Hibbard - something doesn't add up...

BBC wrote:Wales forwards coach Robin McBryde has warned hooker Richard Hibbard he is "playing with fire" if he is injured for Gloucester on Friday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30055877

Something doesn't smell right here...

I thought he was being rested, but it seems he wasn't selected due to a foot injury. If that is the case, why has he been released back to Gloucester for this weekend. If he wasn't released, how come he has left camp. If he has been released from camp BECAUSE of an injury, why would Gloucester pick him. Are Gloucester ALLOWED to pick him whilst selected for national duties within IRB agreed window.

I don't follow this, it just doesn't add up, there has to be something else going on here... anyone have any ideas or even info that sheds a light...

From the western mail

The Lions hooker was ruled out of contention for tomorrow’s second autumn international against Fiji at the Millennium Stadium by an ankle injury.

But because he was not selected in the match-day squad, under IRB rules Wales had to comply with a request from Gloucester for him to return to the club.

And now, despite his ankle problem, he has been named on the bench by the Cherry and Whites for this evening’s Aviva Premiership clash with Gloucester at Kingsholm.

McBride said

“At the request of Gloucester, we’ve had to release him back because he’s not in the match-day squad.

“He has been named on the bench for them and if you are on the bench that deems you fit and having to play a full 80 minutes.

“There’s no such thing as just providing cover.

“I understand there are a couple of injuries with regard to the hooker position in Gloucester.

“However if he does take the field of play, then obviously he jeopardises his inclusion next week from a fitness point of view.”

Sounds like the WRU were forced to release him so have no option. Surprised that Gloucester re-considered his fitness after the welsh camp had said he was injured.

Well is he injured or not?

How can the WRU 'be forced' to release anyone if its in the IRB window? I read a report he was released back to recieve treatment and then all of a sudden he's on their bench.

What (if anything) is stopping the WRU re-calling him back to the squad, let's say Baldwin or Phillips takes a knock in training today?

maestegmafia wrote:

But because he was not selected in the match-day squad, under IRB rules Wales had to comply with a request from Gloucester for him to return to the club.

I knew that if not selected the club could request the player is made available, but I thought if the player was deemed unfit for selection, the rule didnt apply. So this is news to me...

Its a complete farse though, if the player is not selected due to medical advice at the national level, simply to be recalledby his club and then selected. Surely the IRB should re-look at this one, if nothng more than in the interest of the players health.

Thanks all for clearing this up... and I hope Gloucester see sence and drop him from the bench. After all, if this turned into a serious injury then they would lose out long term...

I don't know what dialogue there has been between Gloucester and Wales but it strikes me as fairly amateur by the Welsh Management to threaten a player through the media.
Gloucester haven't broken any regulations and I would think Hibbard would want to play if he is fit enough. I can't believe Gloucester would bench him if either their medical staff or Hibbard himself thought he wasn't fit.

It is interesting. Hopefully Hibbard plays and stays fit. Nobody wants to see a player injured.

What are the hooker problems like at Gloucester? Is a 40% fit Hibbard better than their other bench option for the game?

I'll be there tonight, and I will wish him well and cheer him on when he comes off the bench.

No9 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

But because he was not selected in the match-day squad, under IRB rules Wales had to comply with a request from Gloucester for him to return to the club.

I knew that if not selected the club could request the player is made available, but I thought if the player was deemed unfit for selection, the rule didnt apply. So this is news to me...

Its a complete farse though, if the player is not selected due to medical advice at the national level, simply to be recalledby his club and then selected. Surely the IRB should re-look at this one, if nothng more than in the interest of the players health.

Thanks all for clearing this up... and I hope Gloucester see sence and drop him from the bench. After all, if this turned into a serious injury then they would lose out long term...

From a player insurance point of view, if the national team has reported a player injured then any costs there would come off the WRU insurance. For Gloucester, demanding the player back, if god forbid there is an aggrevation to the injury, it could be possible that the player insurance at the club wouldn't cover if he ends up being out for a long time.

It does make you wander if Hibbard was truly injured was his foot/ or rather how bad was his foot when he came off? Or was it more of a sprain then an injurie?

It still beggers belief that he can be declared (unfit) for international duty. yet he can be declared (fit) for club duty.

I think the sooner wales get their top players back playing in Wales the better. This stinks of club melding and to the likely detriment of the players welfare.

Well maybe Hibbard said he was fit and wanted to play for Wales, and the WRU said he wasn't fit as they wanted him to rest for their next big game.

It's kind of the only explanation that makes sense. The WRU were gambling that Hibbard wouldn't tell Glaws he was actually fit.

quinsforever wrote:Well maybe Hibbard said he was fit and wanted to play for Wales, and the WRU said he wasn't fit as they wanted him to rest for their next big game.

It's kind of the only explanation that makes sense. The WRU were gambling that Hibbard wouldn't tell Glaws he was actually fit.

Very bizzarre conclusion. More likely Gloucester have exploited a loop hole in the regulations. Welsh players in England a constantly at loggerheads with the PRL or the clubs trying to get release for international duty, it has been the same story for ten years.

A player can declare himself unfit. Hibbard obviously hasn't. Looks like WRU trying to have their cake and eat it.

quinsforever wrote:A player can declare himself unfit. Hibbard obviously hasn't. Looks like WRU trying to have their cake and eat it.

Far more likely that Gloucester are trying to pick their best team to get a win over quins. What the WRU have done is by the book. Gloucester are taking advantage of that.

Very unsporting.

The WRU should know better than to trust English rugby clubs to do the right thing, it is not in their nature if a trick can be turned in their favour.

Well Humpreys has just said that yesterday the Welsh camp were fine with him being on the bench. He's not sure what's happened in the last day.

Onto the regulations, well fitness is arbitrary, many players say they rarely play when 100% fit. How injured Hibbard is we don't know. Would he have been selected if it was the All Blacks tomorrow? But any players called up, who are not in the match day squad should be released to their domestic team (obviously, if requested).

Edit: but as Maesteg said, if you want complete control over the players...have hem at home, with a good agreement with the local teams. The England camp control all EPS players' fitness and can demand players rested if their doctors see them as unfit, regardless of what the club thinks or when in the season it is. I can only think of it happening once (Sackey around 2008/09)

So David Humphries stated tonight that Glaws were in contact with the WElsh management yesterday and 'it was very clear that they were very happy that Richard was going to be involved tonight and sit on the bench for us''

Clearly McBride iis talking out of turn & going to the press makes him look very dim.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well Humpreys has just said that yesterday the Welsh camp were fine with him being on the bench. He's not sure what's happened in the last day.

Can you post your link to Humphreys saying that?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:So David Humphries stated tonight that Glaws were in contact with the WElsh management yesterday and 'it was very clear that they were very happy that Richard was going to be involved tonight and sit on the bench for us''

Clearly McBride iis talking out of turn & going to the press makes him look very dim.

So it's one mans word against another?

And predictably you think the Welshman, is not telling the truth...

Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

As I said above the wru don't learn... The English clubs are not to be trusted.

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

Well that doesn't make sense because he was either fit or not. Because he now isn't available for the Boks game doesn't suddenly make him unfit.

He isn't fit, he has an ankle injury. He could not train with Wales this week so he wasn't in contention for selection vs Fiji.

Gloucester have exploited the situation

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

I thought David Humphreys was Irish

Just saw him at Gloucester. Didn't seem happy.

Maesteg, it was a live interview on BTSport before the Quins game so no link, sorry.

If it was an agreement with Gloucester to release him for South Africa instead then it pretty disingenuous from WRU (and Gloucester as they KNOW the PRL stance, that they voted on and agreed). But that's one random on the internet (sorry No9) so pretty meaningless at the minute.

I hope that Wales select some English base players for an international match against the PRL's will, and push the RFU on this stupid situation. Every other nations union in world rugby can deal with play release.

maestegmafia wrote:I hope that Wales select some English base players for a match against the PRL

Match against the PRL? Did you mean something else?

HammerofThunor wrote:Maesteg, it was a live interview on BTSport before the Quins game so no link, sorry.

If it was an agreement with Gloucester to release him for South Africa instead then it pretty disingenuous from WRU (and Gloucester as they KNOW the PRL stance, that they voted on and agreed). But that's one random on the internet (sorry No9) so pretty meaningless at the minute.

That's ok, I appreciate that I can't back this up as its word and mouth. But it is from a very good mate I've known for over 30 years. I was his best man and he mine, so I trust his word and he is fairly influential in Gloucester Rugby, I can't say any more to protect him as I have been told in confidence...

It was a under the table agreement, which could be why they said injured, or maybe he is... The bit I have an issue with is the gullibility of the WRU and why they didn't question if the PRL would allow it...

I believe this to be true, for the trust reason I mention earlier, but I do accept it may be wrong

No9 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Maesteg, it was a live interview on BTSport before the Quins game so no link, sorry.

If it was an agreement with Gloucester to release him for South Africa instead then it pretty disingenuous from WRU (and Gloucester as they KNOW the PRL stance, that they voted on and agreed). But that's one random on the internet (sorry No9) so pretty meaningless at the minute.

That's ok, I appreciate that I can't back this up as its word and mouth. But it is from a very good mate I've known for over 30 years. I was his best man and he mine, so I trust his word and he is fairly influential in Gloucester Rugby, I can't say any more to protect him as I have been told in confidence...

It was a under the table agreement, which could be why they said injured, or maybe he is... The bit I have an issue with is the gullibility of the WRU and why they didn't question if the PRL would allow it...

I believe this to be true, for the trust reason I mention earlier, but I do accept it may be wrong

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

I thought David Humphreys was Irish

Yep, but he's just one off the puppets not the puppet master.

Right I've got to be elsewhere, so have to go now the Glaws/Quinns game is getting interesting...

Offline now till Monday, have a great weekend all and hope the rugby this weekend lives up to our expectations...

I think we'll lose (working tomorrow which is pain, but everything is set to record) but good luck all.

Hibbard is on for the last five minutes

Out of curiosity can anyone else find anything from earlier in the week that said Hibbard wasn't considered fit for the weekend? In the BBC article for the squad announcement he wasn't mentioned at all (which is odd in itself, usually they say something for the players missing, injured, dropped, rested, etc).

Slightly different take on it from Edwards yesterday.

Shaun Edwards wrote:Defence coach Shaun Edwards said: “He has been released back and like a lot of players who are released he has been selected by his club and I think he is on the bench for Gloucester this weekend.

“He didn’t get picked for the Fiji game. It wasn’t a case of him getting dropped. We just rotated the three hookers.

“He had a bit of a bad foot as well. It was Warren’s decision to release him. We didn’t have to release him back.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-vs-fiji-richard-hibbard-8104541

HT the PRL agreement with the clubs is designed to make sure player welfare is upheld is it not?

Does this only apply to English players?

Do you mean the RFU agreement with the PRL? Because the PRL ARE the clubs. If so...

It's to give the England camp control over a selected group of England players. It's got nothing to players in general. The PGB sort that out, which includes the RPA.

This ol' RFU/PRL underground deal is getting into all walks of life. It Must Be Stopped! Or the Human race is in Grave Danger!

No9 wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

I thought David Humphreys was Irish

Yep, but he's just one off the puppets not the puppet master.

Well the 'Welsh 'puppet master' that is Gats made the decision to release him according to Edwards

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

No9 wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

No9 wrote:Just heard from a mate of mine who's involved with Gloucester Rugby. He said, earlier in the week, Gloucester agreed with WRU that we could have Hibbs for Boks game, if we released him this week. They have gone back on that agreement as now the PRL have blocked it and said no. Hence the WRU ok yesterday, but p1ssed off today, but can't now do anything about it.

Moral of the story is don't have a gentlemans agreement with an Englishman...

I thought David Humphreys was Irish

Yep, but he's just one off the puppets not the puppet master.

Well the 'Welsh 'puppet master' that is Gats made the decision to release him according to Edwards

Gatland is the coach, same position as David Humphreys is at Gloucester.

Tell Gatland that the injured Hibbard threw himself around Kingsholm at the Quins attack like a man possessed last night, although we still lost. I'm looking forward to the fully fit Hibbard if that is what the injured version looks like.

There are few things I cant understand, some reports say that because he wasn't in the match day squad the WRU 'had to release him' - My understanding is that because it was in the IRB Window the WRU doesn't have to release anyone, they could if wished keep all players in the camp whether they are in match day squads or not.

Also once the WRU found out that he was on the bench they could have re-called him to the Welsh squad, even if under the premise of maybe Baldwin or Phillips being injured.

Is it possible that maybe a deal has been done where by Hibbard is free for the Boks game?

Gloucester only played him for about 10 mins so you could say he has been ' rested'. He looked in good Nick, so the South African theory may well be what it has been about.

bedfordwelsh wrote:There are few things I cant understand, some reports say that because he wasn't in the match day squad the WRU 'had to release him' - My understanding is that because it was in the IRB Window the WRU doesn't have to release anyone, they could if wished keep all players in the camp whether they are in match day squads or not.

Also once the WRU found out that he was on the bench they could have re-called him to the Welsh squad, even if under the premise of maybe Baldwin or Phillips being injured.?

According to another report if a player is not in a match day squad then his club can ask for him to be released by the squad and the union have to comply whether they wish to or not.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Is it possible that maybe a deal has been done where by Hibbard is free for the Boks game?

The PRL only let some nations teams have players outside the IRB window on deals like that. They do not let Welsh players for some reason.

maestegmafia wrote:They do not let Welsh players for some reason.

The reason is plain: the WRU has never made a proposal to the PRL.

The WRU don't talk to the PRL do they? And which teams do they let have players? England (a small part of a much bigger deal, and it's only every other year). USA recently for their big game (US don't have any games scheduled this Autumn.

HammerofThunor wrote:The WRU don't talk to the PRL do they? And which teams do they let have players? England (a small part of a much bigger deal, and it's only every other year). USA recently for their big game (US don't have any games scheduled this Autumn.

The USA are playing the following four internationals according to their website.

November 21, 2014 vs. Fiji 1:00 PM ET Fall Tour
November 15, 2014 vs. Tonga 11:45 AM ET Fall Tour
November 08, 2014 vs. Romania W27-17 Fall Tour
November 01, 2014 vs. All Blacks L6-74 USA v All Blacks

That is four internationals exactly the same as Wales, and the Eagles players were released for the ABs outside of the IRB window.

Is that because it is in the PRLs interest to release in one case, but not in the other...???

You would have thought after all that cosying up with Wales to try and get us to back the PRLs Euro rugby concept that they would be rolling over and having their belly tickled for Wales.