Nevin Spence for WC squad.

I think Nevin Spence will go to the World Cup with Ireland, this is why.....

Firstly if as expected 4 centres are going to the WC, we know that O'Driscoll will be going and one would also assume that provided he is fit D'Arcy will also be going. So thats the first choice 12 and first choice 13. After this many believe Paddy Wallace will be taken as the second choice 12 given that he covers 10 as well. After this we are then looking for another 13. For me Nevin Spence is the 13 behind O'Driscoll and he will therefore be brought as second choice 13.

Now, a lot of people are insisting that Fergus McFadden will go. If this is the case then i can only see him being taken instead of Paddy Wallace. It would make no sense whatsoever to bring O'Driscoll as the only out and out 13 in the whole squad, in fact it would be a very silly thing to do. D'Arcy, Wallace and McFadden are all 12's, i think the chances of Kidney taking 3 inside centres and only 1 outside centre is fairly remote. If anyone was going to be taken over Spence then it would be another 13 like O'Malley, not a 12 whose played most of his rugby on the left wing this season. It should also be pointed out that Spence covers 12 as well as 13 which would make him pretty invaluable for the squad.

Therefore the 3 centres i would have nailed down are O'Driscoll, D'Arcy and Spence.

The question will then be who the second inside centre is between Wallace and McFadden. This is difficult because Wallace has had very little gametime for Ulster recently, Ulster were mainly playing a partnership of Spence and Cave in the centres towards the end of the season, similarly McFadden spent most of his season on the left wing only playing 12 when D'Arcy was injured. Either way one of McFadden or Wallace will be left behind. Wallace covers 12 and 10, McFadden 12 and 11. I wouldnt be fussed

I think 3 of our 4 centres for the WC are:

O'Driscoll (13)
D'Arcy (12)
Spence (12 and 13)

Whether or not we really need Wallace's cover at 10 im not sure, but it doesnt make a huge amount of sense to me to bring McFadden either given how little gametime hes had at centre.

Either way i just wanted to respond to a lot of posts ive been seeing suggesting that we will bring 1 outside centre and 3 inside centres as its ridiculous. There is no way D'Arcy, Wallace and McFadden will all go as 12's with O'Driscoll as the only 13, for these reasons I think Spence will definately go as the second choice 13.

Please discuss and if anyone thinks im wrong in the way ive summed this up please point it out to me.

Paddy Wallace covers 10
Fergus McFadden covers wing and centre
Both are already capped
Spence is not a 12
Earls and Bowe play 13 also

Those are the reasons Spence won't go.

He shouldn't go.It means dropping a more versatile player like Earls or Trimble.Also it is too soon for him to go.

red_stag wrote:Paddy Wallace covers 10
Fergus McFadden covers wing and centre
Both are already capped
Spence is not a 12
Earls and Bowe play 13 also

Those are the reasons Spence won't go.

Paddy Wallace has played 10 twice this season.
McFadden has played centre very little this season.

I dont see your logic as you saying a few games at 12 means "Spence is not a 12" but a few games at 10 and Paddy Wallace does cover 10? Similarly a couple of games at 12 and McFadden covers 12??

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, I will be stunned if Kidney brings McFadden and Wallace, or either of them over Spence.

I'm a big fan but I think it's maybe 1 year too soon.

McFadden has played centre very little this season.

He's played plenty of games in the center. Plus we might only be taking 3 centers. In which case Kidney will go for BOD, Darcy and Wallace.

I seriously doubt that Spence will go, but i think he might be brilliant if he was thrown in at the deep end. As someone who has watched Ulster this season, I've been blown away by how much confidence the young guys have. I have felt that the older players who have been in and out of the international squad so much are constantly aware of the pressure to prove something which often leads to being too cautious, or nerves. Paddy Wallace and Trimble have done this countless times.

The young guys know that they arent under pressure (or are just immune to it) and i feel it gives them freedom to play very naturally and very passionatly.

The pressure of an international selection eye on these young guys could potentially ruin everything.

Mickado wrote:

McFadden has played centre very little this season.

He's played plenty of games in the center. Plus we might only be taking 3 centers. In which case Kidney will go for BOD, Darcy and Wallace.

Ive checked Leinsters last games of the season the only one that McFadden played at 12 was against Munster. In fact even when Leinster thumped Glasgow McFadden was benching and was then subbed onto the left wing. Against Ulster in the semi final he started on the right wing. For most of Leinsters other matches he was benching and then being subbed onto the wing.

Im actually in the process of figuring out whose played more at 12 this season between McFadden and Spence, as I think it might be Spence, particularly recently.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, I will be stunned if Kidney brings McFadden and Wallace, or either of them over Spence.

You're going to be stunned!

They'll bring three out and out centres and then a few players who can cover there.

He'll definitely be in the 50 man squad and, ideally, I'd like to see him given a shot in one of the warm up matches but I don't see Kidney taking him. A 30 man squad is very small and he's definitely taking Paddy Wallace. He loves him and has had him in pretty much every match day squad of importance since he became coach. He's asked Ulster to play him at 10 during the season specifically so he can bring Wallace and have the option of him on the bench instead of ROG/Sexton for more versatility. If, as you suggest, he takes four centres McFadden would be the other one going. He's been involved in the squads of Ireland and Leinster and didn't put a foot wrong. He also scored a try in the six nations and has more versatility than Spence. In saying that I'm a big fan of Spence though. I hope he gets a chance in the warm up matches and if he outplays the competition you never know. Either way I hope he's involved in the six nations squad next year so he can be groomed to take over from the great one. He definitely looks like the most likely candidate to takeover the 13 jersey for Ireland in the future anyway.

MBTGOG wrote:

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, I will be stunned if Kidney brings McFadden and Wallace, or either of them over Spence.

You're going to be stunned!

They'll bring three out and out centres and then a few players who can cover there.

Lol - I hope im not going to have to join the chorus calling for Kidneys head post WC :p

Bring Paddy Wallace to the WC over Spence is a joke in my opinion, Im sure most Ulster fans will agree that at 10 or 12 Wallace as done very little this season, granted injury didnt help. Spence has been our best back this season.

Prepare to be "stunned".

red_stag wrote:Prepare to be "stunned".

Evidently im going to be as most people dont see it the way I see it.

I will reiterate what I said above - Paddy Wallace shouldnt be anywhere near a WC squad, If he was to play against even the weaker opposition like Italy at 10 or 12 I would be very worried.

Granted some people may be right in saying its too soon for Spence.

Sorry Dodger, you are in a minority of one on this.
Good player that he undoubtably is, he won't be there. Kidney will not start tinkering too much with his tried and trusted squad. I'm with the other guys on the options for No.13 - Bowe & Earls.
If Kidney wasn't thinking of taking Paddy then he would have ditched him pre-6N. He didn't so expect him to go.

I say you'd even be in the minority amongst Ulster fans there Dodger.

Artful, you should have a chat with another Ulster poster called Notch I'd like to see that actually. He's quite the Paddy Wallace fan.

red_stag wrote:Artful, you should have a chat with another Ulster poster called Notch I'd like to see that actually. He's quite the Paddy Wallace fan.

Stag you Right little Poopie stirrer you are becoming

red_stag wrote:Artful, you should have a chat with another Ulster poster called Notch I'd like to see that actually. He's quite the Paddy Wallace fan.

Great player that Paddy Wallace is, I think the fact that Ulster were playing Cave and Spence in the centre towards the latter half of the season says a lot, regardless of reasons, Paddy Wallace is going to have to get some form quickly in the Ireland warm up games. To only take 2 fly halves with Paddy Wallace covering the 3rd fly half spot and one of three centre spots is unrealistic to me, even if there are back 3 players that cover centre, having 5 real fly halves and centres combined is very very thin.

Earls is not an outside centre in any sense in my opinion, he doesnt have the distribution for a 13. Bowe is best on the wing. I can see why Wallace will be taken as hes really the only option as a 3rd fly half, but there should definately be 4 centres taken in my opinion.

Rava, I'm serious. I think its pretty interesting. We have two Ulster fans one who thinks Wallace is a very good talent who maybe might start for Ireland. The other who wouldn't even have him in his Ulster team.

It would be good. The poopie remains lumpy and unstirred!

Earls' distribution isn't good enough yet Spence's is?

Also, the only thing that it says about Spence and Cave starting towards the end of the season was that both Wallace and Marshall were injured.

red_stag wrote:Rava, I'm serious. I think its pretty interesting. We have two Ulster fans one who thinks Wallace is a very good talent who maybe might start for Ireland. The other who wouldn't even have him in his Ulster team.

It would be good. The poopie remains lumpy and unstirred!

Realistically Paddy Wallace has no form right now, having had a very patchy season partly due to injury, on top of this he has always failed to impress for Ireland bar in one match against the Pacific Islands...

I would suggest he has a lot to do to get back to where he was. Spence is in outstanding form and would be my 4th centre if I was Kidney :p

Stag, I am a big Wallace fan as well but maybe not to Notch's extent.

I wouldn't have him on the WC plane but I think Kidney has left it too late to change his original intentions. That said it wouldn't be Spence I would replace him with.

By the way can I just point out, if Ireland do as many here are suggesting by taking Sexton, O'Gara, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll and Wallace to cover 10,12,13.

Then all specialist fly halves and centres would be starting in the 22.

ie;

Sexton starting at 10, D'Arcy and O'Driscoll at 12 and 13.
O'Gara covering 10 from bench, Wallace covering 12 from bench.

None of the back three players cover 12, so i would suggest that surely an extra 4th centre must be taken for the whole WC.

If Wallace doesn't go then we have no experienced cover for 12.

Spence is not good enough to warrant a place as he only plays 13 to the required standard, where as players like Earls, Bowe and Fitzgerald can all cover that position adequately.

MBTGOG wrote:If Wallace doesn't go then we have no experienced cover for 12.

Spence is not good enough to warrant a place as he only plays 13 to the required standard, where as players like Earls, Bowe and Fitzgerald can all cover that position adequately.

Yes Wallace should go but thats still only 3 out and out centres, i would take 4. It would be between Spence and McFadden for the 4th spot, i would go with Spence and he has played 12 to a more than adequate standard at the end of this season.

4 centres won't be taken due to the small size of the squads permitted.

Spence played well against the Dragons at 12, but his limited skill set at inside centre was shown up against Leinster.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, I will be stunned if Kidney brings McFadden and Wallace, or either of them over Spence.

You're going to be stunned!

They'll bring three out and out centres and then a few players who can cover there.

Lol - I hope im not going to have to join the chorus calling for Kidneys head post WC :p

Bring Paddy Wallace to the WC over Spence is a joke in my opinion, Im sure most Ulster fans will agree that at 10 or 12 Wallace as done very little this season, granted injury didnt help. Spence has been our best back this season.

To be honest... you're insane!

Spence and Wallace are two completely contrasting styles of player for a start- which is why they gel together quite well. Wallace has played three times at 10 this season at the direct request of the IRFU so if they're looking for a player to cover 10/12 it would clearly be him. You seem unaware that it was injury that resulted in Spence moving to 12. PW broke his thumb against Leinster (he is expected to be fine by the time pre-season comes).

Also, you're ignoring the weaknesses in Spences game. He's been our best back this season but he still needs to work on his core skills of offloading, passing and kicking. He can improve a lot over the next few seasons, to the point where I believe he will be our next 13. He was really exposed against the well-organised defence of Leinster in the semi-final whereas he made hay against the weak midfield defence of the Dragons. International defences are quite tight and it often takes more variety to break through- I feel he could easily be defended by a well-organised defence unless paired with a playmaker 12 as he is at Ulster because he plays a simple game and plays it well. I don't like one-dimensional 12s- that's just a personal preference.

You're also ignoring the fact Wallace has 26 caps and Spence 0- and that Wallace has a relationship he's established across those caps with the other players in the Ireland backline and is familiar with the defensive systems and patterns of play Ireland use.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

red_stag wrote:Artful, you should have a chat with another Ulster poster called Notch I'd like to see that actually. He's quite the Paddy Wallace fan.

Great player that Paddy Wallace is, I think the fact that Ulster were playing Cave and Spence in the centre towards the latter half of the season says a lot, regardless of reasons

Probably says you can't play rugby with a broken thumb. That's what I would take from it. Wallace and Luke Marshall were both out injured- Trimble as well.

In all seriousness, Wallace is a player who divides opinion. But what has been clear this season is the extent to which he and Humphreys have gotten the best out of Spence.

I'm serious, watch the two of them again against Bath or Northampton if you can. Wallace often puts him in space. Of course, Spence gets the plaudits he deserves- and he does deserve them- but Wallace plays a very understated role there in that he maintains the fluidity and continuity in the midfield and puts others in space.

If you can look at the game we played against Leinster at the RDS in the regular season with Wallace at 12, then look at the semi-final. Compare and contrast our play in attack with Wallace at 12 and Spence at 12. He makes such a big difference to our team- he's truly essential to the way we play the game. Wallace has had an up and down season because he's had a few injuries at times, he's missed games to sit on the bench in international windows, he's had to play a few games in 10 but his form in the Heineken Cup has been pretty good. He's had a few poor games in the ML and a few good games. I'm not really worried about him if he is selected to play for Ireland.

Notch wrote:Probably says you can't play rugby with a broken thumb.

Pfffft. What a girl, eh?

I've played with a broken thumb. Ok, I was playing cards, but it was, like, manly cards, right.

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, I will be stunned if Kidney brings McFadden and Wallace, or either of them over Spence.

You're going to be stunned!

They'll bring three out and out centres and then a few players who can cover there.

Lol - I hope im not going to have to join the chorus calling for Kidneys head post WC :p

Bring Paddy Wallace to the WC over Spence is a joke in my opinion, Im sure most Ulster fans will agree that at 10 or 12 Wallace as done very little this season, granted injury didnt help. Spence has been our best back this season.

To be honest... you're insane!

Spence and Wallace are two completely contrasting styles of player for a start- which is why they gel together quite well. Wallace has played three times at 10 this season at the direct request of the IRFU so if they're looking for a player to cover 10/12 it would clearly be him. You seem unaware that it was injury that resulted in Spence moving to 12. PW broke his thumb against Leinster (he is expected to be fine by the time pre-season comes).

Also, you're ignoring the weaknesses in Spences game. He's been our best back this season but he still needs to work on his core skills of offloading, passing and kicking. He can improve a lot over the next few seasons, to the point where I believe he will be our next 13. He was really exposed against the well-organised defence of Leinster in the semi-final whereas he made hay against the weak midfield defence of the Dragons. International defences are quite tight and it often takes more variety to break through- I feel he could easily be defended by a well-organised defence unless paired with a playmaker 12 as he is at Ulster because he plays a simple game and plays it well. I don't like one-dimensional 12s- that's just a personal preference.

You're also ignoring the fact Wallace has 26 caps and Spence 0- and that Wallace has a relationship he's established across those caps with the other players in the Ireland backline and is familiar with the defensive systems and patterns of play Ireland use.

Well Ive accepted above that Wallace should go as he covers 10 and 12 and is the only player with that skill set. My argument is that 4 centres should be brought in the 30 man squad with one fewer back three player and lets face it if Fitzgerald goes to the WC the way hes been playing this season its a travesty.

You are right of course looking over the squad of 30 Spence shouldnt really go. But at the same time, what are the chances of Paddy Wallace really being utilised at this WC as third choice 10 and second choice 12. I also really hope Luck Fitzgerald doesnt get on the plane as well, yet I know he will as hes been playing on left wing for Leinster and McFadden very strangely hasnt.

Kidney has made some very odd decisions with players like Wallace and Fitzgerald. Im not very hopeful for this WC to be honest. McFadden going instead of Fitzgerald would also do the job. McFadden covering 12 and left wing leaving plenty of options for baack 3 and centres.

Those decisions, to be fair, have been backed up by the provincial coaches. McLaughlin and Schmidt have backed Wallace and Fitzgerald all the way in the big matches. That makes it easier for Kidney to pick them but I would argue there is a good reason why both have been persevered with

Les Kiss on the Ruggamatrix podcast said they keenly track every individuals form, but the also discuss class (which is permanent). I think a lot will be decided by the warm-up matches.

These players won't take to the field in a competitive game again until August. The form of last season, whether good or bad, is lasts seasons form. After they have a holiday, get their head away from the game, relax then do a full pre-season it seems very remote. Everyone gets a fresh start.

Kidney is too conservative for that. I would have D'arcy nowhere near this squad. I'll leave the internal politics to you.

Come to think of it your absolutely right Glas he had a shocker against Munster and hasnt been brilliant recently.

He didn't play against Munster, he was injured. McFadden and BOD were the centres.

Notch wrote:He didn't play against Munster, he was injured. McFadden and BOD were the centres.

Northampton game I was thinking of, although he picked it up in second half. Shocking first 40 minutes.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Notch wrote:He didn't play against Munster, he was injured. McFadden and BOD were the centres.

Northampton game I was thinking of, although he picked it up in second half. Shocking first 40 minutes.

Ah but so did the entire Leinster team. Brian O'Driscoll would never be selected for Ireland again if judged on the 1st half of the HEC Final.

Maybe they all werent great first 40, but D'Arcy was one of the standout poor performers. If D'Arcy is missing tackles you know hes not in good form.

Post removed

Harsh words Rava, harsh words!

True though.

Its true for you Rava (I read what you said earlier).

Haha couple of points a) what did Rava say to get modded? b) I love the way glas strolls in to poke the fire and then nips out again.

AD with respect I think you're wrong on Spence for nearly all of the reasons above. I think he's certainly a better prospect than Cave, and would definitely be my choice to replace BOD when the time comes.

On that note I'd like to pose a question. I always meant to do an article about this on YE olde 606 but never got around to it. The day is imminent when BOD will hang up his boots (and my imminent I mean within 2 years. In that time can anyone see Spence or someone else being selected ahead of him? The underlying point is this; will BOD ever be dropped from the Ireland side?... Something to ponder over.

AD welcome to the forum. It's nice to have more Ulster posters here, makes it feel like home.