Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November

First topic message reminder :

        
Ulster Rugby v Saracens
Friday 20 November 2015
KO: 19:45
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee Romain Poite (France)
Touch Judge 1 Cyril Lafon (France)
Touch Judge 2 Pierre Brousset (France)
Fourth Official Richard Kerr (Ireland)
TMO Eric Gauzins (France)

A. Head to Head

6 Played 6
1 Wins 5
5 Losses 1
0 Draws 0
98 Points 148

B. Recent Form

5 April 2014
Ulster 15-17 Saracens

6 April 2013
Saracens 27-16 Ulster

C. Teams

Ulster Rugby
 
15. Louis Ludik
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Darren Cave
12. Stuart McCloskey
11. Craig Gilroy
10. Paddy Jackson
09. Ruan Pienaar

01. Callum Black
02. Rory Best (c)
03. Wiehahn Herbst
04. Dan Tuohy
05. Franco Van Der Merwe
06. Iain Henderson
07. Chris Henry
08. Nick Williams

16. Rob Herring
17. Kyle McCall
18. Ricky Lutton
19. Robbie Diack
20. Roger Wilson
21. Paul Marshall
22. Ian Humphreys
23. Peter Nelson

Saracens

15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Duncan Taylor
12 Brad Barritt (c)
11 Chris Wyles
10 Owen Farrell
09 Richard Wigglesworth

01 Mako Vunipola
02 Schalk Brits
03 Petrus Du Plessis
04 George Kruis
05 Maro Itoje
06 Michael Rhodes
07 Jacques Burger
08 Billy Vunipola

16 Jamie George
17 Rhys Gill
18 Juan Figallo
19 Alistair Hargreaves
20 Jackson Wray
21 Neil De Kock
22 Charlie Hodgson
23 Marcelo Bosch

I understand that people think that the format has been set up by the English to benefit themselves but I'm really not sure how the games in particular have really changed. Same rules same 80 mins etc just the inevitable cycle of teams. A few English teams along with some maturing players getting better, some Irish and French falling away. Just natural to a large extent?

The format was set up so more second place teams went thru - and this was thought to benefit the english teams - however this is not the reason for the change in fortunes in any way at all. More second place qualifiers may actually end up helping the pro 12 teams in the end

I am not sure the reasons but perhaps the pro 12 teams were more disrupted by the WC as they played thru the WC missing many players - Glasgow had 21 players at the WC and perhaps this has caused the pro 12 teams to have a bit of an issue integrating the WC players back into the club teams and even maybe a bit of WC hangover for some players.

NO obvious reason gfor the change in fortunes

It's a big factor TJ. Gordon D'Arcy wrote an article after Leinster's defeat to Wasps regarding this. He alluded to the fact that some of the players had only just returned from RWC duty and there simply hadn't been time for them to become fully integrated into the systems etc. The very same can be said for Ulster with the like of Henderson getting his first gametime since the RWC. There is a bigger picture though and it effects the future of the Irish clubs in the competition. Remove the restraints of limited foreign players and introduce a Europe-wide salary cap and we might just see a complete turnaround within 5 seasons.

Which will never happen Pete. Well the 2nd bit anyway.

TJ wrote:The format was set up so more second place teams went thru - and this was thought to benefit the english teams -

Thought by people who don't have a clue what they're talking about, of course.

Hammer - it clearly was - as you well know if you are honest. But its an old debate and it looks like its not going to be needed

That debate stopped after I pulled up the numbers and there was only a single year when the AP had a disproportionate number of 2nd places in the pools and that was in the most recent (after the format had been decided). funnily enough, after I posted that the debate died. Clearly enough time has passed for you to forget that and continue prattling on about things with absolutely nothing to back it up.

HammerofThunor wrote:That debate stopped after I pulled up the numbers and there was only a single year when the AP had a disproportionate number of 2nd places in the pools and that was in the most recent (after the  format had been decided).  funnily enough, after I posted that the debate died. Clearly enough time has passed for you to forget that and continue prattling on about things with absolutely nothing to back it up.

If there is one (not quite rugby related) thing I have learned from 606, is that if you repeat the same insane statement enough times it becomes true.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which will never happen Pete. Well the 2nd bit anyway.

Sadly true.
So surely the only way to get up to the Franglos' 'level playing field' will be to scrap the salary cap altogether and allow Irish teams to sign as many NIQs as they like. That way the ball will grow more and more spherical with every passing season

It's the Franglo competition now, we simply cannot compete with things the way they are. But hey, we have the Pro12 and if that keeps chunky up at night I'm more than happy

The format isn't an issue. The fact that three of the Provinces have experienced recent big changes is. Changes of coaches and players retiring/moving on. It's also true that the provinces are a step behind AP and T14 sides due to the RWC. We lose more players to the RWC, and it takes time for those returning players to settle back in with their Provinces. Henry said as much.
For Ulster, Kiss has only just joined with us after the RWC, and he needs to be given time to get to grips with the side he has inherited. There are already very good signs that he is having a positive influence on the team, with players dropped, players promoted. Codling also appears to be a good coach who will raise the standard of Ulster A, and with the view to bringing through players to the Senior side.
We are not in a position to compete with the best in Europe right now. We were never going to be at this stage. We may be in that position in the next couple of seasons. We will just have to wait and see what Kiss brings to the table, and what any new signings bring, as well as those coming through the Academy.
There may also be changes to our coaching staff. Maybe a replacement for Clark?

Watching games like last week tends to eat away at hope, but we are going through a transition, and we do have reasons to hope that our present form will be turned around, and we will compete at the top of the table once again. Patience.

For you TJ



So you can clearly see, if you just look at the final season of the HEC, the English had most of the runner-up spots.  However, if you took this into consideration you would be an idiot because the format had already been decided by that point.  If you look at the the previous seasons, it is clear that the English are typically least represented in the runner up spots, and not once in this time had more than the 'average' 2 spots expected.

So what is your evidence that having more runners up going through is more beneficial to the English than anyone else?

Munchkin wrote:The format isn't an issue. The fact that three of the Provinces have experienced recent big changes is. Changes of coaches and players retiring/moving on. It's also true that the provinces are a step behind AP and T14 sides due to the RWC. We lose more players to the RWC, and it takes time for those returning players to settle back in with their Provinces. Henry said as much.
For Ulster, Kiss has only just joined with us after the RWC, and he needs to be given time to get to grips with the side he has inherited. There are already very good signs that he is having a positive influence on the team, with players dropped, players promoted. Codling also appears to be a good coach who will raise the standard of Ulster A, and with the view to bringing through players to the Senior side.
We are not in a position to compete with the best in Europe right now. We were never going to be at this stage. We may be in that position in the next couple of seasons. We will just have to wait and see what Kiss brings to the table, and what any new signings bring, as well as those coming through the Academy.
There may also be changes to our coaching staff. Maybe a replacement for Clark?

Watching games like last week tends to eat away at hope, but we are going through a transition, and we do have reasons to hope that our present form will be turned around, and we will compete at the top of the table once again. Patience.

I had written something quite similar and just as I was about to post my computer did a freeze.
How happy am I that I don't have to re-write my guff and that Munch has pretty much said it all since

There is an understandable lunge to over-react at such times.  But there has been a lot of messing going on with new coaches, the WC, form built to be at a peak a few weeks back, about which no more needs to be said
Connacht and Munster are doing okay.  This season might be a disappointing one in some areas but let's wait for the season to pan out.

Oh I have lots of optimism for the season ahead but only in the Pro12. I know we can compete in the Pro12 and get a playoff spot but in Europe we will never get a fair crack at the whip until the IRFU open things up a bit at least. It's still going to be a cracking season and I've found myself wanting to watch more Wasps matches so I may jump on that particular bandwagon where Europe's concerned

This season in the Pro12 will be tough. Very tough for a play off spot with Scarlets and Connacht also in the mix. We can't afford to lose many games. especially against those above us, and Ospreys.

I fully agree with the present NIQ, although Munster being denied their signing doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't have agreed to a further reduction in the NIQ though, and very happy that seems to be put to bed.
We need to bring home grown talent through, and if the NIQ is relaxed I don't think that would be the priority it is (hopefully is) now.
If we are allowed to simply buy in overseas talent we will in effect be in the rat race, and competing against the French, or we could be. That's a race we can never win.

That reminds of a chubby brown joke.

Man walks into a pet shop and asks how much the wasp is.

Shop assistant: we don't sell wasps.

Mad: Well you have one in the window.

rodders wrote:That reminds of a chubby brown joke.

Man walks into a pet shop and asks how much the wasp is.

Shop assistant: we don't sell wasps.

Mad: Well you have one in the window.

Shop assistant:  Oh in that case, right.  If you want him, he's £630. £750 if you want us to catch him for you.