Edinburgh Rugby v Scarlets 26th September

by EWT Spoons Tue 23 Sep 2014, 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh v Scarlets
26th September 2014
19:35
BT Murrayfield
Guinness PRO12
Sadly on TV – BBC Alba & BBC Wales

Referee: John Lacey (IRFU, 38th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Neil Paterson, Stephen Hart (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Kirk (SRU)
TMO: David Changleng (SRU)

Edinburgh
Last 3 Matches
Date
Home Away
21/9/14 Ospreys 62 - 13 Edinburgh
12/9/14 Edinburgh 13 - 14 Connacht
5/9/14 Munster 13 - 14 Edinburgh

Scarlets
Last 3 Matches
Date
Home Away
20/9/14 Scarlets 43 - 0 Treviso
13/9/14 Leinster 42 - 12 Scarlets
6/9/14 Scarlets 32 - 32 Ulster

Teams:

Edinburgh picard

15 Greig Tonks
 14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard 
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser 
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford (captain)
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ollie Atkins
6 Tomas Leonardi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Cornell Du Preez

16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 Willem Nel
19 Grant Gilchrist
20 Roddy Grant
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Phil Burleigh
23 Nick McLennan

Scarlets
15. Liam Williams
14. Harry Robinson
13. Gareth Owen
12. Scott Wiliams (capt)
11. Mike Tagicakibau
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Aled Davies
1. Rob Evans
2. Emyr Phillips
3. Rhodri Jones
4. Jake Ball
5. Johan Snyman
6. Aaron Shingler
7. John Barclay
8. Rob McCusker

Replacements
16. Kirby Myhill
17. Phil John
18. Samson Lee
19. Rory Pitman
20. James Davies
21. Rhodri Williams
22. Steven Shingler
23. Adam Warren

by GLove39 Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:39 pm

TJ wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Well, well, well. Can we finish it off

I'm gonna for for No...

spoken like a true scot :-)

Cheeky!

by TJ Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:43 pm

The Saint wrote:Tonight, John Lacey showed why he's one of the better refs in the Pro12, which is a rarity. I guess you can't please everyone though.

I'd agree. I thought he had a good game. No major blunders. Can't complain about the yellow cards bar perhaps the first one which was a tad harsh. Got all the major decisions right.

by **RDW** Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:44 pm

Best ref in the Pro 12 that doesn't know the rules, and gives one team 2 harsh yellow cards and doesn't penalise the other until 70 minutes despite repeated infringements?

To be fair, if that's all that is contentious then he definitely is one of the best refs in the Pro 12!

by jimbopip Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:48 pm

Careful RDW, you're venturing into "moral victory" territory there: the Welsh lads like to think they have sole tenancy there.

by VinceWLB Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:49 pm

Great comeback from 17-3 down.

Hopefully Edinburgh can build from this.

by TJ Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:50 pm

RDW - on another look at the game I bet you would find little to complain about. 2nd yellow card was stonewall. Scarlets about to win ball. He looks at the ref - the ref shouts "hands off" he picked it up. Just stupid. good attacking ball ruined, and deliberate as the ref had told him not to do it.. On the edinburgh mall - all the scarlets on thier feet had backed away from the pile of bodies. Edinburgh emerged with the ball at the back and walked 10 m without a scarlet to form a maul. Penalty scarlets is right. Obstruction.

by **RDW** Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:50 pm

We certainly didn't do enough to deserve to win - the lineout alone was rank amateur.

A draw was probably fair, but we were poor!

by **RDW** Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:54 pm

TJ wrote:RDW - on another look at the game I bet you would find little to complain about. 2nd yellow card was stonewall. Scarlets about to win ball. He looks at the ref - the ref shouts "hands off" he picked it up. Just stupid. good attacking ball ruined, and deliberate as the ref had told him not to do it.. On the edinburgh mall - all the scarlets on thier feet had backed away from the pile of bodies. Edinburgh emerged with the ball at the back and walked 10 m without a scarlet to form a maul.

Suppose there was a lack of replays for the 2nd one but the first was harsh I think - when do you ever see a yellow so early for taking out in the air? Especially when it wasn't overly dangerous.

What makes that so much worse though was a that it was our feckin lineout!!
.
The worst pen of the day was Strauss giving away that ridiculous pen for their 2nd try - he simply has to be dropped.

by TJ Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:57 pm

First was harsh. No doubt. Not wrong but harsh

by TJ Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:58 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:We certainly didn't do enough to deserve to win - the lineout alone was rank amateur.

A draw was probably fair, but we were poor!

not one but two 5m lineouts missed. One a good defensive play mind you and one just a miss, Doh

by glamorganalun Fri 26 Sep 2014, 10:19 pm

To say the first yellow was harsh is rubbish a good call by the ref, he has improved and is one of the better ref's. Some (most) ref's may have given a yellow for taking Williams out in the air!

How the Scarlets lost that game with so much good possession, they need to replace Preistland his kicking was poor, but the kicking by both teams was poor.

Ford's throwing was terrible, why the Scarlets stopped jumping neer their own line I believe was a mistake.

If the Scarlets had half the defence of their opponents they would walked away with 4 points.

by **RDW** Fri 26 Sep 2014, 10:29 pm

I'm not doubting the legitimacy to the letter of the law, but you rarely ever see a yellow given for a first offence like that so early in the game - unless it was unusually dangerous, which I don't think that was.

by **RDW** Fri 26 Sep 2014, 10:32 pm

And for absolute clarity, I'm not saying (and never have said) the ref cost us the game, and he certainly wasn't the worst ref I've seen by a long shot!

Just debating the finer points of the game Very Happy

by Dorothy_Mantooth Fri 26 Sep 2014, 10:33 pm

Good result for Glasgow and the other play off chasing teams, seeing two potential rivals dropping points.

by Majestic83 Fri 26 Sep 2014, 11:23 pm

Watched the game on TV and thought edinburgh were very poor. Too many basic errors which at this level are unacceptable. The other disappointing thing for me was the lack of aggression around the breakdown area.
Improved when Gilchrist came on at 2nd row, he is turning into a bit of a nathan Hines type player which is great to see.
Is it just me or does anyone else think Cornell du Perez has been very poor this season. Looked very lazy around the park quite early on and was not effective.
It is like night and day between edinburgh and Glasgow at the moment. Edinburgh could do with trying to copy a few things from glasgow not just on the pitch but off it too. Great atmosphere at scotstoun and fan base.

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Sep 2014, 12:11 am

Majestic83 wrote:Watched the game on TV and thought edinburgh were very poor. Too many basic errors which at this level are unacceptable. The other disappointing thing for me was the lack of aggression around the breakdown area.
Improved when Gilchrist came on at 2nd row, he is turning into a bit of a nathan Hines type player which is great to see.
Is it just me or does anyone else think Cornell du Perez has been very poor this season. Looked very lazy around the park quite early on and was not effective.
It is like night and day between edinburgh and Glasgow at the moment. Edinburgh could do with trying to copy a few things from glasgow not just on the pitch but off it too. Great atmosphere at scotstoun and fan base.

I also think Du Preez has been just ok so far this season, got outplayed by Leonardi the last two outings. Maybe he has become too complacent knowing he will start whatever he does on the pitch.

That was so much better from Bresler i thought which is very encouraging. Also Andress is looking like a good signing and i would have him ahead of Nel in a heartbeat.

by **RDW** Sat 27 Sep 2014, 9:27 am

I just think the squad are bereft of confidence. Cuthbert is a shadow of the player he was last year (and certainly ain't a winger), and Du Preez isn't hitting his form of last year - although still our better player.

It is probably no coincidence that our two best players last night - Gilchrist and Grant - haven't been involved much the last few weeks.

On that point, Hamish Watson has been a bit of a passenger the past few games. Time for Grant to come back I think.

And if those two come back, we won't need Strauss' leadership Smile

by **BigGee** Sat 27 Sep 2014, 9:41 am

Burleigh did make a difference when he came on, as did Gilchrist. Both should start next week. A centre combo of Burleigh and Beard is pretty solid, Both had good games this week.

It looks like they are going to stick with Heathcote at FH as well. He certainly is some kicker, which Edinburgh can't really afford to be without at the moment and his general play seems to be improving as his confidence comes back as well. He and Tonks are definitely two of the better Edinburgh backs at the moment and I think they both need to play, certainly until more players are back fit again. With Weir playing well again and Russell fit again, I am not sure that either are going to be in Scotland contention unless there are some injuries.

It was not great but at least they stuck in there. Keeping themselves in the game when it all seems to be going against you is a good sign and they did play much better in the second half, eventually taking their chances as Scarlets dropped off. There was definitely some redemption there after last week, but still a long way to go.

by Nematode Sat 27 Sep 2014, 11:06 am

Hey, been really busy with work recently and that looks set to continue so my posts will be limited :/

Here's my assessment:

Negatives

- Our back line lacks any real potency. Beard is OK in defence, however, both himself and Strauss offer nothing in attack like Scott, Bennett or Dunbar. A solution may be to move Tonks into the centre as he seems like the only back wanting to attack the line.
- There seemed to be no exit plan co-ordination.
- No strategy/game plan was evident. Edinburgh seemed to just absorb and then 'give-it-a-go'.
- Positioning seems off (for L William's try)

Positives

- Ross Ford: his lineout throwing is much improved and he was tackling players hard and forcing them back.

Overall (past 4 matches)

- I think the jury's still out on Tom Heathcote. He's been good in defence but hasn't really attacked too strikingly.
- I really can't see any Edinburgh players making a Scotland XV if our best XV was to be chosen immediately, maybe only Ford.

But...

We still have a few players to come back to make up:
Tonks, Brown, Fife, Scott, Visser, Heathcote, Hart, Denton, Grant, Du Preez/Leonardi, Gilchrist, Bresler, ?, Ford, Dickinson.

Who knows, there may be some encouragement to come,

by **RDW** Sat 27 Sep 2014, 11:12 am

Nematode - are you making a joke about Ford?? Need you not see the shambolic lineout?? Yes it wasn't all his fault, but his throwing didn't help.

by VinceWLB Sat 27 Sep 2014, 11:19 am

Yeah his throwing improved from last season but still needs a lot of work, lots of his throws reached the jumper's stomach which make it easy for Shingler to steal them.

Thought it got better when Gilchrist came on but as soon as i wrote that we lost like 2 or 3 consecutive lineouts picard

by Cardiff Dave Sat 27 Sep 2014, 10:00 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I must have missed the bit in the coaching manual that read ' game is tied, you are on the attack time is running so you kick the ball away to the oppositon'

A real "WTF! Kick the cat" moment that was. Straight into the arms of the FB too. What was going through his mind and did he look?

by cakeordeath Sun 28 Sep 2014, 12:02 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Nematode - are you making a joke about Ford?? Need you not see the shambolic lineout?? Yes it wasn't all his fault, but his throwing didn't help.

Nematode are you actually Ross Ford in disguise? Is the real reason you haven't been around because you were practicing your lineout throws, because if so it ain't working. Hug

by **George Carlin** Sun 28 Sep 2014, 2:21 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Nematode - are you making a joke about Ford?? Need you not see the shambolic lineout?? Yes it wasn't all his fault, but his throwing didn't help.

Nematode are you actually Ross Ford in disguise? Is the real reason you haven't been around because you were practicing your lineout throws, because if so it ain't working.

Can't be. Everyone knows that nematodes are devastatingly effective on grass. Ross Ford on the other hand...

by jimbopip Sun 28 Sep 2014, 4:35 pm

If Ross Ford was on grass that would explain a lot.
drumroll

by InjuredYetAgain Sun 28 Sep 2014, 8:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not doubting the legitimacy to the letter of the law, but you rarely ever see a yellow given for a first offence like that so early in the game - unless it was unusually dangerous, which I don't think that was.

Spoken like a winger, RDW. Trust me, it doesn't matter when in the match it happens but taking out a jumper or one their lifters is extremely dangerous. Trust me I know from bitter experience.
I am 6'3 and had to use every millimetre of that height in a salmon-sequence manoeuvre to try to make our hooker look better than he really was when one of the opposition took out one of my lifters who himself was over 6 feet. It is a very long way to fall.
See those dirty barstewards from Haddington ......... what say you in their defence Majestic. Eh? Eh? boxing

by **George Carlin** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 7:28 am

InjuredYetAgain wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not doubting the legitimacy to the letter of the law, but you rarely ever see a yellow given for a first offence like that so early in the game - unless it was unusually dangerous, which I don't think that was.
Spoken like a winger, RDW. Trust me, it doesn't matter when in the match it happens but taking out a jumper or one their lifters is extremely dangerous. Trust me I know from bitter experience.
I am 6'3 and had to use every millimetre of that height in a salmon-sequence manoeuvre to try to make our hooker look better than he really was when one of the opposition took out one of my lifters who himself was over 6 feet. It is a very long way to fall.
See those dirty barstewards from Haddington ......... what say you in their defence Majestic. Eh? Eh?

by Seagultaf Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:12 am

Can any Scarlet’s fans out there cast any light on their problems this season? The scrum that was their most potent weapon last season is being pushed around by sides not known for their scrummaging. Also they seem to run out of wind in the second half and ship soft points, is it a fitness problem?

by des Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:28 am

I'm not a Scarlets fan but the main difference from last year was the number of times you got the ball to your backs. Edinburgh just cannot defend against good back play. I think they have a zoned defence system and when ever someone runs across the field they don't seem to know who should make the tackle. What I noticed on Friday was the you didn't seem to move the ball to your backs as much. It was taken into contact in midfield much more readily than I remember from last year too. Which is not your strong point.

Also worth adding. Liam Williams might be a stroppy turd but he is very good. I cannot believe how much ground he makes when taking the ball into contact given his size. He just seems to wriggle through somehow. Maybe it's his bandy legs.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:36 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Best ref in the Pro 12 that doesn't know the rules, and gives one team 2 harsh yellow cards and doesn't penalise the other until 70 minutes despite repeated infringements?

To be fair, if that's all that is contentious then he definitely is one of the best refs in the Pro 12!

Really??? Cuthbert should have seen red within the opening ten minutes, and sure as hell if it were Sanjay wasting him in the air, and not the other way around it would have been a red too. That is IMO why your No.8 went for taking Shingler in the line, as it was too similar an incident (and too close to the first) to go unpunished.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:42 am

I haven't seen the game or the highlights, but I'm actually quite pleased with that result (and if it's true that we were poor then at least we have room for better results going forward).

I'd like Burleigh and Beard to play centre next time around. Strauss out.

by **George Carlin** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:55 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:I haven't seen the game or the highlights, but I'm actually quite pleased with that result (and if it's true that we were poor then at least we have room for better results going forward).

I'd like Burleigh and ~~Beard~~ GC's Uncle Dougie to play centre next time around. Strauss out.

Smart choice. He's been champing at the bit to smack someone since the referendum.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 29 Sep 2014, 12:06 pm

Ah, presumably Uncle Dougie attended the oddly named "voice of the people" rally in Edinburgh on Saturday calling for another referendum!! 90,000 lunatics right there.

by **RDW** Mon 29 Sep 2014, 12:58 pm

FES - I don't think your opinion of Strauss will change much when you watch his contribution from 1:40 leading up to their 2nd try...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29402176

by LordDowlais Mon 29 Sep 2014, 1:02 pm

I told you all how close this game would be when you were all crying into your pillows at the start of this thread after the Ospreys result, perhaps you lot should look at the more positive things your regions can do rather than keep looking at the negatives, but I do have to say I did not think it would be so close you could not separate the score. Laugh

by funnyExiledScot Mon 29 Sep 2014, 4:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:FES - I don't think your opinion of Strauss will change much when you watch his contribution from 1:40 leading up to their 2nd try...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29402176

Should he collect the ball from behind the Edinburgh posts during the 1872 Cup game, beat all 15 opposition players in a lung busting length of the field effort whilst somehow simultaneously unveiling a T-shirt proclaiming his support for the Union en route to the Cup clinching 7 pointer (which he converts himself) - my view of Strauss shall remain unchanged. He is useless.

by TJ Mon 29 Sep 2014, 5:48 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Best ref in the Pro 12 that doesn't know the rules, and gives one team 2 harsh yellow cards and doesn't penalise the other until 70 minutes despite repeated infringements?

To be fair, if that's all that is contentious then he definitely is one of the best refs in the Pro 12!

Really??? Cuthbert should have seen red within the opening ten minutes, and sure as hell if it were Sanjay wasting him in the air, and not the other way around it would have been a red too. That is IMO why your No.8 went for taking Shingler in the line, as it was too similar an incident (and too close to the first) to go unpunished.

What? Cuthbert red? what for?

THe first yellow was harsh. Look at it again. He goes for the ball and gets tangled in the opposition player. He does not pull him down. He does not fall badly. Penalty for sure - yellow - 50/50

by The Great Aukster Mon 29 Sep 2014, 7:43 pm

TJ wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Best ref in the Pro 12 that doesn't know the rules, and gives one team 2 harsh yellow cards and doesn't penalise the other until 70 minutes despite repeated infringements?

To be fair, if that's all that is contentious then he definitely is one of the best refs in the Pro 12!

Really??? Cuthbert should have seen red within the opening ten minutes, and sure as hell if it were Sanjay wasting him in the air, and not the other way around it would have been a red too. That is IMO why your No.8 went for taking Shingler in the line, as it was too similar an incident (and too close to the first) to go unpunished.

What? Cuthbert red? what for?

THe first yellow was harsh. Look at it again. He goes for the ball and gets tangled in the opposition player. He does not pull him down. He does not fall badly. Penalty for sure - yellow - 50/50

Don't complain about the ref too much - if it had been Garces it would have been a cast iron red.

by TJ Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:10 pm

I ain't complaining - I thought the ref got it right and had a very good game. the only things was the first yellow - not wrong but harsh. Otherwise I thought Lacey was very good indeed

by Nematode Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:35 pm

http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/14/09/28/edinburgh-rugby-fly-victory-over-sale-jets

Edinburgh A game

by LordDowlais Tue 30 Sep 2014, 8:14 am

Lacey was a breath of fresh air on Friday night, he got every call RIGHT, and he did not use the TMO as a cop out and he tried to let the game flow, a lot of other refs should look at his performance from friday night and take note.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 30 Sep 2014, 9:33 am

TJ did you not see him steam straight through Sanjay in the air without any attempt at catching the ball? The first pen of the game? Definitely as bad as the Jarred Payne incident if not worse. Now I am not running down the ref for not making the call, but I am saying if Liam Williams did it there would have been hell on here about it. And seeing as the pulling in the lineout was not too much later, and again a dangerous (as opposed to pre-meditated and vicious) act, it needed to be punished.

There was one more incident in the game I was thinking about. Embra's try before half time, as the long ball was floated out to the wing, the Scarlets winger (Harry Robinson) jumped and swiped at the ball in the air. He had no chance of catching it, so was IMO attempting to deliberately knock on. Is there anyway a ref can punish attempted cheating, that failed?

by tigertattie Tue 30 Sep 2014, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Lacey was a breath of fresh air on Friday night, he got every call RIGHT, and he did not use the TMO as a cop out and he tried to let the game flow, a lot of other refs should look at his performance from friday night and take note.

Eh, like giving a 22 drop out from a restart that was dotted down over the try line? Ross Ford even tried to point out his error but he had none of it! Or the countless squint throws into the lineout by the Scarlets? There was no need for them to put in squint throws anyway beacuse Edinburgh were that garbage in the lineout!

I can fully understand refs missing the occasional forward pass beacuse of the angle they happen to be at, or giving a 50/50 call one way or the other. But pro refs should know the rules of the game!

by TJ Tue 30 Sep 2014, 7:02 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:TJ did you not see him steam straight through Sanjay in the air without any attempt at catching the ball?

I don't remeber it - I might have missed the first fgew mins. Not saying it didn't happen

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There was one more incident in the game I was thinking about. Embra's try before half time, as the long ball was floated out to the wing, the Scarlets winger (Harry Robinson) jumped and swiped at the ball in the air. He had no chance of catching it, so was IMO attempting to deliberately knock on. Is there anyway a ref can punish attempted cheating, that failed?

Dunno really. If he didn't touch the ball is there any offense?

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