PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

by Chunky Norwich Fri 30 Oct 2015, 1:32 pm

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.

WalesOnline

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 1:55 pm

I particularly like '“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.'

People will moan no matter as it's easier than accepting responsibility as a coach or the fact your team weren't good enough.

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:02 pm

You should be happy about the review, Chunky.

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I particularly like '“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.'

People will moan no matter as it's easier than accepting responsibility as a coach or the fact your team weren't good enough.

Agreed about MOC, but he has a point in the use of TMO's. Not just in this league, but in any league.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:06 pm

I'm not sure. I've never seen a ref set out to be biased, but I've seen bad performances. With the set up of the Pro 12 no matter who the refs are employed by there will be some who point to their nationality for proof of bias.

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure. I've never seen a ref set out to be biased, but I've seen bad performances. With the set up of the Pro 12 no matter who the refs are employed by there will be some who point to their nationality for proof of bias.

There will always be the moaners, but it will help if we can have 'neutral' refs at all games, even if only to act as a pacifier to those moaners. If it's doable, we should do it, but I think it require a lot of investment to attract and develop refs, outside of Welsh and Irish.

I would be for an independent recruiting and training agency developing and providing refs to Pro12, with all Unions/Clubs funding that agency via Pro12.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:16 pm

And it's definitely no bad thing to put effort in developing refs. Without them we'd gte no games.

by marty2086 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure. I've never seen a ref set out to be biased, but I've seen bad performances. With the set up of the Pro 12 no matter who the refs are employed by there will be some who point to their nationality for proof of bias.

There will always be the moaners, but it will help if we can have 'neutral' refs at all games, even if only to act as a pacifier to those moaners. If it's doable, we should do it, but I think it require a lot of investment to attract and develop refs, outside of Welsh and Irish.

I would be for an independent recruiting and training agency developing and providing refs to Pro12, with all Unions/Clubs funding that agency via Pro12.

Would be the best approach to it maybe also spending a few quid to get refs from other countries to fill the void in the short term

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

I think it needs to be done. We must have professional refs officiating professional sport, and an outside agency doing all the recruiting and training makes sense.
Attracting more refs from Scotland and Italy would be a bonus, but there's no reason why we shouldn't also look to England, France or further abroad.

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure. I've never seen a ref set out to be biased, but I've seen bad performances. With the set up of the Pro 12 no matter who the refs are employed by there will be some who point to their nationality for proof of bias.

There will always be the moaners, but it will help if we can have 'neutral' refs at all games, even if only to act as a pacifier to those moaners. If it's doable, we should do it, but I think it require a lot of investment to attract and develop refs, outside of Welsh and Irish.

I would be for an independent recruiting and training agency developing and providing refs to Pro12, with all Unions/Clubs funding that agency via Pro12.

Would be the best approach to it maybe also spending a few quid to get refs from other countries to fill the void in the short term

You beat me to it, marty. Just posted the same thoughts on recruiting outside of the nations involved.

Having all refs train together might help with more consistent reffing as well.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:30 pm

You'd have to be prepared for a drop in quality though as you'd suspect the English and french wouldn't be prepared to release their refs for more than a game or 2 every few months.

by marty2086 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to be prepared for a drop in quality though as you'd suspect the English and french wouldn't be prepared to release their refs for more than a game or 2 every few months.

It doesn't need to be a short term thing, how many would move for more money?

Im sure there are some decent refs in places outside the Pro12/6 Nations areas too in places like Romania and Georgia, maybe they need to work to attract and develop them and have them attached to the SRU or FIR

the same with ex players from across the league, I'm sure most players now have contingency plans but I'm sure a few don't and some might see it as a way to stay involved

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:36 pm

I think we would need refs dedicated to Pro12, and my ideal would be an outside agency providing them.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:44 pm

True marty. The question being could or would the pro 12 be able or willing to pay more than the French and English?

by Nematode Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:48 pm

Maybe the Pro12 could try and come to some arrangement with the Aviva to share referees?

I personally don't think it's much of a problem though. What I think is needed though is more referees from Scotland and Italy.

Btw, anyone know of any Argentinian referees?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:51 pm

That would be good Nematode for everyone involved. They've done it a couple of times but ref swaps would benefit the refs themselves and players would get used to different styles.

by marty2086 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:54 pm

Not all the AP refs are full time and some of the part timers are decent refs, then you have the ARs who could be recruited to be full time refs. If you think of any from the North of England being pinched by the SRU or from the West by the WRU or even IRFU.

It means these guys wouldn't have to relocate

by marty2086 Fri 30 Oct 2015, 2:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That would be good Nematode for everyone involved. They've done it a couple of times but ref swaps would benefit the refs themselves and players would get used to different styles.

The Top 14 did this a few years back for exactly those reasons going into the HC

by mikey_dragon Fri 30 Oct 2015, 3:44 pm

Griff are you reading this?

by geoff999rugby Fri 30 Oct 2015, 5:37 pm

Its needs to be remember why we got to this point.

Prior to the Italians joining there was a time when all games had referees from the neutral country.
However a point was reached where Scotland were unable to meet the requirement and this was further strained when
Italy had a low number of suitably qualified referees.

Therefore the 2 countries with the most teams also supply the most referees.
Until this changes games between Welsh and Irish sides will continue to require a referee from the same country as one of the teams.

by mikey_dragon Fri 30 Oct 2015, 5:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Its needs to be remember why we got to this point.

Prior to the Italians joining there was a time when all games had referees from the neutral country.
However a point was reached where Scotland were unable to meet the requirement and this was further strained when
Italy had a low number of suitably qualified referees.

Therefore the 2 countries with the most teams also supply the most referees.
Until this changes games between Welsh and Irish sides will continue to require a referee from the same country as one of the teams.

You can say that again. Peter Allan picard

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 6:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Griff are you reading this?

Yes I am reading this, but I still stand by my point that grown men (or women) shouldn't whinge and whine about the ref in every single goddam game. And that's for club and international. And applies to people from every country. A review of officiating doesn't change my opinion on that. Why would it?

Looking forward to the whinge fest that will ensue during and after the Scarlets v Dragons game. picard

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 6:13 pm

Just to add: your ref whinging might have some more credence and plausibility if it was done occasionally. You know, like after an horrendous error, for example. The fact that it is in EVERY game, after nearly EVERY decision and aimed at EVERY ref in ALL competitions means that other posters just brush it off as yet another moan. The posters who cried wolf, if you will.

by mikey_dragon Fri 30 Oct 2015, 6:32 pm

My ref whinging? Hardly. It can't be in every game either. I don't watch every game, so don't really comment on every game. Nice try though. As I expected, continue with your bury your head in the sand approach. The rest of us hope this will be the start of improving the Pro12 officiating Smile

.

by Guest Fri 30 Oct 2015, 6:41 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:My ref whinging? Hardly. It can't be in every game either. I don't watch every game, so don't really comment on every game. Nice try though. As I expected, continue with your bury your head in the sand approach. The rest of us hope this will be the starting of improving the Pro12 officiating .

I didn't mean you specifically. I'm talking about the collective men (or women) ref whingers on these boards. I'm not against criticising bad decisions - but the volume of ref whingeing is disproportionate on here. It's just whingeing for whingeing's sake half the time, and usually (but not always) because your (as in the people who are whingeing) team has lost. The complaining on here would suggest that every single referee in every single game in every single competition, both club and international, is terrible and had a terrible game, such is the level of constant moaning. And we know that is not true. As Scarletspiderman alluded to on a different thread, when the same fans watch the game back again without the red mist goggles on they can often see that the referee wasn't as bad as first thought. But most of the bad posters on here will just move onto the next game, and the next ref victim, and the next sh*t storm of abuse.

Stay classy Mikey.

by mikey_dragon Fri 30 Oct 2015, 6:50 pm

Griff wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:My ref whinging? Hardly. It can't be in every game either. I don't watch every game, so don't really comment on every game. Nice try though. As I expected, continue with your bury your head in the sand approach. The rest of us hope this will be the starting of improving the Pro12 officiating .

I didn't mean you specifically. I'm talking about the collective men (or women) ref whingers on these boards. I'm not against criticising bad decisions - but the volume of ref whingeing is disproportionate on here. It's just whingeing for whingeing's sake half the time, and usually (but not always) because your (as in the people who are whingeing) team has lost. The complaining on here would suggest that every single referee in every single game in every single competition, both club and international, is terrible and had a terrible game, such is the level of constant moaning. And we know that is not true. As Scarletspiderman alluded to on a different thread, when the same fans watch the game back again without the red mist goggles on they can often see that the referee wasn't as bad as first thought. But most of the bad posters on here will just move onto the next game, and the next ref victim, and the next sh*t storm of abuse.

Stay classy Mikey.

Oh well that's alright then. As I said the other day though, as paying spectators they have that right. Anyway, no complaints about tonight's ref so far...

by Stone Motif Fri 30 Oct 2015, 8:45 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Griff wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:My ref whinging? Hardly. It can't be in every game either. I don't watch every game, so don't really comment on every game. Nice try though. As I expected, continue with your bury your head in the sand approach. The rest of us hope this will be the starting of improving the Pro12 officiating .

I didn't mean you specifically. I'm talking about the collective men (or women) ref whingers on these boards. I'm not against criticising bad decisions - but the volume of ref whingeing is disproportionate on here. It's just whingeing for whingeing's sake half the time, and usually (but not always) because your (as in the people who are whingeing) team has lost. The complaining on here would suggest that every single referee in every single game in every single competition, both club and international, is terrible and had a terrible game, such is the level of constant moaning. And we know that is not true. As Scarletspiderman alluded to on a different thread, when the same fans watch the game back again without the red mist goggles on they can often see that the referee wasn't as bad as first thought. But most of the bad posters on here will just move onto the next game, and the next ref victim, and the next sh*t storm of abuse.

Stay classy Mikey.

Oh well that's alright then. As I said the other day though, as paying spectators they have that right. Anyway, no complaints about tonight's ref so far...

Fair play Mikey you were right, having 'the best players back in Wales' transformed us tonight. We were like a different team.Thw third place play off has has a tough act to follow.

by mikey_dragon Fri 30 Oct 2015, 8:50 pm

If you think it's going to change overnight then you're a LOT stupider than I first thought. You're also very sad coming on just to post that reply out of nowhere, but that's quite typical of angry men in life I find.

by Stone Motif Sat 31 Oct 2015, 3:07 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:If you think it's going to change overnight then you're a LOT stupider than I first thought. You're also very sad coming on just to post that reply out of nowhere, but that's quite typical of angry men in life I find.

You'd certainly know stupid Mikey boy.

You're like the clart Steffan.

by mikey_dragon Sat 31 Oct 2015, 3:14 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If you think it's going to change overnight then you're a LOT stupider than I first thought. You're also very sad coming on just to post that reply out of nowhere, but that's quite typical of angry men in life I find.

You'd certainly know stupid Mikey boy.

You're like the clart Steffan.

Hold on now.... I suggest you take that back because it's really low!

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 31 Oct 2015, 5:17 pm

Looks like the AP could do with something similar if Barnes is considered their best ref.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 9:56 am

It's about time this is happening. If the Pro12 bosses can see there is an issue with the officials in our league, can our Irish contingent on here now admit that our refs and assistants are just plain not good enough ?

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:04 am

Think it's more substandard welsh officials that need improvement LD Hug

where did the hug emoji go? changes the tone of that message completely without the hug emoji

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:07 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Think it's more substandard welsh officials that need improvement LD

where did the hug emoji go? changes the tone of that message completely without the hug emoji

They are ALL crap. We need full time, fully pro officials in charge of full time full pro players.

PROFESSIONAL REFS FOR PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS IN A PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE.

When we get that, we will start seeing massive improvements in the Pro12.

by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:12 am

LordDowlais wrote:It's about time this is happening. If the Pro12 bosses can see there is an issue with the officials in our league, can our Irish contingent on here now admit that our refs and assistants are just plain not good enough ?

If only that had been said instead of suggesting fault lies with the IRFU and potential conflicts of interest are the reason for it

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:23 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:It's about time this is happening. If the Pro12 bosses can see there is an issue with the officials in our league, can our Irish contingent on here now admit that our refs and assistants are just plain not good enough ?

If only that had been said instead of suggesting fault lies with the IRFU and potential conflicts of interest are the reason for it

You see, this is it with you lot. I see crap refs, mostly Irish, because the Welsh regions for what ever reason always seem to get the Irish refs, I see them officiating the regions against Irish opposition and being crap and inconsistent, I see them favouring the Irish provinces, and then these arguments ensue.

Then all you see is an attack on the Irish/Ireland. I have always said that referees paid by the same organisation who pays the teams is a conflict of interest. The league should pay for the officials. Yet you all keep accusing me of being a tin hatted crackpot. Well, the people in charge of the Pro12 must be the same as me now then. Rolling Eyes

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:30 am

If the Pro 12 paid these same refs you'd be happy?

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:If the Pro 12 paid these same refs you'd be happy?

I'd be happier.

by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:It's about time this is happening. If the Pro12 bosses can see there is an issue with the officials in our league, can our Irish contingent on here now admit that our refs and assistants are just plain not good enough ?

If only that had been said instead of suggesting fault lies with the IRFU and potential conflicts of interest are the reason for it

You see, this is it with you lot. I see crap refs, mostly Irish, because the Welsh regions for what ever reason always seem to get the Irish refs, I see them officiating the regions against Irish opposition and being crap and inconsistent, I see them favouring the Irish provinces, and then these arguments ensue.

Then all you see is an attack on the Irish/Ireland. I have always said that referees paid by the same organisation who pays the teams is a conflict of interest. The league should pay for the officials. Yet you all keep accusing me of being a tin hatted crackpot. Well, the people in charge of the Pro12 must be the same as me now then.

That is an attack on the Irish, the stats prove that the Irish lose more with Irish refs than win so what you see isn't what is actually happening. This season the Irish provinces have played teams from other nations 8 times with Irish refs and won 3 of them, it was 12 in total last season and the provinces lost half those games and drew 2 of the other 6 so where is the favouritism benefitting the provinces?

I can't comment on others but my position was that we don't know who paid the refs and that it would make more sense financially and ethically for the league to be doing it and it seems I was wrong and that they didn't go with the more sensible and ethical approach. Your position was the unions paid the refs because, well you said that was the case. You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 10:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If the Pro 12 paid these same refs you'd be happy?

I'd be happier.

Why? You think these refs show bias because of who they're paid by? I really can't see it myself.

by TJ Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:10 am

Well well well guess who raises "biased" refs again

Of course constant scrutiny of ref is good as is a review - and neutral assistant refs would be good.

However its utter nonsense to suggest one nation or another is hard done by because of this. Nor is ai any truer that one nation gets more refs from other nations than their share - this has been analysed thoroughly and shown to be nonsense.

Just as an example - I watched the Glasgow game yesterday both at the ground and later on telly. Fitzgibbon who is often deride on here I thought had a very good game. Watching at the ground I thought he was not strict enough on the Ospreys at the breakdown but watching again on telly actually he was fine on this. He was consistent throughout, explained his decisions well and altho giving 2 yellows to the Ospreys he had opportunity to give 5 yellows.

Glasgow can feel a bit aggrieved about the decision to penalise Lee Jones when he thought he was not held but fitzgibbon ruled the tackle was completed and thus Jones should have released the ball before he got up. Marginal call for sure but not wrong - its a split second thing. Matavesi can maybe feel a bit hard done by but the team had been warned for repeated breakdown infringements and altho Matevesi argued he was the tackler so could get up and contest without going onside Fitzgibbons ruling was that he paused too long before going in - again a split second marginal call similar to the one above. Once it was ruled a pen then he got the yellow for repeated team infringements.

Wyn Jones could have been yellowed twice - both times for interfering in rucks when off his feet and the ball on the line. the no arms tackle could easily and perhaps should have been yellow - but this time the Ospreys player got the benefit of the doubt.

Any partisan fan will see these incidents as unfair on their team - but actually its a split second judgement call and which ever way the decision goes its not clear cut - its the refs judgement on what happened in split seconds.

I also see a lot on these boards whinging about refs by posters who either misunderstand the laws or misunderstand what the decision was given for - not helped of course by the commentators getting it wrong so often

Real clear cut errors are very rare indeed.

Note in the WC 3 of the 12 refs where from the pro 12. that says something about the high quality of the pro 12 refs

I simply do not understand where you think loads of much better refs are going to come from. Yes keep on assessing and developing refs - but these guys are the best we have - help them to improve and develop more refs. we cannot magic more first class refs from no where.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:30 am

TJ, you make me laugh you really do, you have highlighted everything the ref should have done to Ospreys, but you have totally neglected to mention anything Glasgow got away with.

Glasgow cheated all day in the scrum, and were no angels at the breakdown either. Why don't you try winding your neck in for five minutes and look at a game with both eyes ?

I have no beef with Fitzgibbons reffing yesterday, he was right to yellow Ospreys twice. But he should have been more consistent and given Glasgow at least a yellow for slowing the ball down cynically. He didn't, but that is more down to him being crap and getting swayed by the home team crowd more than anything else.

by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:42 am

Here's a few comments about the ref in the Tigers v Wasps game:

"Wow. Wigglesworth having a horror show at the breakdown."

"No way was that forward"

"Ref riding the f**k out of Smith."

"Wigglesworth is c**ting this game up."

"If Smith gets a yellow from Wigglesworth it will be close to a travesty"

"Wigglesworth really is a Poopie ref."

"That was penalty wasps- tigers all off feet scrambling on the floor."

"Wigglesworth is awful."

"This, the amount of hometown refereeing that goes on at Welford road"

"He is truly dreadful and actively spoils games."

"His reffing of the scrum :lol: :lol: :lol:"

"Well, that is a horrendous decision from Wigglesworth. His breakdown decisions have been appalling all game."

"Wigglesworth again clueless at the breakdown."

And this is just from one forum!

by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:48 am

LD, not caring to comment on his idea that Irish refs favouring Irish teams is an attack on the Irish or that the facts disprove his tinpot conspiracy Rolling Eyes

by TJ Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:52 am

Lord Dowlais - it wasn't meant like that at all but I can see why it appears like that - yes the glasgow prop might have got a yellow perhaps. I didn't see the Glasgow players misbehaving in the rucks - actually I thought the rucks well played by both sides and did say that what I saw when I saw the game live was not actually true when I watched in on the telly.

so apologies if the post appeared one eyed - I was more using it as an example of both the fans ( my) one eyedness when watching live and how I saw it differently watching again letarer without the emotion and a bit of analysis of some of the contentious decisions - so apologies - it was not meant like you saw it. ruddy text based discussions - made for misunderstandings

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:55 am

TJ wrote:Lord Dowlais - it wasn't meant like that at all but I can see why it appears like that - yes the glasgow prop might have got a yellow perhaps. I didn't see the Glasgow players misbehaving in the rucks - actually I thought the rucks well played by both sides and did say that what I saw when I saw the game live was not actually true when I watched in on the telly.

so apologies if the post appeared one eyed - I was more using it as an example of both the fans ( my) one eyedness when watching live and how I saw it differently watching again letarer without the emotion and a bit of analysis of some of the contentious decisions - so apologies - it was not meant like you saw it. ruddy text based discussions - made for misunderstandings

Sorry TJ. I just thought you were being like our Irish members on here and was taking a holier than though approach to the game.

Fitzgibbon was not too bad yesterday, I thought the first yellow was harsh, but I could understand why it was given, but he only really punished one team thoroughly yesterday, and I thought Glasgow got away with a lot of things Ospreys didn't. But that I just put that down to a crap ref being a homer.

by TJ Mon 02 Nov 2015, 11:58 am

I thought the first yellow was harsh, but I could understand why it was given,

Thats part of the point I was making - its not a wrong descision - its a judgement call

the crowd was pretty partisan and it is proven that home teams get the rub of the green with decisions but it does balance out over a season

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 12:50 pm

So it's down to payment and not nationality LD?

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's down to payment and not nationality LD?

For me it is yes. I do not care if the refs are Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Italian or from Timbuktu. For me, I am uneasy with refs, players, coaches, officials, owners all being on the same payroll. The refs must be from a separate organisation than the people they are supposed to be impartially officiating. They also need to be full time professionals, the players are, they teams are, the league is, so why aren't the refs ? Perhaps if we had a team of officials all working to the same protocols, and are fully fit and fully pro we would have a higher standard product.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

Fair enough. Should be a really easy solution then.

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