European Tour 2015 - DP World Tour Championship

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Post by sirbenson on Wed 24 Jun 2015, 9:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

I thought with no place to discuss European Tour events, and with important upcoming event. I felt it would be a good idea to set up a thread to I am going to try and keep this updated every week with selected tee times.


Last edited by sirbenson on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 4:18 pm; edited 35 times in total

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Post by McLaren on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 4:35 pm

Does he mean in marketing terms or in OWGR subsidy terms? If wentworth looses its subsidy then the event as we know it is no more. Why would you kill of such a big event?

Who even decides what the flagship event on a tour is when it comes to handing out OWGR points?
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Post by robopz on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 5:52 pm

pedro wrote:Why does Pelley feel the urge to say that? Is he peed off that the BMW Masters in China is off? Yes he may put pressure on the Chinese owners of Wentworth but isn't he p'ing off BMW and kissing up to the Dubai sponsors?

If he has deemed Dubai the flagship event there's no way back, or?

And what's with his € vs $ and ET PGATour comparisons? He can never compete on money and purses anyway, so a bit academic comparison.
Gotta tell ya pedro... Pelley obviously doesn't lack confidence in his abilities which I see as "mostly" a GOOD thing... I say mostly because some "truths" are just better left unsaid... like his comments about the BMW PGA which I can't see how can be taken as anything other than a slam by the tournament and/or sponsor. Doesn't matter that he was probably 100% correct on those comments... but how in the heck is "downgrading" his own flagship event sensible? What was he thinking with that, especially since he volunteered it... he wasn't even asked. And then when Wentworth came up again, he doubled down and made it worse... sheesh.

If you ask me... Pelley's been doing a great job so far... but the whole Flagship conversation is his first real misstep I've seen... hope it doesn't come back to bite him (and the ET) in the butt.

But on a larger point... If you read his full comments at the link below... I think he's realizing that in any short to mid term, bringing purses up on the ET to PGAT levels is NOT in the cards. What he's saying is they need to get roughly a dozen events up to or near PGA purse standards for the next generation of players to be willing to stay home instead of taking PGAT membership. That way some young gun 5-6 years from now who's qualified for the 8 co-sanctions can look at those plus 12 quality purses at home... and maybe a few more invites in the U.S... and have no need to take PGAT membership. I think he's correct... it's just how in the heck do you pull that off? As of now there's only 3 ET events up to or exceeding the PGA Tour's roughly $6.6 million average event purse (excluding Majors/WGC's/Alt events)... the only other one close is the BMW PGA about $1 million behind that average.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=114994

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Post by McLaren on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 11:32 am

Danny willet doing a respectable job so far of hanging onto r-mac, and both will hopefully be in place to challenge come the weekend.
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Post by LadyPutt on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 1:30 pm

With his sunny smile and cheerful disposition (which so many of his fellow professionals seem to lack these days) I would dearly love to see Andy Sullivan win this thing (even though I didn't pick him in the Fantasy League). He is just a refreshing breath of fresh air! Very Happy
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Post by GPB on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:08 pm

Hypothetical for all the people who think Rory McIlroy should have been PGATour Rookie of the Year in 2010 (instead of Rickie Fowler),

If Patrick Reed wins the tournament this week, should he be considered for the European Tour Rookie of the Year?

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Post by McLaren on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:18 pm

Probably. Who else is in the running?
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Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:39 pm

A bit apples and oranges don't you think, GPB?

McIlroy didn't exactly have WGC victory and Ryder Cup credentials on his CV.

Assume Fitzpatrick must be eligible, doncha think? He'd be a good choice. Perhaps he'll win this week, too. Fingers Crossed

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Post by pedro on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:41 pm

See here. Tough one. (Reed not there btw)

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=278594.html#byvsBJTLHDWmeIBk.97

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Post by GPB on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:05 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:A bit apples and oranges don't you think, GPB?

McIlroy didn't exactly have WGC victory and Ryder Cup credentials on his CV.

Assume Fitzpatrick must be eligible, doncha think? He'd be a good choice. Perhaps he'll win this week, too. Fingers Crossed  

Rory may not have had a WGC win and Ryder Cup experience, but he was a Top 10 player when he joined the PGATour, exempt for all the majors and WGCs when he joined the PGATour and didn't have to worry about the reshuffle.

http://dps.endavadigital.net/owgr/doc/content/archive/2010/owgr01f2010.pdf

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Post by GPB on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:11 pm

pedro wrote:See here. Tough one. (Reed not there btw)

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=278594.html#byvsBJTLHDWmeIBk.97

Reed should NOT be there. RoY should disqualify players that are already World Class Players. Rory was a top 10 player when he joined the PGATour and so is Reed.

I don't like the PGATour rule for disqualifying players for RoY, which is played more than 7 events in any one season.

This should be Kelly Kraft's rookie season on the PGATour, but since he played 7 events a few years ago, he has been deemed ineligible for RoY.

Under the old rules, Lahiri would have been eligible for RoY on the 2015-16 PGATour as this is his first year on the PGAT.

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Post by EmmDee57 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:53 pm

What was the reason for Patrick Reed playing the Euro Tour this year? Did he play many events over here before he got his PGA card?

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Post by McLaren on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:55 pm

Possibly to cover himself in the event that one of his past indiscretions got him booted off the PGAT?
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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 11:30 am

This seems pretty artificial:
French Open to count as "two events" played on next year's European Tour plus, regardless of strength of field (remember, it conflicts on the schedule with WGC: Bridgestone), the Ryder Cup "World" points earned will be adjusted upwards - as if it were a flagship event. Bigger purse also.

The announcement also says "World" points earned by European Tour members at Bridgestone won't count towards Ryder Cup qualification. How can they do that?

I'm all for the European competing with the PGA Tour by having better events, but this seems a couple of bridges to far. No point in waging war with Finchem, who is not motivated to give two hoots about the Ryder Cup.

Is Pelley getting a little ahead of himself here?


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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 12:31 pm

Lousy rounds from Rose (78) and Westwood (74) today and they'll probably be playing together on Sunday.
Imagine Lee would have taken that when he started Round 3 - little did either of them know.

Lee will be closer to 60th in the owgr on Monday than Top 50.

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Post by pedro on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:

Is Pelley getting a little ahead of himself here?

Yes.

The ET even goes so far as calling it "enhancements". Newspeak at its worst.

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Post by McLaren on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 1:02 pm

Do we have any idea where the top Europeans (mcilroy, stenson, rose etc) are likely to play in the French/WGC week?
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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 1:26 pm

Mac,
I don't think any of them usually play "France" so can't see why that would change.

The insertion of the Bridgestone doesn't really give players much chance of a break between the US Open and the Open Championship - I'd say Rory will certainly play Bridgestone, Stenson and Rose probably will, though could see Rose taking that week off completely.

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Post by GPB on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 3:37 pm

Rose used to play Tiger's tournament when it occupied that spot in the calendar, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him play B-Stone.

I remember a Stenson interview from this summer where he was likely to not play either tournament.

Since Rory wasn't able to defend his 2014 B-Stone win, he might feel some obligation to play Akron in 2016. Which probably won't make Pelley and company very happy.

Is there any indication that the recent current events in Paris have anything to do with this decision. Can't help but think that there is, and if so, a very knee jerk reaction.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 3:48 pm

GPB,
Thing about Rose is that he's got so many tournaments he's won in a short period of time:
Memorial
week off
US Open
Quicken
week off/France/Bridgestone
Scotland
Open

Wouldn't think the Paris atrocities figure in Pelley's announcement at all. Might keep Americans away from Europe though.

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Post by GPB on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 3:54 pm

Pretty sure Quicken won't be on Rose's schedule if plays B-Stone and Scotland (or France and Scotland)

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Post by GPB on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 4:42 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Lousy rounds from Rose (78) and Westwood (74) today and they'll probably be playing together on Sunday.
Imagine Lee would have taken that when he started Round 3 - little did either of them know.

Lee will be closer to 60th in the owgr on Monday than Top 50.

Looks like Sullivan, King Charl and Chris Wood will definitely pass Westwood. And a outside shot that GMac and Russell Henley passes him. And KT Kim on the Japan Tour. (he is in position to win his fifth tournament since June)

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Post by robopz on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 5:27 pm

McLaren wrote:Do we have any idea where the top Europeans (mcilroy, stenson, rose etc) are likely to play in the French/WGC week?
Seems to me the only reason Pelley would "double" the French Open would have been he was getting a sense many of the top dual tour guys were still planning on playing the WGC instead of the French. And with a limited field WGC with guaranteed OWGR and FE points + money, not to mention a $9.5 mil purse vs and €3.5 mil purse and a cut and no guarantees... who could blame them?

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 5:35 pm

Pelley should focus on what he has and enhancing that, for players, sponsors, fans and not necessarily in that order. Not much he's ever going to be able to do about what he doesn't have unless he can improve his own product. This is just plain stupid.

Still think the WGC move was totally bogus, and just another sign that Finchem will do whatever he has to to get what he wants. Great Commissioner, but eff him.

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Post by robopz on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 8:46 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Pelley should focus on what he has and enhancing that, for players, sponsors, fans and not necessarily in that order. Not much he's ever going to be able to do about what he doesn't have unless he can improve his own product. This is just plain stupid.

Still think the WGC move was totally bogus, and just another sign that Finchem will do whatever he has to to get what he wants. Great Commissioner, but eff him.
Obviously I'm not privy to all the elements involved in the PGAT setting the schedule (especially WGC Bridgestone) how they did. But one thing is clear... a major and more than a 1/2 dozen PGAT events were shuffled around from their traditional dates to accommodate the Olympics.   So my question becomes... if the French Open was so important... they why not the ET make an accommodation and let the French switch dates with the BMW International?   Or as another option.. there's an OPEN DATE the week after the OPEN.  The BMW INT could have moved there and the French gone a week earlier and that way no ET event plays opposite the WGC.  

Bottom line... The ET and all of world golf supported Golf in the Olympics and knew there were accommodations in everybody's schedules required to make it happen. And there were very viable options available to solve this French Open issue without blaming Finchem or the new ET management jumping through self-made hoops the way they have over all this.  And I bet now they wish they had of, instead of having to come up with this knucklehead double counting event idea...

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Post by GPB on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 9:17 pm

robopz wrote:And there were very viable options available to solve this French Open issue without blaming Finchem or the new ET management jumping through self-made hoops the way they have over all this. And I bet now they wish they had of, instead of having to come up with this knucklehead double counting event idea...

C'Mon Robo, it is much easier to blame the big bully that is Finchem and the PGATour.

Its the PGATour fault that oversee the securing of sponsors of a 9 Million dollar tournament that is more than 2.5x that of the French Open.

Its the PGATour fault that they put the schedule for the new year well before their season starts while the EuroT does their schedule at the 11th hour. The PGAtour should twiddle their thumbs while the EuroT scrambles to get sponsorships for 2 Million dollar tournaments.

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Post by pedro on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 11:56 am

Golf will be in the Olympics in 2020, and who knows ahead, so we'll potentially have the same discussion every fourth year.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:23 pm

robo, GPB,
I'm just surprised Finchem didn't put the Bridgestone up against The Open; that would show those stuffy, penny-pinching Europeans.

It's not the money, it's the Tour Membership handcuffs. Most right-minded people would prefer a week in Paris to a week in Akron, even if the pay was less than half.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm

PS: Well done Rory, Simply the Best!

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Post by Be_the_ball on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:51 pm

Well done Rory indeed Kwini, also very impressed with Sullivans game. He played some fantastic golf today, Rory just has that extra gear of a truely world class player. Great finish to the tourney & year. Can Gmac follow him home later? would be great!

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Post by Shotrock on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:57 pm

Kwin - Of course most people would prefer a week in Paris to a week in Akron. But that, IMO, is precisely the fundamental problem with the ET and lots of the crusty old guard: "Harumph, Harumph ... these golfers should be delighted to come to our events for half the money. After all we're chock full of history and culture." Cue eye rolls.

Hey, ET ... you must first attract professional golfers. Professionals work for money. You need sponsors, gate and a good course infrastructure.

Given that stodgy (elitist even) thinking that "our culture and venues should do the job" to attract the golfer it's no wonder Europe's best, for the most part, practice their trade in the US.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 12:59 pm

Sr,
I don't think you've read my posts on this; I agree with you, except for the fact that the "handcuffs" are more important than the filthy lucre.

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Post by Shotrock on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

But ... what you call "handcuffs" I would define as "a reasonable price of membership". Now, how did I arrive at "reasonable"?

It's what the market can obviously bear. If the US tour gets greedy in that regard or stingy in purses, the mercenary golfers will go elsewhere.

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Post by lorus59 on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 1:09 pm

How much richer is Rory after this weekend?

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Post by McLaren on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:05 pm

Nearly didn't happen for Rory after he put his tee shot on 17 into the water, but he then salvaged a bogey after seeing Andy miss a putt on a very similar line from around 35-30 feet.


Kwini

Where would you have put the WGC bridestone in the 2016 schedule if you were in charge?

And if you were head of the ET would you have been willing to accommodate a WGC date change and move your own events around?
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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 2:17 pm

Mac,
I would have placed the Bridgestone either the week before the US Open or the week following, just as it always used to be with the PGA. Though that would have risked p1ssing off FedEx and/or Tiger Woods and we can't be having that - much better to pee off the French.

But the best alternative would have been to celebrate the French Open centenary by turning that into a WGC - perhaps they could have got Michelin to stand in for Bridgestone!

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Post by GPB on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 4:55 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
I would have placed the Bridgestone either the week before the US Open or the week following, just as it always used to be with the PGA. Though that would have risked p1ssing off FedEx and/or Tiger Woods and we can't be having that - much better to pee off the French.

But the best alternative would have been to celebrate the French Open centenary by turning that into a WGC - perhaps they could have got Michelin to stand in for Bridgestone!

Rolling Eyes

I think Quicken Loans would have been thrilled to have the B-Stone date instead of in between US Open and B-Stone.

Yes, lets celebrate the 100th French Open and make it a WGC and possibly have no Frenchmen qualify. That makes a whole lot of sense.

Frankly Kwini, I think you would have found fault whatever week the B-Stone landed.

Lets face it, the Olympics turned next summers schedule into a clusterf*** and some tournaments were going to get screwed. I can't believe you honestly think the PGATour set out to screw the French Open.

The PGATour puts their schedule together in August. The EuroTour Management should be cognizant of that and been PROACTIVE to asked the PGATour to protect that date. Exactly when did the FRENCH Open become one of the sacred Euro Tournaments? When is the last time either Rose, Stenson, and Rory played it?

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 5:06 pm

Can't remember the last time a Chinese golfer qualified for a WGC under Bridgestone qualifying rules . . . . .
Would think Vic Dubuisson has already qualified for next year's Bridgestone - and he'll be en Paris!

Come on, Finchem knew exactly what he was doing and just said f--- the French. And O'Grady didn't have the balls to put his foot down.

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Post by GPB on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:07 pm

Yep. Doobie looked like a World Beater back in August when the schedule was put together.

He had Fallen from 17th to 50th in the OWGR from Jan 1 to B-Stone tournament. That is not trending to be into many WGCs.

Glad to see that you are blaming Finchem/PGATour for O'Grady's lack of gonads.

Finchem purposely wanted to screw the French Open. Doesn't that tinfoil hat get cold in Vermont this time of year.

Still haven't figure out when the French Open became sacrosanct!

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Post by JAS on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:10 pm

Very enjoyable day at Jumeirah. That was awesome golf fair play to both, Sullivan pushed well definite a European RC asset in the making. Classy un-panicked stuff from McIlroy, held it together when Sullivan was burning up the front 9. Several highlights from the day, I was about 15 feet away from top 5 when the gasket blew over the fluffed chip. Mcilroys recovery putt on 17, his out the fairway bunker on 8. His first practice shot on the range hit the 100 yard pin. Never seen a range session like it the way he peppered all the pins as be moved up through the bag. After the end Sullivan came back to the tented village to meet & greet those who had supported him. Seems like a good guy.

Btw did TVreport the conversation Sullivan and McIlroy had on 8th green?

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Post by GPB on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 6:50 pm

Looks like George Coetzee is coming back next week after breaking his ankle surfing in the South Pacific this past summer.

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Post by McLaren on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm

I missed this last week, but it seems Willett was quite openly critical of the European Tours decision to let McIlroy skip a finals event despite not having played his quota of European tour events. Willett accepted that Rory is a big part of the European tours draw and therefore might warrant special treatment but that this special treatment did provide him an advantage. Rory did not face the same travel issues of those playing all 4 events. Willett also asked the question if the same treatment would have been afforded to the rest of the players on tour. I would suggest it wouldn't have been and that is an issue of sporting fairness.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/danny-willett-rory-mcilroy-given-advantage-over-other-european-tour-players
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Post by LadyPutt on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 2:04 pm

JAS wrote:Btw did TVreport the conversation Sullivan and McIlroy had on 8th green?
Don't think so. Now I'm intrigued. What transpired?
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Post by pedro on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 2:33 pm

McLaren wrote:I missed this last week, but it seems Willett was quite openly critical of the European Tours decision to let McIlroy skip a finals event despite not having played his quota of European tour events.  Willett accepted that Rory is a big part of the European tours draw and therefore might warrant special treatment but that this special treatment did provide him an advantage.  Rory did not face the same travel issues of those playing all 4 events.  Willett also asked the question if the same treatment would have been afforded to the rest of the players on tour.  I would suggest it wouldn't have been and that is an issue of sporting fairness.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/danny-willett-rory-mcilroy-given-advantage-over-other-european-tour-players
I think Willett is spot on. It's a catch 22 for the ET and just proves how desperate and f-ked the ET is if they don't get their act together. Rory-gate, the continuous Final series soap, and now the French Open / B-stone farce.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 3:33 pm

Didn't McIlroy say he was fully fit around the time of the HSBC WGC? Then if so he should have played the BMW Masters. Even though it might have been 4 tournaments in a row.

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Post by GPB on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 5:07 pm

I remember about 6 yeas ago, that one prominent golfer made a world wide apology, saying among other things that he thought he was entitled and he thought he got to play under "different rules"

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Post by pedro on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 7:17 pm

GPB wrote:I remember about 6 yeas ago, that one prominent golfer made a world wide apology, saying among other things that he thought he was entitled and he thought he got to play under "different rules"
I guess you talk about Tiger. Did he say that about golf or about his women?

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Post by Bob_the_Job on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 7:41 pm


McLaren wrote:I missed this last week, but it seems Willett was quite openly critical of the European Tours decision to let McIlroy skip a finals event despite not having played his quota of European tour events.  Willett accepted that Rory is a big part of the European tours draw and therefore might warrant special treatment but that this special treatment did provide him an advantage.  Rory did not face the same travel issues of those playing all 4 events.  Willett also asked the question if the same treatment would have been afforded to the rest of the players on tour.  I would suggest it wouldn't have been and that is an issue of sporting fairness.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/danny-willett-rory-mcilroy-given-advantage-over-other-european-tour-players

Firstly well done Rory.

Secondly, I don't see criticism - more observation and a statement of facts and indeed support for the tour decision.  How odd that Mac would twist the facts.

Although, in one sense I can see where Willett is coming from, and in effect allowing Rory some leeway meant he could miss out on a closing event and thus arrive fresher for the DP.

However, what nobody, especially Willett seems to be acknowledging is that due to that leeway, Rory still kicked their collective @rses in the R2D whilst competing fewer events. If Rory hadn't missed out on some Willett might well have gone to the DP with nothing to play for.  For reference, Rory played 12 events to Danny's 23. And as for being fresh? Well Andy Sullivan soundly beat Willett too and he competed in 28 events on the tour, somewhat invalidating that argument.
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Post by GPB on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 8:06 pm

pedro wrote:
GPB wrote:I remember about 6 yeas ago, that one prominent golfer made a world wide apology, saying among other things that he thought he was entitled and he thought he got to play under "different rules"
I guess you talk about Tiger. Did he say that about golf or about his women?

At the time, I interpreted as he meant everything.

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Post by hend085 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 1:57 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:
McLaren wrote:I missed this last week, but it seems Willett was quite openly critical of the European Tours decision to let McIlroy skip a finals event despite not having played his quota of European tour events.  Willett accepted that Rory is a big part of the European tours draw and therefore might warrant special treatment but that this special treatment did provide him an advantage.  Rory did not face the same travel issues of those playing all 4 events.  Willett also asked the question if the same treatment would have been afforded to the rest of the players on tour.  I would suggest it wouldn't have been and that is an issue of sporting fairness.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/danny-willett-rory-mcilroy-given-advantage-over-other-european-tour-players

Firstly well done Rory.

Secondly, I don't see criticism - more observation and a statement of facts and indeed support for the tour decision.  How odd that Mac would twist the facts.

Although, in one sense I can see where Willett is coming from, and in effect allowing Rory some leeway meant he could miss out on a closing event and thus arrive fresher for the DP.

However, what nobody, especially Willett seems to be acknowledging is that due to that leeway, Rory still kicked their collective @rses in the R2D whilst competing fewer events. If Rory hadn't missed out on some Willett might well have gone to the DP with nothing to play for.  For reference, Rory played 12 events to Danny's 23. And as for being fresh? Well Andy Sullivan soundly beat Willett too and he competed in 28 events on the tour, somewhat invalidating that argument.


If Willett thought Rory was at an advantage by only playing 3/4 then why did Danny choose to play 4/4?

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Post by hend085 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:10 pm

i thought it was strange that he didnt play the dunhill links actually. would have been an obvious one for him around courses hes done well on before.

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