State of the team: England

by nathan Sat 21 Mar 2015, 7:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

by Poorfour Tue 28 Apr 2015, 1:57 pm

On a completely different note, I watched Sam Burgess playing at 6 for Bath on Friday night, and I am happy to admit I was wrong.

He looked far more at home on the flank than he did at centre, didn't make any obvious mistakes and clearly terrified defences. While I would stop short of Austin Healey's giving him MOTM, I think I'm finally beginning to realise what the fuss is about.

Really looking forward to seeing him close up at the Stoop when Bath come to Quins.

And I am now keen to see him join the England summer training camp, rather than just resigned to it happening. He may not be quite ready to be in the final squad, but I'm happy to trust the coaches' judgement on whether to include him.

Anyone else feel the same way, or have I just got sunstroke?

by BamBam Tue 28 Apr 2015, 4:26 pm

I need to watch the game, but that is really good to hear

by hugehandoff Tue 28 Apr 2015, 4:56 pm

I also did not see the game, but of course it was pleasing to hear. It was interesting to hear Mike Ford's comments in that Burgess in rugby league would do 55 ordinary things and 5 world class in an average match. As he is still new in the union game he has not been able to deliver the world class bits yet, but MAY in time. He will be included in the large RWC training squad purely to assist his education with a view to him making a longer term impact next year and the year after. There is so much to learn at 6 and such strong competition that he will have to go some to make the England team. Jury remains firmly out for me, but I wish him well.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 28 Apr 2015, 5:02 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I also did not see the game, but of course it was pleasing to hear. It was interesting to hear Mike Ford's comments in that Burgess in rugby league would do 55 ordinary things and 5 world class in an average match. As he is still new in the union game he has not been able to deliver the world class bits yet, but MAY in time. He will be included in the large RWC training squad purely to assist his education with a view to him making a longer term impact next year and the year after. There is so much to learn at 6 and such strong competition that he will have to go some to make the England team. Jury remains firmly out for me, but I wish him well.

The very nature of RL would see Burgess far more involved than he will ever be in Union. I suspect that he will be more involved in both attack and defence than he ever could be in the centre.

by Gwlad Tue 28 Apr 2015, 5:49 pm

I love it, Woodward wins you a RWC but is criticized for no succession planning afterwards. Well Bomber certainly has that covered, he has so many young players in the mix the one rule change needed is that 23 players can take the field at any one time. Still largely a mystery as to who owns what shirt though.

by majesticimperialman Tue 28 Apr 2015, 8:58 pm

Gwlad.

Why should any one be allowed to own a shirt in an international squad. Surely this way it keeps every body on their toes, and stop's players becoming complacent.

by Gwlad Wed 29 Apr 2015, 2:36 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwlad.

Why should any one be allowed to own a shirt in an international squad. Surely this way it keeps every body on their toes, and stop's players becoming complacent.

Genius spin of Alistair Campbell esque proportions!!! Laugh

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr 2015, 8:09 am

Come on Gwlad I'm sure I've seen you Welsh fans criticise some aspects of your world cup winning coach!

by Gwlad Wed 29 Apr 2015, 8:22 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Come on Gwlad I'm sure I've seen you Welsh fans criticise some aspects of your ~~world cup~~ Lions series and multiple Grand Slam winning coach!

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr 2015, 8:28 am

Could have sworn you won it last time. Don't remember Wales getting beaten just the other teams scoring more points!

by Geordie Wed 29 Apr 2015, 8:47 am

Gwlad wrote:I love it, Woodward wins you a RWC but is criticized for no succession planning afterwards. Well Bomber certainly has that covered, he has so many young players in the mix the one rule change needed is that 23 players can take the field at any one time. Still largely a mystery as to who owns what shirt though.

It is a huge fact though Gwlad. He was superbly focused on winning a WC which everyone totally respects....but the the adverse affect was that there was no future planning...and once that aging side retired almost on mass....England were in trouble.

by lostinwales Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:42 am

We were also unlucky with injuries. Woodman would have had a decent career with England had he not had to retire, Steve Thompson too (although he came back).

Richard Hill would probably still be playing if his leg wasn't so messed up.

by yappysnap Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:49 am

Ellis at Tigers too

by king_carlos Wed 29 Apr 2015, 12:03 pm

Richard Blaze also at Tigers was considered by many to be Johnsons long term successor for club and country.

Wilkinsons absence from 03-07 is well known. As are the stories with Tom Rees and James Simpson-Daniel.

Olly Morgan had all the attributes to be an excellent international FB if not for his injury record.

James Forrester looked like a huge talent in the back row offering real pace and link-play we desperately needed during the 'dark years'. Retired early due to injury. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B00Kh5g7JSQ

Jason Robinson retired early then returned. Same with Dallagio.

Stuart Abbot looked like he was being lined-up as a possible replacement for Greenwood before injury and early retirement.

Dan Ward-Smith looked like the ball carrying 8 we desperately needed but caught the JSD curse of getting injured every time he was called up.

Complete loss of form also played its part. Cohen was lethal and Ballshaw a huge talent in 03 with both disappearing and never regaining their consistency or potency at International level soon after.

Hell we already have the making of a half decent XV from those:

1.Woodman
2.Thompson
3.
4.Blaze
5.
6.Forrester
7.Rees
8.Ward-Smith

9.Ellis
10.Wilkinson

11.Cohen or Ballshaw
12.Abbott
13.
14.Simpson-Daniel
15.Morgan

by cb Wed 29 Apr 2015, 12:23 pm

But people like Simon Shaw were around for another ten years. So though injuries did not help may be it was just a normal cycle of events with a few lean years. Other countries caught up of course.

What has helped England in the last few years are the young players coming via the U20 route. Hopefully this can continue. The talent looks to be there, but can it be harnessed?

by Gwlad Wed 29 Apr 2015, 4:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could have sworn you won it last time. Don't remember Wales getting beaten just the other teams scoring more points!

Did you think that line up on your own or borrow someone's brain to do it?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr 2015, 4:09 pm

Hmm, kids back home from school I see.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr 2015, 4:55 pm

Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Could have sworn you won it last time. Don't remember Wales getting beaten just the other teams scoring more points!

Did you think that line up on your own or borrow someone's brain to do it?

No I stole it. Fairly wide spread reflecting the arrogance of some Welsh fans not all. There's a fair few decent ones on this site.

by Geordie Thu 30 Apr 2015, 11:00 am

Was it Ollie Smith at Leicester who was an OC that people had huge hope in?

by BamBam Thu 30 Apr 2015, 12:15 pm

Ah yeah, that's the guy I was thinking of too, although Tait was another candidate for 13

by BamBam Thu 30 Apr 2015, 12:16 pm

And Dan Hipkiss! So many names from years gone by

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 30 Apr 2015, 2:10 pm

Not sure if he has been mentioned, but Josh Lewsey's career was cut short by injury, other very promising players who retired very early were Paul Hull and Matt Perry. Perry in particular was a very fine 15, could have been world class if he had stayed fit.

by Steve_rugby Thu 30 Apr 2015, 9:34 pm

It was the RFU that were responsible for the lack of future plannning, it's the reason why SCW resigned his post.

Let's not forget that England got to the final of RWC 2007 and we were told that it was nothing to celebrate by plenty of Welsh "fans", yet when Wales managed the heady heights of finishing 4th in 2011, that was cause for a reason to celebrate. picard

by Gwlad Thu 30 Apr 2015, 11:23 pm

There is no comparison of the rugby resources in Wales v England, hence the utter mess over selection that England has got itself into. And 2007, you came 2nd again eh, just like in how many 6 Nations campaigns since 2003!! laughing

by The Saint Thu 30 Apr 2015, 11:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Could have sworn you won it last time. Don't remember Wales getting beaten just the other teams scoring more points!

Did you think that line up on your own or borrow someone's brain to do it?

No I stole it. Fairly wide spread reflecting the arrogance of some Welsh fans not all. There's a fair few decent ones on this site.

Thanks

.

by Geordie Fri 01 May 2015, 8:37 am

Gwlad wrote: There is no comparison of the rugby resources in Wales v England, hence the utter mess over selection that England has got itself into. And 2007, you came 2nd again eh, just like in how many 6 Nations campaigns since 2003!!

We've got to give the minions something to keep them interested.....

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 01 May 2015, 8:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gwlad wrote: There is no comparison of the rugby resources in Wales v England, hence the utter mess over selection that England has got itself into. And 2007, you came 2nd again eh, just like in how many 6 Nations campaigns since 2003!!

We've got to give the minions something to keep them interested.....

Wouldn't the Welsh just love to come second in a RWC, the best they have EVER achieved is a semi and that gave most of them a hard on they will never forget. Just imagine Gwlad if they ever reached a final. If they won it (fairy tale thought), he would have a seizure, to have achieved a win plus two finals and having made the semi finals on most occasions (can't be bothered to look up the right number) is so incomprehensible to such as him as to be Terry Pratchett.

When it really counts at the best tournament in the rugby world, only one NH country has any pedigree, Grand Slams are good but now matter how many you have, against the best, only achievement at the RWC counts on the world stage.

by beshocked Tue 05 May 2015, 10:48 am

What's the point of having a dick measuring contest with a Welsh WUM?

England need to aspire to be best in the world.

The ABs are the benchmark.

England need to improve their ability to pick out the players with the most potential and develop them to suit the gameplan we want.

Also England needs to pick the best coaches - let's be honest do any of us really think that Mike Catt and Andy Farrell are the best coaches in England? I certainly don't!

Personally I would pick Burgess and Itoje in the extended RWC squad - big gamble perhaps but I like their potential for different reasons.

by Geordie Tue 05 May 2015, 10:51 am

Also England needs to pick the best coaches - let's be honest do any of us really think that Mike Catt and Andy Farrell are the best coaches in England? I certainly don't!

I think your correct....

by Welly Tue 05 May 2015, 1:45 pm

Slater and Launch both to feature this weekend.

by majesticimperialman Tue 05 May 2015, 7:46 pm

I am getting a little worried about ( cover) at full back. Ben Foden, will not be avalible Mike Brown is/ was the inform full back. untill he had his head injurie that is. so at the moment Alex Goode seems to be the first choice full back. but who do we have as cover?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 May 2015, 8:21 pm

Watson, Pennell, Nowell, Abendanon in no order.

by Gwlad Wed 06 May 2015, 1:26 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gwlad wrote: There is no comparison of the rugby resources in Wales v England, hence the utter mess over selection that England has got itself into. And 2007, you came 2nd again eh, just like in how many 6 Nations campaigns since 2003!!

We've got to give the minions something to keep them interested.....

Wouldn't the Welsh just love to come second in a RWC, the best they have EVER achieved is a semi and that gave most of them a hard on they will never forget. Just imagine Gwlad if they ever reached a final. If they won it (fairy tale thought), he would have a seizure, to have achieved a win plus two finals and having made the semi finals on most occasions (can't be bothered to look up the right number) is so incomprehensible to such as him as to be Terry Pratchett.

When it really counts at the best tournament in the rugby world, only one NH country has any pedigree, Grand Slams are good but now matter how many you have, against the best, only achievement at the RWC counts on the world stage.

You forgot to mention 1966 as well Rolling Eyes

Fact is your pedigree is off chum.

by BamBam Wed 06 May 2015, 9:58 am

Welly wrote:Slater and Launch both to feature this weekend.

Excellent!

by Geordie Wed 06 May 2015, 11:21 am

What's peoples thoughts on those long term injured.

Is their lack of match practice over the last 6 months an issue? Or by the time the WC comes about will everyone be in the same boat lacking match practice and its more about their fitness and conditioning.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 May 2015, 11:52 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What's peoples thoughts on those long term injured.

Is their lack of match practice over the last 6 months an issue? Or by the time the WC comes about will everyone be in the same boat lacking match practice and its more about their fitness and conditioning.

I think lack of match practice now is irrelevant come September.

by BamBam Wed 06 May 2015, 12:10 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11585016/Manu-Tuilagi-injury-setback-leaves-England-sweating.html

Talking of long term injured

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 06 May 2015, 12:40 pm

Gwlad wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gwlad wrote: There is no comparison of the rugby resources in Wales v England, hence the utter mess over selection that England has got itself into. And 2007, you came 2nd again eh, just like in how many 6 Nations campaigns since 2003!!

We've got to give the minions something to keep them interested.....

Wouldn't the Welsh just love to come second in a RWC, the best they have EVER achieved is a semi and that gave most of them a hard on they will never forget. Just imagine Gwlad if they ever reached a final. If they won it (fairy tale thought), he would have a seizure, to have achieved a win plus two finals and having made the semi finals on most occasions (can't be bothered to look up the right number) is so incomprehensible to such as him as to be Terry Pratchett.

When it really counts at the best tournament in the rugby world, only one NH country has any pedigree, Grand Slams are good but now matter how many you have, against the best, only achievement at the RWC counts on the world stage.

You forgot to mention 1966 as well Fact is your pedigree is off chum.

Coming from someone who constantly reminds us of how many 6N GS Wales have won, it's not Chum but Lidl's bargain brand. Englands selection has been good enough to beat Wales for the last two years and who mentioned 2003? Oh....................... it was Gwlad, what a sad person he must be.

by Geordie Wed 06 May 2015, 12:57 pm

With the emergence of Joseph, Manu's situation is not as desperate as it was. Joseph is a class act at 13.

We just need a 12 now to balance it out....

by Exiledinborders Wed 06 May 2015, 1:08 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:With the emergence of Joseph, Manu's situation is not as desperate as it was. Joseph is a class act at 13.

We just need a 12 now to balance it out....

True but it would be good to have a different type of player as an option.

As for twelve Slade looks the best option for me. Burrell and Twelvetrees have proved they are not up to it. The only other option would be Farell.

by Geordie Wed 06 May 2015, 1:19 pm

Oh I would love Manu to be available...hes a great weapon to have in the squad. But im just saying at least we have a good 13 to start.

12 is a huge debate on its own....

How about young Sam Hill the Exeter 12.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 May 2015, 1:29 pm

Sam Hill and Tom Stephenson both excellent prospects for whom this WC has probably come too early.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 May 2015, 1:30 pm

Don't think Hill would get in above Slade for me, would also have Twelvetrees, Burrell and Barritt ahead of him.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 May 2015, 1:31 pm

Based purely on performances against Leicester (as the only games I can usually see) Hill has been the best 12 to face us this season.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 May 2015, 1:33 pm

Don't think he's as good currently as any of the above though.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 May 2015, 1:45 pm

In the next season or 2 I like the look of Devoto, Slade, Hill even Tuilagi battling it out for that spot. May go from being a weakish area to a strong point.

by MichaelT Wed 06 May 2015, 2:05 pm

Its such a shame that in 4 years Manu Tuilagi only has 25 caps. England have played 50 games since he made his debut. Good thing he is only 24 this month, and can hopefully put this behind him.

by Geordie Wed 06 May 2015, 2:06 pm

They're all better than Twelvetrees......!!!

7.5, I just don't get how you constantly defend that guy. He's appallingly bad...and should not be anywhere near the England squad.

by Geordie Wed 06 May 2015, 2:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In the next season or 2 I like the look of Devoto, Slade, Hill even Tuilagi battling it out for that spot. May go from being a weakish area to a strong point.

BUt I completely agree with what your saying here.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 May 2015, 2:08 pm

Best fit for the role required at the moment. He's not appallingly bad at all, he's been a consistent 6 out of 10 for England and his game is more naturally suited to the game plan at the moment. I've never said any more than that or that he was amazing.

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