven times on the bounce to Australia both home and away...

Cumbrian wrote:

Neutralee wrote:No offence meant but I don't know half of those names your listing, if they don't have international caps they can't be considered a success, and frankly those who do are pretty average players, highlighting how easier it is in recent times to get an England call up than a settled squad call up.

Please enlighten me how Wales got in this year? 3rd/4th, why is that an issue? I was talking about how settled their squad was, not how quality it is. However that said I did read numerous articles last season about lions hangovers, and how France generally win after a lions year, so allowing Wales the season off from domination because they near single handedly won a lions tour wouldn't be going too far would it? (Tongue in cheek for the precious ones)

The ones I listed above do have caps.

No offence taken, but just because you don't know who they are means squat. You'll become acquainted with them in the coming years, especially if you watch England.  

They are average in your opinion, but there are a lot of people out there who can recognise the class of the players that have progressed to be first choice players like Joe Launchbury, Joe Marler, Manu Tuilagi, Billy Vunipola and Marland Yarde. England aren't the finished article my any means and Wales have had a settled squad and can rightly claim to have been the better but the winds seem to bebe changing.

Also, Wales singlehandly won the Lions tour, yet have lost seven times on the bounce to Australia both home and away...

Of course your right, and I may well be proved wrong, but looking at players like Sharples, Trinder, Clarke, Fearns etc you really think winning a RWC is an option with these guys?

The names I don't know are the ones who have appeared in the odd tour to nowhere and picked up the odd cap, that is about as much of a crime as calling them success's at this stage isn't it?

Your right too, England seem to have the younger and more exciting time ahead right now, but for years other teams have looked potentially world class but were never able to produce, Johnson was never bereft of talent, he was just reluctant to use it or trust in it, whereas Lancaster seems to have gone the total opposite way, and is arguable using too much of it, and not allowing key players gametime.

RE Wales single handedly winning the lions tour, hands up it was a bit of a cr@ppy comment, didn't think it sounded that bad as I typed it. But you have to give allowences considering they had so many players on tour, I remember in 2006 England were shockingly bad and it was clear taking 20 odd lions tourists had effected them.

Neutralee wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Neutralee wrote:No offence meant but I don't know half of those names your listing, if they don't have international caps they can't be considered a success, and frankly those who do are pretty average players, highlighting how easier it is in recent times to get an England call up than a settled squad call up.

Please enlighten me how Wales got in this year? 3rd/4th, why is that an issue? I was talking about how settled their squad was, not how quality it is. However that said I did read numerous articles last season about lions hangovers, and how France generally win after a lions year, so allowing Wales the season off from domination because they near single handedly won a lions tour wouldn't be going too far would it? (Tongue in cheek for the precious ones)

The ones I listed above do have caps.

No offence taken, but just because you don't know who they are means squat. You'll become acquainted with them in the coming years, especially if you watch England.  

They are average in your opinion, but there are a lot of people out there who can recognise the class of the players that have progressed to be first choice players like Joe Launchbury, Joe Marler, Manu Tuilagi, Billy Vunipola and Marland Yarde. England aren't the finished article my any means and Wales have had a settled squad and can rightly claim to have been the better but the winds seem to bebe changing.

Also, Wales singlehandly won the Lions tour, yet have lost seven times on the bounce to Australia both home and away...

Of course your right, and I may well be proved wrong, but looking at players like Sharples, Trinder, Clarke, Fearns etc you really think winning a RWC is an option with these guys?

The names I don't know are the ones who have appeared in the odd tour to nowhere and picked up the odd cap, that is about as much of a crime as calling them success's at this stage isn't it?

Your right too, England seem to have the younger and more exciting time ahead right now, but for years other teams have looked potentially world class but were never able to produce, Johnson was never bereft of talent, he was just reluctant to use it or trust in it, whereas Lancaster seems to have gone the total opposite way, and is arguable using too much of it, and not allowing key players gametime.

RE Wales single handedly winning the lions tour, hands up it was a bit of a cr@ppy comment, didn't think it sounded that bad as I typed it. But you have to give allowences considering they had so many players on tour, I remember in 2006 England were shockingly bad and it was clear taking 20 odd lions tourists had effected them.

Still consider this to be a neutral comment!

Which part isn't?

I agree and say I may be proved wrong then list players I don't particularly rate?

Concede I don't know the names of players who havn't quite made it yet?

Say that England are younger and more exciting than Wales?

Put my hands up to a bad comment I made, but highlighted similarities between Wales 2014 and England 2006?

I really don't get it, whats not agreeable? I think this is where our problems lie, I say something that is sometimes neutral, sometimes critical, and sometimes complimentray, and on all 3 occasions you attack me for not being who I say I am.

Uncapped players aren't a success and those that are are pretty average. Like you say you don't even know who half of them are which shows you can't watch much Premiership rugby. Commenting on how many or who should come through appears to be a step to far then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Uncapped players aren't a success and those that are are pretty average. Like you say you don't even know who half of them are which shows you can't watch much Premiership rugby. Commenting on how many or who should come through appears to be a step to far then.

Well in a discussion about how good age grade systems are in converting kids to full internationals, of course uncapped players aren't proven success stories yet!

Are you saying Fearns, Clarke, Sharples etc are international quality?

I watch a decent amount of prem rugby, but even if I didn't what effect does that have on a debate as to who has the best age grade set up for creating international players.

Please go and re read, you seem to want to argue for no reason.

I would say Fearns and Clarke could be international quality though I doubt Clark would be able to get past all the other flankers available. The a fair few of the Welsh players you named aren't exactly pulling up trees yet either. Not balanced. Having an international cap doesn't automatically make you a success and vice versa. You need to have some knowledge of players at Premiership level to be able to judge them as players. Useless listing those playing at U20s level and saying how many have made it through if you don't know what they offer. I assumed you had a good knowledge as you were saying the U18s were favourites vs South Africa; now take it you know about as much about them as the U20s group which begs the question how you would know if they could get a result in SA or not.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I would say Fearns and Clarke could be international quality though I doubt Clark would be able to get past all the other flankers available. The a fair few of the Welsh players you named aren't exactly pulling up trees yet either. Not balanced. Having an international cap doesn't automatically make you a success and vice versa. You need to have some knowledge of players at Premiership level to be able to judge them as players. Useless listing those playing at U20s level and saying how many have made it through if you don't know what they offer. I assumed you had a good knowledge as you were saying the U18s were favourites vs South Africa; now take it you know about as much about them as the U20s group which begs the question how you would know if they could get a result in SA or not.

Geez louise! You are on an absolute mission...

I listed Welsh and English players, I didn't say any wwere any better than others, I allowed the national coaches to do the work for me. Selected is selected is selected. The Welsh players I named were from the last 2 seasons, and they had 8 full caps to Englands 3 in the last 2 seasons, the only reason I went further was because someone was using U20 players from 3/4 seasons ago and compared them to last years Welsh U20's!

You realise reputation isn't an indicator of international quality? I need no knowledge of Aviva rugby to determine wether a player is international quality or not, Sharples for instance had I not seen him play in the prem would've written himoff straight away, as useless.

You can look at players until your blue in the face, truth is if they can't do it on the international stage they are just not good enough for international rugby, despite club form.

Please tell me where I've commented on individual U18 players? Except for those I've praised and have stood out (Gerber etc)? I commented on Englands U18's not being underdogs, by the very definition of the meaning, and by the people in charge of Englands U18's words themselves.

No matter how much you twist and turn the goalposts you can't trip me up because I only say what I see, and what I see is usually black and white.

I'd say the problem England had in the past was judging players too soon and not giving them the chance. You're still not using the English defintiion of underdog then and have you got the quotes from England saying they were favourites as the only ones I've seen were very balanced mentioning nothing of who was likely to win? Problem with seeing in black and white is it can't be neutral as there are so many shades of grey.

The arugement is slightly flawed anyway.

1) Theres only 15 places on a pitch for a team nad only so many in the squad....so however many you bring through only a few will progress.

2) The best international teams are built over years with high caps...thus changing the side every year to accomodate a newbie from the recent U20 World Cup win is not a good idea. Build a nice experienced quality team and change positions individually when its required....as the AB's do and are the best in the world at.

3) I will agree that we have been woeful at bringing through the players from the age groups into the seniors....and whilst still not great i think it is improving rapidly.
Much of this due to the good work by the Age group coaches where they're teaching the players skills not just that being big is an advantage.

Im not sure how much input Lancaster has had in this, but possibly quite a bit.