Clermont Auvergne v Saracens, 18 April

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ASM Clermont Auvergne v Saracens
Saturday 18 April 2015
KO 16:15
Stade Geoffroy-Guichard, Saint Etienne

Referee: George Clancy

Live on beIN / BT Sport

Form:

ASM Clermont Auvergne
4/4/15 - ASM Clermont 37 - 5 Saints
25/1/15 - ASM Clermont 18 - 6 Saracens
17/1/15 - Sharks 13 - 22 ASM Clermont

Saracens
5/4/15 - Racing Metro 11 - 12 Saracens
25/1/15 - ASM Clermont 18 - 6 Saracens
17/1/15 - Saracens 33 - 10 Munster

Teams:

ASM Clermont Auvergne
Nick Abendanon; Noa Nakaitaci, Jonathan Davies, Wesley Fofana, Naipolioni Nalaga, Brock James, Ludovic Radoslavjevic; Vincent Debaty, Benjamin Kayser, Davit Zirakashvili, Jamie Cudmore, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Julien Bonnaire, Julien Bardy, Damien Chouly (capt).

Replacements: John Ulugia, Raphael Chaume, Clement Ric, Julien Pierre, Alexandre Lapandry, Morgan Parra, Camille Lopez, Aurélien Rougerie.

Saracens
Alex Goode; Chris Ashton, Marcelo Bosch, Brad Barritt (capt), Chris Wyles; Charlie Hodgson, Richard Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Petrus Du Plessis, George Kruis, Jim Hamilton, Maro Itoje, Jacques Burger, Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: Schalk Brits, Rhys Gill, James Johnston, Kelly Brown, Jackson Wray, Neil de Kock, Owen Farrell, David Strettle

quinsforever wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Only one team turned up to play. Luckily for the final Sarries didn't make it. Boring limited rugby..

lets hope the other really boring side gets knocked out in the other semi then and we'll have a proper final

Unfortunately, I think Toulon are likely to win, Quins. Leinster haven't really played well at all this season.

Reckon it'll be a Top14 ERCC final.

The AP and Pro12 fans will have to make do with the Challenge Cup final.

Terrible game.

Pot Hale wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Only one team turned up to play. Luckily for the final Sarries didn't make it. Boring limited rugby..

lets hope the other really boring side gets knocked out in the other semi then and we'll have a proper final

Unfortunately, I think Toulon are likely to win, Quins.  Leinster haven't really played well at all this season.

Reckon it'll be a Top14 ERCC final.

The AP and Pro12 fans will have to make do with the Challenge Cup final.

Or, rugby fans can look forwards to an amazing final between the two undisputably best rugby sides in the NH, with a record 3rd consecutive win on the table for one, and a very first, long overdue win on the table for the other, with national rivalry to increase the spice.

i dont understand why so many fans find it boring that no club side from their country is in the final? it's a club competition not a national one.

i look forwards to picking tickets at below face value if leinster lose tomorrow.

I'm not pointing out their game plan when they get into the KO stages is boring (which it is, but Sarries fans won't care). I'm pointing out it doesn't work. They pull teams down to their level, kill any pace that might develop and turn these games into 50/50 contests. Thats not really consistent enough. They have to squeeze through three 50/50 games in a row to win the trophy. An extra gear will usually be needed at some point to get them out of trouble.

The trophies go to teams who can bring their killer instinct to bear to tip the odds in their favour. You do Ireland a disservice by grouping them with Leinster- Leinster will win nothing this season. Like Leinster, when it comes to the highest level Saracens are blunt and will always be relying on a few lucky breaks to go their way.

Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

It'll probably be a very dull Final between teams who know each other too well even if Toulon do win.

Clermont Auvergne are a long way from being one of the top two rugby sides in the NH. They have a history of choking in Europe and have only won their home League once in their history. Arguably the semi final tomorrow is between the current top two European sides, despite Leinster's poor form. Form is temporary class is permanent.

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.

The Great Aukster wrote:Clermont Auvergne are a long way from being one of the top two rugby sides in the NH. They have a history of choking in Europe and have only won their home League once in their history. Arguably the semi final tomorrow is between the current top two European sides, despite Leinster's poor form. Form is temporary class is permanent.

I think you are possibly getting confused. Unless Leinster turn around their season they are no longer a current top team. their status at the top will be confined to history (Like Toulouse, Munster, Wasps and Leicester before them). They can of course bounce back.


Toulon are the top team, Clermont are snapping at their heals.

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.  

Top 4, but they won't be in the top two...

Notch wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.  

Top 4, but they won't be in the top two...

Agree the odds are against. But top 4 ain't bad. And they have better than a puncher's chance against Toulon. I thhnk Toulon's pack can be had.

Seems strange that some posters are completely writing Leinster off. I guess same as some thought that Clermont would walk all over Sarries today.

I enjoyed today's game. It obviously won't go down as a classic but a decent enough game.

Hoping for a good one tomorrow too.

The Great Aukster wrote:Clermont Auvergne are a long way from being one of the top two rugby sides in the NH. They have a history of choking in Europe and have only won their home League once in their history. Arguably the semi final tomorrow is between the current top two European sides, despite Leinster's poor form. Form is temporary class is permanent.

toulon and clermont have 5 out of the 6 finalist berths in the last 3 years if toulon beat leinster.

that is fact.

those two sides are head an shoulders above anyone else in terms of consistency in european competition.

nostalgia for leinster as one of the top 2 sides in europe is just that. nostalgia.

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Clermont Auvergne are a long way from being one of the top two rugby sides in the NH. They have a history of choking in Europe and have only won their home League once in their history. Arguably the semi final tomorrow is between the current top two European sides, despite Leinster's poor form. Form is temporary class is permanent.

I think you are possibly getting confused. Unless Leinster turn around their season they are no longer a current top team. their status at the top will be confined to history (Like Toulouse, Munster, Wasps and Leicester before them). They can of course bounce back.


Toulon are the top team, Clermont are snapping at their heals.

Leinster have slipped no doubt but Clermont have never reached the heights to bounce back to, so where is the confusion?

Clermont have had a great team for a few years despite.

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.  

Top 4, but they won't be in the top two...

Agree the odds are against.  But top 4 ain't bad.  And they have better than a puncher's chance against Toulon.  I thhnk Toulon's pack can be had.

Unfortunately for them, they won't make the Top 4 in their own league regardless of what they do in France tomorrow

Notch wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.  

Top 4, but they won't be in the top two...

Agree the odds are against.  But top 4 ain't bad.  And they have better than a puncher's chance against Toulon.  I thhnk Toulon's pack can be had.

Unfortunately for them, they won't make the Top 4 in their own league regardless of what they do in France tomorrow

They have also had a very favourable draw so far. Easiest group, and a home quarter that they eked out. Record books will say top 4 in Europe, but realistically they're not even top 4 of the pro 12...

Not a great game at all. Pretty stagnant SF stuff. If Clermont play like that in the final they'll lose, without 'home' advantage I don't think they would have won today.

doctor_grey wrote:

Notch wrote:Their not a bad team by any means, but they're not European Cup winning quality.

But Leinster are one of the top 4 teams in Europe this season, are they not?  And still playing?
I'm not a supporter, but they did a lot better than my club did.  Which, unfortunately for me, means they are better this season.
And if they win two more matches, they are best.  

They most definitely are not top 4 in Europe.Barely top 10 imo and getting to a European semi in itself does not make you a top team.There's too much luck involved with the group you get.

Not a bad effort from Sarries, Burger and Vunipola in particular, but that one moment of class from James and Fofana sealed the deal.

Clancy was awful as always. Better off just tossing a coin really to determine decisions.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not a bad effort from Sarries, Burger and Vunipola in particular, but that one moment of class from James and Fofana sealed the deal.

Clancy was awful as always. Better off just tossing a coin really to determine decisions.

He had very poor assistants. He was stuck with Hodges as his assistant ref and the TMO (Simon McDowell) got Ashton's shoulder charge wrong.

Watched this as a neutral so could judge Clancey a bit more objectively and the question surely has to be asked how does he keep getting these big games.

I know refs get assessed regularly so I just can't understand why he hasn't been withdrawn off the top list.

From a Welsh view point was good to see JD involved a lot and also to see him communicating well with the players around him and not afraid to air his view etc. he seems to be settling in a lot better now.

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Clermont Auvergne are a long way from being one of the top two rugby sides in the NH. They have a history of choking in Europe and have only won their home League once in their history. Arguably the semi final tomorrow is between the current top two European sides, despite Leinster's poor form. Form is temporary class is permanent.

I think you are possibly getting confused. Unless Leinster turn around their season they are no longer a current top team. their status at the top will be confined to history (Like Toulouse, Munster, Wasps and Leicester before them). They can of course bounce back.


Toulon are the top team, Clermont are snapping at their heals.

Toulon are the top team, but Clermont have yet to win the competition.

And, while Toulouse, Munster and Leicester may miss out on the knocks-outs occasionally, they have all been far more consistent at making them than all other teams. Having 3 of the semi finalists for the previous two seasons in the same group doesn't work either. Leinster are off the pace this year, but yet have made a semi final.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Watched this as a neutral so could judge Clancey a bit more objectively and the question surely has to be asked how does he keep getting these big games.

I know refs get assessed regularly so I just can't understand why he hasn't been withdrawn off the top list.

From a Welsh view point was good to see JD involved a lot and also to see him communicating well with the players around him and not afraid to air his view etc.  he seems to be settling in a lot better now.

Perhaps Clancy is the best of a bad lot. Who do you think would be better than him who isn't reffing European/International games.

(I'd imagine the final will go to Nigel Owens).

After sleeping on it:


Saracens I had stated need to play bettr than they did in their last few fixtures. I reckon as it turned out their performance was similar to last week, just Clermont are far better than Leicester.

Clermont were bitterly stung by last year. In the face of Sarries ferocious defence, they tried to run the ball from everywhere but came unstuck. Despite dominating the stats, they were tackled to a standstill and Sarries were clinical with turnovers. This time they decided to play a Sarries style game, believing they had enough muscle to win. That was just correct.


I reckon McCall made a huge blunder picking Itoje at 6. he was a non-event at the breakdown, and starting with either Brown there (or Wray) would have allowed Sarries to get more men to the breakdown when they were in possesion. Instead BillyV was constantly penalised for holding on as his back row had failed to support. the young man should instead have been in the second row, where the he could still have played his normal game and the slowest man on the planet could have been left on the bench.

[quote="Sin é"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:Watched this as a neutral so could judge Clancey a bit more objectively and the question surely has to be asked how does he keep getting these big games.

I know refs get assessed regularly so I just can't understand why he hasn't been withdrawn off the top list.

From a Welsh view point was good to see JD involved a lot and also to see him communicating well with the players around him and not afraid to air his view etc.  he seems to be settling in a lot better now.

Perhaps Clancy is the best of a bad lot. Who do you think would be better than him who isn't reffing European/International games.

(I'd imagine the final will go to Nigel Owens).


Sin,

Not sure really maybe they should reduce number of elite refs just don't know but Clancey is bad more than he is good. Thought JP Doyle had a good game on Friday.

Challenge Cup is easier to ref than Champions I reckon.

I thought Clancy did OK. I disagreed with him at scrum time - but then that is all down to interpretation. In a game where both sides were looking to spoil ball and play minimal rugby, not sure any ref could have shone.

LT,

Why is it easier? They are all professional teams and this weekend you had a bit local ish derby game in Gloucester v Exeter and Doyle down the Dragons Blues quarter final.

Derby games themselves always have a bit more edge to them.

Quality of the players is lower, and both games look as though the teams were wanting to run the ball, rather than the kick and wrestle we saw in St Etienne.


and to call Gloucester/Exeter even vaguely a derby is stretching the term. (106 miles and 2hrs driving according to AA)

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]

Sin é wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Watched this as a neutral so could judge Clancey a bit more objectively and the question surely has to be asked how does he keep getting these big games.

I know refs get assessed regularly so I just can't understand why he hasn't been withdrawn off the top list.

From a Welsh view point was good to see JD involved a lot and also to see him communicating well with the players around him and not afraid to air his view etc.  he seems to be settling in a lot better now.

Perhaps Clancy is the best of a bad lot. Who do you think would be better than him who isn't reffing European/International games.

(I'd imagine the final will go to Nigel Owens).


Sin,

Not sure really maybe they should reduce number of elite refs just don't know but Clancey is bad more than he is good.  Thought JP Doyle had a good game on Friday.

They need a certain number of refs (12 for the world cup as well as assistants). This year I think they have been trying to develop some refs further (i.e., Nigel Owens seemed to be assistant ref a lot in this year's 6Ns.

Some insight into a day in the life of a ref:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTDiNn-nUw

Interesting that the refs wear GPSs.

Is the quality of player lower though? I know some teams in the Aviva or T14 don't take it as serious as others but their squads are the same squads they use in the leagues and in Exeters case they are flying high in that league at mo.

Sarries are a better team than Exeter, Clermont better than Gloucester.


It is however the mindset. If teams are looking to run the ball, as fans we give the ref more tolerance and we "allow" him to let things go. When teams are intent on playing negative rugby we tend to also moan about the ref - who has far more decisions to make and many more occasions when there are offences by both sides.

Notch you say the gameplan didn't work for Saracens, true but it did for Toulon.

Ireland are exactly like Leinster and Saracens. Benchmark are NZ not Ireland.


Londontiger

Disagree I thought Saracens tactical kicking was much better than vs Leicester. It was very poor vs Leicester in the first half.

Goode outplayed Abendanon.


the usage of Billy vs the likes of Clermont and Toulon is far too predictable.

Every man and his dog knows that Billy is going to get the ball - instead of letting him getting tackled to a standstill, Saracens should have used him more as a decoy, get him to pass the ball more. Would have kept the opposition honest and guessing.

It's very difficult to play an attacking game when the opposition defence is so good because they can suffocate you.

It's why a side like Quins struggles so badly against Saracens.

Unfortunately the two semi finals turned into slugfests because the risks for attacking outweigh the benefits.


Oh and looking at how stodgy Toulon were (I only watched the highlights), Clermont will fear nothing.

I hope Clermont beat Toulon - the Clermont fans were great.


Saracens do lack balance in the team and must find some cutting edge if they are going to ever lift the European crown but I do think that Saracens are better than people give them credit for.

Saracens matched Clermont physically but unfortunately just didn't take their opportunities and couldn't find the breakthrough they needed.

Needed Billy and Charlie in particular to make more of an impact.

Billy was well shackled and Charlie didn't take the points on offer (albeit the kicks were tough but to win you must) plus he didn't create enough opportunities.

Some perspective though this was a 4 point loss against a star studded Clermont side who were being voraciously supported by 40,998 french men and women.

It was a close match and it was winnable.

Perhaps Itoje didn't work as hard as he could at the breakdown but I loved his fend on Clermont's 7 putting him on his backside - just that one moment showed that this youngster could be something special.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/european-champions-cup-analysis-maro-itoje-saracens-44710

beshocked wrote:
Perhaps Itoje didn't work as hard as he could at the breakdown but I loved his fend on Clermont's 7 putting him on his backside - just that one moment showed that this youngster could be something special.

Should have been penalised and possibly carded for leading with his elbow and forearm though. Just as Manu should be when he does it.

Playing into the wind, Sarries barely kicked against tigers in the first half, which was a perfectly correct decision. I still stand by my assertion that Sarries needed to improve to beat Clermont and they were unable to. I also still be lieve that if Itoje had been in the second row, and Brown or Wray in back row they woudl have been more balanced, and stood a better chance of winning.

ASM were clever thjough and refused to throw the ball around, which could have played straight into Sarries hands.

Londontiger you are probably right about the balance being wrong.

Saracens kicked vs Tigers - just badly.

It's very difficult to play the French clubs.

Not sure where Saracens go from here - they've got the physicality to match the big french clubs but need to find some creative flair to go to the next level in my opinion.

Clutching at straws but maybe someone like Nick Tompkins in the centres could give us that in the next year or so.

Balance is everything in rugby. At the moment Saracens are well organised but need something extra.

So many defensive orientated players but need some more power,pace and creativity IMO to compliment the defensive power.

Unlocking a strong defence is still very difficult.