The Decline In Crowds At Munster Matches Was Wholly Predictable

by Chunky Norwich Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/the-decline-in-crowds-at-munster-matches-was-wholly-predictable/316134

Only 7.200 supporters attended Munster's victory over Ulster in the Guinness Pro12 two weeks ago. Afterwards, Anthony Foley bemoaned the paltry attendance.

He told the Irish Independent;

It is disappointing that the crowd was what it was. The umbilical chord has always been there between Munster and our supporters. It's important people come and support us.

You've got to come and sample it. Watching it on TV is only armchair stuff - you've got to come here and feel it. It's important for Limerick that everyone comes out and supports the game. It's a big stadium that needs filling and it's a great atmosphere.
For Saturday's Heineken Cup opener against Treviso, the crowd was bigger but not by a whole lot.

What to make of this?

Observing the fervour of their supporters during the noughties, it was easy to assume that the red hordes have been travelling to Munster games since the earliest days of the oval game (as George Hook might phrase it).

The truth is that Munster's success in the professional era pre-dates the bulk of their following jumping on board - not the other way around.

With Munster now struggling to compete with the top sides in Europe, a large portion of that support seems to be drifting away. We asked historian Dr. Liam O'Callaghan, the author of Rugby in Munster: a social and cultural history for his assessment of this trend.

Last year, we wrote about Munster's first ever match in the Heineken Cup back in November 1995. O'Callaghan was there that day as Munster pipped Swansea thanks to late winning try by Shannon full back Pat Murray.

Thomond Park was only half-full and the chatter on the terrace was not about Munster and their chances in this new-fangled competition but about the upcoming AIL games. The main concern was that one of these Munster players might pick up an injury and miss a genuinely important match.

There were a few thousand at it, there was no real fuss about it, and everybody in the crowd was just talking about the club fixtures of the previous weekend. This Munster thing was just a gentle distraction from the much more important business of AIL fixtures.

The attendance was such at the stadium that both of us viewed the game by following the play quite easily by walking around the game to follow where the action was. It was quite easy to position oneself behind the goals at Conversion time , in a vain effort to be photographed... In terms of hype around the game, for us as supporters, we were more inquisitive as to how the new competition would take off, considering it was at a time when the AIL was the be all and end all in Irish competition terms.
O'Callaghan says the drop in Munster's attendances in recent years was wholly predictable. A transient fanbase was attracted to Munster because of their success in the last decade and now that success has disappeared they are disappearing too.

Firstly, it's no great surprise. The crowds were attracted first and foremost by success. And in the last six or seven years, that's kind of fallen away. And we're seeing crowds falling away as well.
Pre-professionalism, Munster participated in the dowdy and unglamorous inter-provincial championship every winter. This competition was accompanied by resounding public disinterest (that Ulster won it every year from 1984 to 1994 may have contributed to the southern media's lukewarm attitude to the competition). It was barely any glitzier than the Railway Cup.

If you had a touring side coming from Australia and New Zealand, then you might get a big crowd but the old inter-provincial championship was a really unloved competition, a few men and his dog used to show up to watch it. The real hardcore support went to club football... that's where you got the crowds. The Munster phenomenon only took off in the professional era so there was always something new-fangled about it in the first instance.

Given that the Munster phenomenon is relatively recent, you see a lot of flexibility around demand on the supporters side, so the entrenched loyalties that older football clubs in England would have going back 150 years may not apply to the same extent.
Will the decline in the crowds at Thomond Park continue? Well, the level of success enjoyed in the mid-noughties is unlikely to return to Munster in the short-term. Ireland's provincial teams are struggling to keep pace with the monied French outfits.

No other team - apart from the other provinces - is so dependant on the players it can produce in its immediate geographical area. If you compare that to the Toulon team that won the Heineken Cup last year, they had only one player from the city of Toulon... I really think the bar has been raised in the last few years and the Irish provincial structure and business model can't really compete.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:34 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

But you think that any new deal would be pretty close to what the AP are getting now?

Way more I'd expect.

Based on what?

All in the thread Marty. I'm not posting it again. Have a read.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:37 pm

What thread?

Anything I have read from you in the past is nothing more than you assuming because the AP can get the amount they are getting if we join them we can get it too

by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:38 pm

I'll help you out marty, it was based on the fact that the B&I league wouldn't look as attractive without the money so BT would pay a whole load more as they're desperate for more high quality rugby so would pay over what they had to so that the financial model here would work.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:40 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Chunky as I clarified I meant compete financially - of course we compete with them on the pitch that is self evident.

As to Sextons salary if we take that figure at face value and add it to the Irish provinces salary level that still puts Leinster total salary level way below that of Toulon, Clermont, Racing etc.

What is Leinster's total salary level?

Taking into account all factors it is equivalent to the English salary cap as are Munster and Ulster.
Even assuming the Sexton salary is over and above that the final figure remains considerably below the bigger spending French sides

The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:What thread?

Anything I have read from you in the past is nothing more than you assuming because the AP can get the amount they are getting if we join them we can get it too

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:42 pm

So if the Irish and now the English are able to compete comfortably in your view, why do either need this league?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if the Irish and now the English are able to compete comfortably in your view, why do either need this league?

Because only a few teams are able to (compete comfortably) at the moment. A change in competition would mean a better product, more teams with more resources, more fans paying to see better rugby more often, better quality of overseas players all round, better standard of facilities at more teams, better funded academies, better youngsters being produced, and the cycle starts again.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:49 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

by Guest Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:50 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Chunky as I clarified I meant compete financially - of course we compete with them on the pitch that is self evident.

As to Sextons salary if we take that figure at face value and add it to the Irish provinces salary level that still puts Leinster total salary level way below that of Toulon, Clermont, Racing etc.

What is Leinster's total salary level?

Taking into account all factors it is equivalent to the English salary cap as are Munster and Ulster.
Even assuming the Sexton salary is over and above that the final figure remains considerably below the bigger spending French sides

The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Do you honestly believe that Toulon are not spending more on players than that cap suggests?

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll help you out marty, it was based on the fact that the B&I league wouldn't look as attractive without the money so BT would pay a whole load more as they're desperate for more high quality rugby so would pay over what they had to so that the financial model here would work.

Its a huge assumption

Given the fact that BT have added more sports, leagues etc including the Champions League to their channels since the deal was negotiated they need the AP less than they once did.

Also given that there are 12 clubs in the AP and 10 in the Pro 12(if as I assume the Italians are being ditched) how does adding more teams work? Conferences? Extra divisions?

Either way it dilutes the chance of teams winning and progressing to the ERCC

Also one viewer in London is worth more to marketers than three from Cardiff, Swansea, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dublin or Belfast and BT already have viewers attracted to their station from these areas thanks to Europe so they need the Pro12 teams less than some like to think

by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:50 pm

But the point of this thread is that more competition doesn't necessarily lead to better crowds paying more money.

Secondary points when you ignore that are: Why would the English want to give up a great deal to help the Welsh as the Itish don't need it neither do Glasgow. We'd be giving up our brilliant refs and get a load of dross according to some posters on here as well. We'd all also lose money from Europe.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll help you out marty, it was based on the fact that the B&I league wouldn't look as attractive without the money so BT would pay a whole load more as they're desperate for more high quality rugby so would pay over what they had to so that the financial model here would work.

Its a huge assumption

Given the fact that BT have added more sports, leagues etc including the Champions League to their channels since the deal was negotiated they need the AP less than they once did.

Also given that there are 12 clubs in the AP and 10 in the Pro 12(if as I assume the Italians are being ditched) how does adding more teams work? Conferences? Extra divisions?

Either way it dilutes the chance of teams winning and progressing to the ERCC

Also one viewer in London is worth more to marketers than three from Cardiff, Swansea, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dublin or Belfast and BT already have viewers attracted to their station from these areas thanks to Europe so they need the Pro12 teams less than some like to think

7.5 was giving you a sarcastic summary of Chunkey's opinion

by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:54 pm

Yes I was, sorry marty! We really need a sarcasm smiley if we haven't already!

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

I can't win then really can I?

I provide a fact. A number audited by DNACG and I "really do not help myself".

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Also given that there are 12 clubs in the AP and 10 in the Pro 12(if as I assume the Italians are being ditched) how does adding more teams work? Conferences? Extra divisions?

Just read it Marty for goodness sake.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

The English clubs also have 2 exemptions to the cap plus are allowed up to £400k for injury cover season and also get credits for English players being away on international squad which was £35k per player during the RWC and can claim up to 80k per player at times

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes I was, sorry marty! We really need a sarcasm smiley if we haven't already!

Reading Chunkys posts for too long has caused my sarcasm sensor to malfunction as that would be a serious post from him Erm

by **LondonTiger** Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
The English salary cap this year is £5.5m. Add on Sexton's 500k and we get £6m.

Toulon's player salary last season was £5.99m

Hmmmm.

Oh dear, you really do not help yourself.

Unless you are completely unaware that the official salary budget is only a fraction of the total amount paid by Toulon to their players

I can't win then really can I?

I provide a fact. A number audited by DNACG and I "really do not help myself".

Toulon are perfectly open about their true spending - something I think you are aware of.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:05 pm

LondonTiger wrote:

Toulon are perfectly open about their true spending - something I think you are aware of.

Yes, unlike the Irish clubs. The £5.99m figure comes directly from Toulon. That's what they paid on wages last year. They also have clothes ranges etc for certain players. Just like Sexton has a 200,000 Euros deal with Topaz for his extra earnings.

Absolutely no difference.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:09 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:

Toulon are perfectly open about their true spending - something I think you are aware of.

Yes, unlike the Irish clubs. The £5.99m figure comes directly from Toulon. That's what they paid on wages last year. They also have clothes ranges etc for certain players. Just like Sexton has a 200,000 Euros deal with Topaz for his extra earnings.

Absolutely no difference.

See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

by Guest Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:26 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

So you can produce the accounts of all these sides, including the Provinces, and point out the difference in transparency? Can you?

by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:30 pm

The annual release of financial figures from the French Top 14 sides reveals a trend that continues to sky-rocket.

On Monday, The Ligue Nationale de Rugby released the figures through its Direction Nationale d'Aide et de Contrôle de Gestion [DNACG] financial arm.

In total, the league's 14 teams have combined debt of €33.8 million. Only two sides are operating at a profit - Toulon [€690,000] and Brive [€202,000].

Midi Olympique report that Racing Métro, Castres and Stade Francais are the three clubs most in debt - combining for a €19.7m blotch of red.

The DNACG report also highlights the exploding wage-bill most French clubs are dealing with. In the past decade, Toulon - the league's biggest spenders - have upped their outgoings from €18m a year to €35m. Just over a third of that is said to be on player wages [€11m] but sponsorship and commercial payments often go to players through different departments so the true figure would be close to €15m.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:36 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

Actually we had been discussing the AP aswell but whatever you say

Producing accounts does not equate to the French have to give full details of their wages

The Welsh salary cap is for Europe not the league

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:37 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

So you can produce the accounts of all these sides, including the Provinces, and point out the difference in transparency? Can you?

The welsh and english teams' accounts are all on companies house website I believe. Some people have a problem with transparency because not all the teams' accounts are available.

by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:38 pm

From Wiki

For the season 2011–2012, the LNR raised the salary cap to €8.7 million.[14] Since then, the cap has risen still further, to €10 million starting in 2013–14 and continuing through 2015–16. Additionally, the cap now excludes youth players whose salaries are no more than €50,000.

From Rugby World
Among the less interesting pages on the official France Federation website is one entitled ‘DNACG’. I don’t recommend a visit, not unless you’re an insomniac. Let me explain. DNACG stands for Direction Nationale d’Aide et de Contrôle de Gestion and, as one French newspaper recently put it, it’s the “financial gendarme of professional rugby”. In other words, the DNACG’s job is to police the finances of the 30 professional French clubs (the Top 14 and the 16 clubs that comprise the Pro D2). The DNACG is managed by both the FFR and the LNR but answers ultimately to the former.

Why is this relevant? To allay suspicions in some quarters that French clubs have a somewhat laissez-aller attitude when it comes to finance, in particular staying within the €10m salary cap.

Nothing could be further from the truth. As any ex-pat who has lived in France will tell you, the French do many things well – cheese, wine and long lunches – but possibly what they excel in most is bureaucracy. Red Tape is an art form in France, and that applies to their rugby.

The DNACG’s code of practice, as published on the LNR’s website, runs to 24 pages and contains enough clauses and articles to bore all but the most stoic to tears. To cut a long story short: the DNACG has the power to scrutinise the accounts of all 30 clubs whenever it sees fit, and punish accordingly with fines up to a maximum of €2m. And they do.

Do you still think the Toulon salary is limited to £5.99m i.e. less than the English and the Irish - honestly is that your position Chunky !

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

As a non member the answer would be no

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Do you still think the Toulon salary is limited to £5.99m i.e. less than the English and the Irish - honestly is that your position Chunky !

The salary is yes. As you just proved by posting what DNACG does.

by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:42 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
See now that's just a cheap shot implying the Irish are somehow hiding something, firstly the French clubs are REQUIRED to provide the information by the LNR and I think by French law too

Secondly how open are the Welsh, Scottish or English about their spending?

We are discussing the Irish wage levels compared to the French, it's hardly a cheap shot to compare their transparency.

As Ltd companies, the Welsh teams are required to publish their accounts. As I expect are the English.

The salary cap of the Welsh has raised from £3.5m to £4.5m so you can guess what range their salary levels are at pretty easily.

So you can produce the accounts of all these sides, including the Provinces, and point out the difference in transparency? Can you?

The welsh and english teams' accounts are all on companies house website I believe. Some people have a problem with transparency because not all the teams' accounts are available.

Details of Irish rugby accounts can be found on the Irish equivalent of Companies House - no difference

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

As a non member the answer would be no

So the provincial practice is "more than presenting your accounts to Companies House", yet you haven't got access to a single figure to show me.

Right.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:43 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

Details of Irish rugby accounts can be found on the Irish equivalent of Companies House - no difference

The provinces separate accounts?

by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:47 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Do you still think the Toulon salary is limited to £5.99m i.e. less than the English and the Irish - honestly is that your position Chunky !

The salary is yes. As you just proved by posting what DNACG does.

Reread the articles I posted the salary cap is 10 million euro, the suspicion is Toulon are getting around that to the tune of a further 1 million euro.
In addition any youth player is not included - they can earn up to 50,000 euro.

A lot of youth players I suspect.

To maintain a position that Toulon and others do not outspend the likes of Leicester, Ulster, Saints etc etc is bizarre

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:50 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

Reread the articles I posted the salary cap is 10 million euro, the suspicion is Toulon are getting around that to the tune of a further 1 million euro.
In addition any youth player is not included - they can earn up to 50,000 euro.

A lot of youth players I suspect.

To maintain a position that Toulon and others do not outspend the likes of Leicester, Ulster, Saints etc etc is bizarre

Yes. so salary is 5.99m. Other expenditure on top is paid.

I think that not acknowledging that the likes of Leinster don't also do it, is even more bizarre.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:53 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The Irish provinces present their accounts at AGMs to their members and give details on things like wages there, which is more than presenting your accounts to Companies House which could simply list salaries under creditors which is hardly transparent if you a salary cap to adhere to

Fantastic. Have you got a breakdown of your province's accounts?

As a non member the answer would be no

So the provincial practice is "more than presenting your accounts to Companies House", yet you haven't got access to a single figure to show me.

Right.

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:56 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

Details of Irish rugby accounts can be found on the Irish equivalent of Companies House - no difference

The provinces separate accounts?

by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:02 pm

So in the end its all about giving the Welsh a handout.

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:02 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

More than we know about the Irish provinces. Which is the whole point.

by Guest Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:25 pm

What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs. I know you try to excuse them by quoting the salary cap, but the salaries are not limited to the salary cap. You know this, yet you keep beating the same drum. Is there a point to this?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:33 pm

Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

by Guest Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:56 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

I know that, but what's the point of going over the same old ground? You know Toulon pay more to their players than the salary cap allows. You know Toulon pay much more to their players than any of the Provinces. So what exactly is it that you're trying to say?

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:46 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

I know that, but what's the point of going over the same old ground? You know Toulon pay more to their players than the salary cap allows. You know Toulon pay much more to their players than any of the Provinces. So what exactly is it that you're trying to say?

I think he's trying to show how unattractive Ireland is to play in. Despite the fact Leinster has a bigger budget than Toulon, we are signing journeymen such as Triggs, Goodman and Maks Van Dyk in recent seasons and Toulon are bringing in Manoa, Nonu, Cooper, JOC, Mitchell to name but a few. Or perhaps he is having a laugh with us and actually meant the combined budget of all the provinces is the same as Toulon?

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

More than we know about the Irish provinces. Which is the whole point.

Have you actually looked at them all then and what the Provinces report?

by marty2086 Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:25 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:What point? This has been debated many many times on here, and it's always you that seems stuck on it, Chunky. You simply can't believe the spending of the Provinces is anywhere near the top T14 clubs.

Geoff999rugby states on this thread, that Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend upwards of £5.5m
Toulon officially state that their salary spend was £5.9m last season.

These are not my figures. They are Geoff's and Toulon's.

The salary cap is £5.5m this season, it was £4.75m last season when Toulon were spending their £5.9m and this season they have added O'Connell, Manoa, Ma'afu, Cooper, Vermuelen, Stevens and Nonu

by **LondonTiger** Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
The salary cap is £5.5m this season, it was £4.75m last season when Toulon were spending their £5.9m and this season they have added O'Connell, Manoa, Ma'afu, Cooper, Vermuelen, Stevens and Nonu

I know it was not your number - but it looks far too light to even be the official salary bill. The most recent report is here http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/zRapportDNACG_2015-WEB_20150414.pdf and I think refers to the 13/14 season. Toulon spent 30m Euros in total, of which 11.9m Euros was direct salaries. At least 50% can be added to that for various club sourced sponsorship and image rights payments that have to be included within PRL salary cap.

by VinceWLB Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:23 pm

The Salary cap means absolutely Poopie in the top 14. I don't even know why it exists.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:33 pm

VinceWLB wrote:The Salary cap means absolutely Poopie in the top 14. I don't even know why it exists.

It actually does the opposite of what it is suppose to do. All the other teams are restricted in the amount they can spend but the likes of Toulon and Racing can spent what they want because their rich owners can get their business to "sponsor" players.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Yes because they have to go into detail to their members, they have to justify the figures which is more than is required for lodging accounts with Companies House

And do you have a figure on what the 4 regions spent on wages?

But their members don't divulge a single figure. So how on earth is it anywhere near the same?

Have a look on companies house.

Because the members are who those running the provinces have to report to

What will the accounts tell me?

More than we know about the Irish provinces. Which is the whole point.

Have you actually looked at them all then and what the Provinces report?

I can't find what the provinces report. Someone on this thread told me that they're available on the internet. I'd be willing to pay a few quid to see their accounts if you could point me in the right direction.

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