Edinburgh Rugby v Scarlets 26th September

Referee: John Lacey (IRFU, 38th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Paterson, Stephen Hart (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Kirk (SRU)
TMO: David Changleng (SRU)


Edinburgh
Last 3 Matches
Date
Home Away
21/9/14 Ospreys 62 - 13 Edinburgh
12/9/14 Edinburgh 13 - 14 Connacht
5/9/14 Munster 13 - 14 Edinburgh


Scarlets
Last 3 Matches
Date
Home Away
20/9/14 Scarlets 43 - 0 Treviso
13/9/14 Leinster 42 - 12 Scarlets
6/9/14 Scarlets 32 - 32 Ulster

Teams:

Edinburgh  
15 Greig Tonks

14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard

12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser

10 Tom Heathcote
9 Sean Kennedy

1  Alasdair Dickinson
2  Ross Ford (captain)
3  John Andress
4  Anton Bresler
5  Ollie Atkins
6  Tomas Leonardi
7  Hamish Watson
8  Cornell Du Preez

16  James Hilterbrand
17  Allan Dell
18  Willem Nel
19  Grant Gilchrist
20  Roddy Grant
21  Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22  Phil Burleigh
23  Nick McLennan


Scarlets
15. Liam Williams
14. Harry Robinson
13. Gareth Owen
12. Scott Wiliams (capt)
11. Mike Tagicakibau
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Aled Davies
1. Rob Evans
2. Emyr Phillips
3. Rhodri Jones
4. Jake Ball
5. Johan Snyman
6. Aaron Shingler
7. John Barclay
8. Rob McCusker

Replacements
16. Kirby Myhill
17. Phil John
18. Samson Lee
19. Rory Pitman
20. James Davies
21. Rhodri Williams
22. Steven Shingler
23. Adam Warren

So after the doom and gloom last week (for Edinburgh) thought I’d start a new thread for our game on Friday.

No idea what side we’ll put out, but at a guess:

Dickinson
Ford
Andress
McKenzie
Atkins
Leonardi
Watson
Du Preez

Kennedy
Tonks

Visser
Strauss
Burleigh
McLennnan

Cuthbert

I don't think I can watch this, I don't want to start my weekend watching a massacre. Maybe if we ask Alba nicely they will cover the Warriors game instead.

No Strauss please.. the guy is hopeless i would be tempted to start Dominguez, at least he offers something going forward.

Short turnaround which isn't helping our (small) chances..

Confidence is possibly going to be key in this game.  Scarlets are coming off a good win over Treviso, Edinburgh are coming into this game thrashed by Ospreys and then what was left of our side getting simiar treatment from Glasgow last night.

I fear this is going to be painful.

Great job, Mr Spoons.

Scarlets are entirely the wrong team to play if you have a leaky defence and I'm very, very worried about this one. Williams and Davies looked great against Treviso and Scarlets are a momentum side, so if Edinburgh don't get some points on the board fast it could be a landslide.

Edinburgh really need to play a possession and positional game to disrupt the Scarlets' backline fluency. More easily said than done, but I think it means that Edinburgh needs to start Heathcote.

This could get messy. I was planning to put in a request to Mrs fES so I could go to this game but I may just end up burning up some very hard earned points with the wife for what could equate to torture.

I'll wait and see what the starting XV looks like. I will not be impressed to see Mr Strauss at 12 and anyone on the wing who isn't actually a winger.

So just to summarise:

5 days previous to this game Edinburgh were humped by 60 points
4 days previous to this game, those not involved in the Ospreys massacre were getting overwhelmed by Glasgow.

So not only is the confidence of the entire squad going to be completely shot, the entire squad are also going to be physically fatigued meaning that those who do play on Friday are physically unlikely to be able to play at their optimum level.

The short turnaround also means there will be little chance on the training pitch to try and sort things. Given players usually need 2 game to recover from a game physically before doing any meaningful training, and they also usually need a day off the week of the game, there's pretty much only 1 day to do a decent session to try to change things round.

Grim.

can someone pls go through the squad and mark out those who are any good. seems like the coaches just sign players they know. v damaging to scottish national team rugby

I think you lot are being a little negative here, playing the Scarlets in Edinburgh is a lot less daunting than playing the Ospreys in Swansea, apart from 2011 when the Scarlets beat Edinburgh in Wales 33-17 and in 2008 when Edinburgh beat the Scarlets 32-12 there has not been much in it, Edinburgh even have the better record at home, so for me, I would not take last Sunday into account, unless you reckon Edinburgh will use that result to put a few things right, with the Scarlets leaky defence against any decent opposition then I can see a narrow win for Edinburgh, as history would suggest:-

http://www.goalwire.com/en/statistics_and_tables/rugby/rugby_union/pro_12/edinburgh_rugby_vs_scarlets/5679746/

Thanks for that boost LD

That's the spirit! Sunday was such a shafting it's easy to understand the anger though.
The start of the season in the Aviva has shown a few one-sided humpings with decent teams on the receiving end, then returning to some semblance of normality and repectability the next game. Anybody can have a really bad/less than productive day at the office, which is what I am doing/intend on doing for the rest of today.

True Jonners, but then again being wildly uneven in performances was one of Edinburgh's most noteworthy problems last year and it's something which I would expect Solomons to be able to correct in the first half of the season.

He does keep swapping players around aimlessly though. Who does he think he is, Gregor Townsend?

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:That's the spirit!  Sunday was such a shafting it's easy to understand the anger though.  
The start of the season in the Aviva has shown a few one-sided humpings with decent teams on the receiving end, then returning to some semblance of normality and repectability the next game.  Anybody can have a really bad/less than productive day at the office, which is what I am doing/intend on doing for the rest of today.  

Exactly, when have Leicester ever shipped 45 points to another English team. Quins got completely murdered the other day as well. Bet you both of those teams are kicking around the top of the AP at the business end of the season.

It is actually quite easy for a game to go from a bad defeat, which would have been no great surprise given the Ospreys have made a pretty decent start to the season, to a rout, when they start to chuck it about willy nilly towards the end of the game. There would not have been nearly so much angst if it had just been a 20-30 point thrashing, despite the fact that they would still have lost the match badly.

So far Edinburgh's season has produces a great away win against Munster, certainly not to be sniffed at. A tight home loss to Connacht, a game that they could and should have won and finally a total capitulation to the Spreys. They won't be the only team to loss badly down there this season, despite predictions to the contrary, they are still going to be one of the better teams in the league this year and they look like they are taking it seriously from the off this time, something they have not always done!

All we can deduce from that is that they still have not found any consistency. We saw in the game v Munster and the pre season games that not only can they win but that they can play a decent brand of rugby when they are on their game. They really just need to work out how to get on their game more often in the intensity of a week in, week out season. I think we are realistically looking at mid table with some decent wins mixed up with some poor ones. The journey from where Edinburgh have been the past couple of years to where Glasgow are now is going to take more than one season.

The season has only just started, so keep the faith!

alive555 wrote:can someone pls go through the squad and mark out those who are any good. seems like the coaches just sign players they know. v damaging to scottish national team rugby

Here goes!

Key:

(Position) - NSQ

International class (Scotland)

Al Dickinson (1)
Ross Ford (2)
Grant Gilchrist (4)
Cornell Du Preez (6/8)
Dave Denton (8)
Matt Scott (12)
Tim Visser (11)

Good Pro 12 standard- potential International

WP Nel (3)
Fraser McKenzie (4)
Roddy Grant (7)
Greig Tonks (10/15)
Dougie Fife (14)
Jack Cuthbert (15)

Good squad players

John Andress (3)
Ollie Atkins (5)
Anton Bresler (5 - jury is still out, he's had an underwhelming start but should be higher)
Mike Coman (6) (being generous)
Grayson Hart (9)
Phil Burleigh (12)
Tom Brown (15)

Promising youngsters

Rory Sutherland (1)
Alan Dell (1)
Stuart McInally (2)
George Turner (2)
Ewan McQuillan (3)
Toolis twins (4/5)
Hamish Watson (7)
Jamie Ritchie (6/8)
Sam Hidalgo Clyne (9)
Sean Kennedy (9)
Tom Heathcoat (10)
Jamie Farndale (11)
Chris Dean (13)
Damian Hoyland (14)

Solid yet unspectacular

Thomas Leonardi (6)
Wicuss Blaauw (1)
Neil Cochrane (2)
Joaquin Dominguez (12)
Sam Beard (13)

Michael Tait (12/13)
Carl Bezzy (10/15)
Nick Mclennan (15)
Brett Thomson (14 - not seen him play yet)

Not so solid and not so spectacular

James Hilterbrand (2 - Ok in the loose, rubbish throwing)
Simon Berghan (3 - although still young)
Andreas Strauss (12)
Ben Atiga (12)


So from that I suppose you can conclude the following:

- Our best players are generally Scottish
- We have a shedload of promising youngsters. Sadly, not many of them will see gametime.
- Most of the NSQ players either fall into solid yet unspectacular, or not so solid and not so spectacular

Good job, RDW - that took some time.

As FES will tell you, Glasgow players only need one category: [World Class]/[Hopelessly Overrated] (delete as applicable).

RDW - that is an excellent effort.

I might consider promoting Burleigh and Bresler to good Pro 12 standard in time, but I agree that both have started poorly.

I would also promote Sam Beard to "good squad player". When he's been picked at 13 he's done fine (nicely set-up Cuthbert for that Munster win and played well throughout that game....and was then dropped), but he's not a winger.

GC - 100% correct. The Glasgow squad is oozing with "World Class" players (in the Welsh sense). What they lack in ability they more than make up for in "spirit" and "soul".

Great breakdown. I agree with FES regarding Beard though. I think his reputation has suffered from:
1. Being "one of those" Southern Hemisphere imports
2. Being played on the bloody wing!
I've liked what I've seen when he plays centre, if he was a born and bred Scot folk would be foaming at the mouth about him and Scott at 12/13.


For arguments sake let's say (heaven forbid) that we have a run of matches getting battered like on Sunday.

People tend to say youngsters don't benefit from coming into a team getting shafted each week. In that scenario, would it be worth making the wholesale changes to bring our young SQs in? Or would it do more harm than good and we'd be better off letting Strauss et al wilt away with each defeat until we get a new coach/system/leadership etc etc?

It's a bit long winded but basically I don't get that argument really. Ideally you'd feed them into a winning team, but if not I think they would gain more from playing in a team getting hammered rather than watching a team getting hammered...... Just thinking of Wilkinson and others who no doubt benefitted from their tour of hell.
As long as it's not happening year upon year and heads go down, it would certainly give them a character building start at "big school". Long term some would sink, some would swim.

Anyway, I hope (and think) performances will pick up from this Friday and it doesn't come to that. It's just a thought though.

Suppose I agree on Beard. Got to take into account the fact he's playing outside Strauss too!


That's a good question about the youngsters - Solomons says they are best coming into a winning team. What if we're getting pumped every week??

I don't think it's a black and white as saying "pick young SQ players" - I think you need to look at each and every position and the available players on their merits.

I think Rory Sutherland has a strong case against Wicus Blaauw, who has never really played particularly well. Sutherland looked competent in the set piece pre-season and dynamic in the loose. Given Blaauw's listless performances I personally think Sutherland deserves to understudy Dickinson on merit.

Strauss, like Blaauw, has never looked the part, and has been given a long run in the side to show what he can do. He hasn't delivered and now someone else should be given a shot. My preference would be Burleigh (who doesn't look like a 13) but equally Dominguez could work. I'd like Beard to be given another shot at 13, I think he deserves it, but otherwise I'd take a look at Deans, who looked ok pre-season. Long-term, as I've suggested plenty of times, I think Scott and Fife should be the Edinburgh centres, with one of Hoyland or Farndale on the wing.

thanks

reading from that list the real duffers are mainly imports which begs the question the coach isnt good at identifying talent.

I think we've got as much chance of Alex Salmond accepting the result of the referendum as Solomons dropping Strauss!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we've got as much chance of Alex Salmond accepting the result of the referendum as Solomons dropping Strauss!

You, like me, were clearly "tricked" into voting No. If you want a laugh, I'd suggest visiting the "45" Facebook page. They have accused voters over the age of 65 of being "selfish" and suggest that Scotland should simply unilaterally declare independence should the SNP uphold its Hollyrood majority, or the UK vote to leave the EU at a future referendum.

Talk about being sore losers!! Makes the NZ rugby supporters following every World Cup bar two look reasonable!!

Exactly FES - it would seem that 'freedom' evidently meant 'freedom to agree with the 45%', but not freedom to choose to remain in the Union. For a movement who were so keen to talk up the intelligence and common sense of the Scottish people in the last two years, they're awfully quick to explain away the 2 million No votes as us simply being stupid and easily convinced by Westminster lies.

It's all OK though. You see, if you voted No, you're not really Scottish. I'm not, and neither are any of you.

Oi No politics on the rugby threads. remember what you are seeing is very much a fringe - but there is a lot of very upset folk out there. They will settle down and its hardly riots is it?

Apologies TJ, point noted.

In my defence, my comment was rugby related!

So is anyone going on Friday? Can see it barely breaking the 3k mark.

Going where - down the pub?

Oh well, looks like Wales international hooker Ken Owens could be out of Friday night's game, so there is more hope for Edinburgh,also no top try scoring srum half Gareth Davies and no Regan King, Edinburgh will not get a better chance of a home win against the Scarlets:-


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/29331157

That means that Ken Owens will be able to hook a ball about as well Ross Ford will on the night.

George Carlin wrote:That means that Ken Owens will be able to hook a ball about as well Ross Ford will on the night.

No Gareth Davies or Regan King either, if Edinburgh lose on Friday serious qeustions need to be asked.

LordDowlais wrote: if Edinburgh lose on Friday serious qeustions need to be asked.

I would say the reciprocal could be said of the Scarlets!

If Scarlets have real ambitions of being a regular top 6 team, and even pushing for the playoffs, these are the kind of games you need to be winning.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: if Edinburgh lose on Friday serious qeustions need to be asked.

I would say the reciprocal could be said of the Scarlets!

If Scarlets have real ambitions of being a regular top 6 team, and even pushing for the playoffs, these are the kind of games you need to be winning.

Scarlets will not have first teamers playing in key positions though, so the questions (excuses) are already being answered.

LD - neither will Edinburgh most likely. Gilchrist, Denton, Scott and Fife all look to be missing - that's 4 international players.

Scarlets should win. Our defense is in tatters, heads are down, scrum isn't working, lineout isn't working, tactics aren't working, fans are rapidly losing interest, team selection is poor and the coaches think we're moving in the right direction!

Top 6 is going to be a tough ask this season. I can't see Edinburgh making it to be honest, not losing to Connacht at home and being destroyed in that manner by the Ospreys, so Scarlets needs to be picking up points here.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, looks like Wales international hooker Ken Owens could be out of Friday night's game, so there is more hope for Edinburgh,also no top try scoring srum half Gareth Davies and no Regan King, Edinburgh will not get a better chance of a home win against the Scarlets:-


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/29331157

No Ken Owens
No Regan King
No Rory Pitman
No Gareth Davies
No George Earle

worrying for us. I'd be ecstatic with any sort of win.

Well I suspect tomorrow will be your lucky night!

Can't help but think the Edinburgh marketing team has lost a bit of enthusiasm too. There is a student deal on for this game and last year they had Matt Scott ar Edinburgh Uni promoting it - this year they just Tweeted a picture of the flyer, with no words explaining it and no build up!

Well if the last couple of games are anything to go by it would probably have a negative effect should new supporters be drawn to watch Edinburgh at the moment.

Watching Strauss slowly run into someone isn't really worth the trip.

International class (Scotland)

Al Dickinson (1)
Ross Ford (2)
Grant Gilchrist (4)
Cornell Du Preez (6/8)
Dave Denton (8)
Matt Scott (12)
Tim Visser (11)

Sorry had to take an issue with one of these

Ross Ford (2)

Is not International class and has not been for several years - A hooker that can not hook, or throw in an international team is not international class

By international I was meaning good enough to play for Scotland.

Putting his individual issues aside, his 77 caps and the fact that he's likely to add to that over the coming months and years firmly puts him in that category!

Plus, there's no one really else demanding his spot just now - there's experienced average squad players (Lawson, hall), a few potentials for the future (Brown, Bryce) and some that just haven't developed as much as we'd hoped (McArthur).

Come off it Risky. You're just being picky. In fact I'd go as far as to say that was negative scaremongering.

To be fair to RDW, he did put "(Scotland)" after International class, which I took to mean that he meant "Scotland class". In which case a hooker who can't hook or throw sounds about right. After all, with Kellock we had a lock that didn't ruck, with Brown we had an openside that didn't fetch or link, with Laidlaw we had a 9 that didn't pass, with Parks and now Weir we had a 10 who couldn't pass or run with any accuracy, with Morrison and Lamont we had centres who couldn't pass full stop, and with Lamont, Walker and Danielli we had wingers who weren't quick and didn't score.

Ross Ford is certainly "Scotland class".

Tim "penalty machine" Swinson is Scotland class too

Fair enough. I forgot my Scotland filter

Talking about Scotland Class what happened to NdL?

He's at Biarritz I believe, reminding them of Damien Trialle in his pomp no doubt.

He's another one I'd welcome back to Edinbrugh with open arms - he is very much a 13, not Hurly or Scott (12) played out of position.

He's another one treated unfairly IMO, unless of course it was all him wanting to leave...

NdL was an excellent player for Edinburgh. His inconsistency was too costly at international level but his brain farts were easily outnumbers by his positive contributions when he played for Edinburgh.

There's a picture of him berating Solomons after we lost to Gloucester at home. I think that was when his card was marked.

We lost a lot of squad quality when him and Geoffrey left. I have a feeling that they didn't show Solomons the respect he felt he was due.

Keep calm, Gilcho is back:

15 Greig Tonks

14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard

12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser

10 Tom Heathcote
9 Sean Kennedy

1  Alasdair Dickinson
2  Ross Ford (captain)
3  John Andress
4  Anton Bresler
5  Ollie Atkins
6  Tomas Leonardi
7  Hamish Watson
8  Cornell Du Preez

16  James Hilterbrand
17  Allan Dell
18  Willem Nel
19  Grant Gilchrist
20  Roddy Grant
21  Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22  Phil Burleigh
23  Nick McLennan

Beard, Strauss and Cuthbert all on the field at the same time.
Negotiation of an international arms treaty would move more quickly than that shower.

Good job that the Scarlets backs aren't quick or good at broken field play or anything.

Wish the pitch was as bad as last season so the difference in space between the 2 backlines could be altered!

Scarlets
15. Liam Williams
14. Harry Robinson
13. Gareth Owen
12. Scott Wiliams (capt)
11. Mike Tagicakibau
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Aled Davies
1. Rob Evans
2. Emyr Phillips
3. Rhodri Jones
4. Jake Ball
5. Johan Snyman
6. Aaron Shingler
7. John Barclay
8. Rob McCusker
Replacements
16. Kirby Myhill
17. Phil John
18. Samson Lee
19. Rory Pitman
20. James Davies
21. Rhodri Williams
22. Steven Shingler
23. Adam Warren


Hope Edinburgh can somehow keep both Williams quiet.

VinceWLB wrote:Wish the pitch was as bad as last season so the difference in space between the 2 backlines could be altered!

Scarlets
15. Liam Williams
14. Harry Robinson
13. Gareth Owen
12. Scott Wiliams (capt)
11. Mike Tagicakibau
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Aled Davies
1. Rob Evans
2. Emyr Phillips
3. Rhodri Jones
4. Jake Ball
5. Johan Snyman
6. Aaron Shingler
7. John Barclay
8. Rob McCusker
Replacements
16. Kirby Myhill
17. Phil John
18. Samson Lee
19. Rory Pitman
20. James Davies
21. Rhodri Williams
22. Steven Shingler
23. Adam Warren

Hope Edinburgh can somehow keep both Williams quiet.

Keep forgetting that this is another opportunity for JB to turn the breakdown into his own private sex dungeon again (copyright...?).

As an ex-Glasgow player, Barclay is, of course, world class. (World) class being permanent, of course.

George Carlin wrote:Keep calm, Gilcho is back:

15 Greig Tonks

14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard

12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser

10 Tom Heathcote
9 Sean Kennedy

1  Alasdair Dickinson
2  Ross Ford (captain)
3  John Andress
4  Anton Bresler
5  Ollie Atkins
6  Tomas Leonardi
7  Hamish Watson
8  Cornell Du Preez

16  James Hilterbrand
17  Allan Dell
18  Willem Nel
19  Grant Gilchrist
20  Roddy Grant
21  Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22  Phil Burleigh
23  Nick McLennan

Beard, Strauss and Cuthbert all on the field at the same time.
Negotiation of an international arms treaty would move more quickly than that shower.

Good job that the Scarlets backs aren't quick or good at broken field play or anything.

Three clear errors in this team selection.

1. Strauss at 12. Not good enough at this level.

2. Cuthbert on the wing. Not good enough a winger at this level. He's a 15 or nothing. I suspect we'll see him chasing a lot of balls hoofed into the air.

3. Tonks at 15. Looks like the fly half experiment has been ditched before it began. Shame for Scottish rugby, not that Solomons cares.

The good news is that Beard is back at 13, Gilchrist is obviously getting close to match fitness and Du Preez hasn't left the club looking to play for a real rugby team. I'm also pleased to see Andress back at prop. He didn't deserve to be dropped, another poor decision from Solomons.

The continued selection of Strauss at 12 has completely demotivated me from attending this game. He is rubbish!

I hope Vern Cotter attends this match in person. Not for any of the Edinburgh players, but to watch John Barclay play Hamish Watson. That should be an interesting battle, with Watson just about the only player to have turned up for Edinburgh this season.

Scott Williams vs Andries Strauss. Makes me want to cry.