Australia v England, 11 June

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AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
11 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

44 Played 44
25 Won 18
1 Drawn 1
18 Lost 25
940 Points 674

B. Recent Form

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 

Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore (captain), Greg Holmes, Rory Arnold, Rob Simmons, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, David Pocock.

Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, James Slipper, Sekope Kepu, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Sean McMahon, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown; 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Luther Burrell, 11. Marland Yarde; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Dan Cole, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Chris Robshaw, 7. James Haskell, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Matt Mullan, 18. Paul Hill, 19. Joe Launchbury, 20. Courtney Lawes, 21. Danny Care, 22. George Ford, 23. Jack Nowell.

lostinwales wrote:Itoje to take the kicks and play at fly half

He's like a second John "Nobody" Eales.

Re: Harrison's penalties, maybe it is a sample of 1, but it's important because it's his only international game. It's not a reason to rule him out long term, but it does show that he has some work-ons to be properly ready for international level. McCaw used to reckon on conceding a maximum of two penalties a game, because if you can't calibrate to what the referee wants by then you've lost control. It's a material stat in what was otherwise a pretty good debut.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Itoje to take the kicks and play at fly half

He's like a second John "Nobody" Eales.

Re: Harrison's penalties, maybe it is a sample of 1, but it's important because it's his only international game. It's not a reason to rule him out long term, but it does show that he has some work-ons to be properly ready for international level. McCaw used to reckon on conceding a maximum of two penalties a game, because if you can't calibrate to what the referee wants by then you've lost control. It's a material stat in what was otherwise a pretty good debut.

Read was penalised 5 times in a world cup game, Mccaw 4 times in 2 tests last year.

Harrison was abrasive and nuggety against Wales. He has got dog and is a good player for England. Robshaw is technically very good particularly his tackling and overall work rate but he hasn't got that belligerent dog in him.

They are both good enough to play for England. The good thing about Robshaw etc is that we know they could come back into this set up and let nobody down

It will be a mistake to go into this test without any real pace (either Harrison or Clifford) in our back row.

Also it will be a waste to play Itoje at 6 as we have already been there with square pegs in round holes.

Yup, playing watson on the wing for instance.

Lawes and Itoje at six looks like the same kind of thinking but it isn't.

Lawes started on the flank against France in 2013 because Haskell's preparations had been disrupted by the flu. Lancaster always preferred to use players already with his squad, rather than draft someone in from outside. The same thinking saw him use Tom Wood at number eight. He valued continuity, and wanted to encourage a certain interchangeability. Sometimes it worked (e.g. Brown on the wing against NZ in 2012, Barritt at outside centre against Australia in 2014), but it was also a reason for some of his failures.

If Jones does select Itoje, it won't be because his options are constrained. Rather it'll be because he wants to present a different kind of threat. I think that's important, because the team doesn't take the pitch with any nagging feeling that they are being asked to make do.

There's reasonable evidence too that Itoje is a better breakdown operator than Lawes, so he may fare better at Test level in this position.

Perhaps Jones has more to his strategy than trying to blast Australia up front. He might believe that England can steal a lot of Australian lineout ball, which would be interesting. Australia have profited from an efficient maul, so losing ball would cause a tactical rethink, while turning our long touchfinders into more of a danger for them.

Well, we'll see. If that starting XV ends up being announced, then it'll be interesting to see the bench. With three locks on the pitch, you don't necessarily need Lawes, and could select two from Robshaw, Harrison & Clifford for more tactical flexibility. Those choices will be a strong clue to the overall gameplan.

If I remember correctly most people were wanting to see Lawes at 6 and wood at 8 (in different games) so shouldn't criticise Lancaster for going that route.

Im not convinced on Itoje at 6, even though I see the strengths.

I'd prefer our flanks to be made up from Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Harrison (well, from the current squad anyway)

Hmmm, it could be horses for courses. Or it could be that (1) EJ doesn’t actually know what BR he wants and/or (2) our best club flankers aren’t our best test flankers and/or (3) Itoje really is the super-human universal rugby player type that SL was convinced existed.

Yeah 1 is quite likely...and it could be a bluff and old Chris runs out at 6 after all....

Barney McGrew did it wrote: (3) Itoje really is the super-human universal rugby player type that SL was convinced existed.

And we now know that is true

There's going to be some cross over in the next 6 months or so. We have some guys still in the team/squad who are very good players but that next batch are now coming through strongly. They are there or there abouts and promise to be a little better than those we've had available in last 5-10 years; as above the hated term of golden generation. I can understand the want for Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje in the same team and Itoje looks like he can play 6. As we know it may not work but I'd be tempted to try it, maybe not from the off though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote: (3) Itoje really is the super-human universal rugby player type that SL was convinced existed.

And we now know that is true

I was going to say do you have to ask?

George Carlin wrote:I feel sorry for Itoje if people think that he is the secret answer to England's breakdown black hole.

He is very fast for a big feller and has some skills on the floor but he is correctly classified as a lock who should be trying to sharpen that core skillset still further. I am in favour of have a proper fetcher and also in not selecting players to compensate for the weaker aspects of other players who are coach's favourites.

I am worried that Haskell may be in no man's land in defensive phase play here. John Hardie has changed Scotland's loose forward unit in less than a season and I think that Clifford could be the real deal if he is just allowed to play.

I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

George Carlin I wouldn't underestimate Itoje's breakdown abilities, his turnover rate per match is very good. Per match he makes more than a 7 like Ksevic.

He was leading the AP turnover stats till he went to play for England. Ksevic overtook him in his absence.

Itoje at 6 is a risk, of course it is. Itoje is such a talented all round rugby player that he could make it work at 6 but shunting players around isn't always a recipe for success.

I just hope we don't see a backrow of Itoje,Haskell,Vunipola. As others have said - just too slow. Clifford for Haskell has better balance as others have said.

Robshaw has a nice workrate but you need more than that. He lacks power and he's not the strongest ball carrier.

beshocked wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I feel sorry for Itoje if people think that he is the secret answer to England's breakdown black hole.

He is very fast for a big feller and has some skills on the floor but he is correctly classified as a lock who should be trying to sharpen that core skillset still further. I am in favour of have a proper fetcher and also in not selecting players to compensate for the weaker aspects of other players who are coach's favourites.

I am worried that Haskell may be in no man's land in defensive phase play here. John Hardie has changed Scotland's loose forward unit in less than a season and I think that Clifford could be the real deal if he is just allowed to play.

I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

George Carlin I wouldn't underestimate Itoje's breakdown abilities, his turnover rate per match is very good. Per match he makes more than a 7 like Ksevic.

He was leading the AP turnover stats till he went to play for England. Ksevic overtook him in his absence.

Itoje at 6 is a risk, of course it is. Itoje is such a talented all round rugby player that he could make it work at 6 but shunting players around isn't always a recipe for success.

I just hope we don't see a backrow of Itoje,Haskell,Vunipola. As others have said - just too slow. Clifford for Haskell has better balance as others have said.

Robshaw has a nice workrate but you need more than that. He lacks power and he's not the strongest ball carrier.

Itoje made two really quality steals in the AP final. I distinctly remember one of them because he had both Harry Williams and Luke Cowan-Dickie attempting to clear him out. Unbelievable strength, especially for a 21 year old.

George Carlin wrote:....
I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

I think that is always the downside of working while wearing a cloak of invisibility. Nobody can see you doing it.

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:....
I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

I think that is always the downside of working while wearing a cloak of invisibility. Nobody can see you doing it.

Or are you just not doing enough and using the "doing the unseen work" as a mask....

Journalists think Joseph let slip that Te'o might not be starter in the first Test because he spoke about him being a great contributor in the future.

Not sure whether that's the conclusion to draw but I wouldn't be unhappy if he missed out for now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:....
I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

I think that is always the downside of working while wearing a cloak of invisibility. Nobody can see you doing it.

Or are you just not doing enough and using the "doing the unseen work" as a mask....

Absolutely, but this is Robshaw we are talking about. And as we know the specialist high tech surveillance gear the stats people use show that he has in fact been everywhere at the same time

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:....
I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

I think that is always the downside of working while wearing a cloak of invisibility. Nobody can see you doing it.

Or are you just not doing enough and using the "doing the unseen work" as a mask....

Its the easy get out of jail card really isn't it. How can you prove it, can you can disprove it.....

I think he's a good player, I think England have better excluding a bit of experience which he provides mind (although to be frank his experience is a little negative and could as well bring them down as it helps them out in the tough times).

The backrow is a lot about a balance of the 3. You have to have options that covers all bases. The team on paper look like they would be superior with him off the field at the moment (in my opinion).

SL loved him because he showed commitment, he was a fearless tackler of the 1st phase and never ducked a challenge. However commitment and heart is sometimes not enough.

What would your back row be. Vunipola made it past poor club player yet?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would your back row be. Vunipola made it past poor club player yet?

Apparently Vunipola is too fat

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would your back row be. Vunipola made it past poor club player yet?

Still think he needs to shift a lot of weight certainly. For me that puts a lot of questions on his professionalism. Never doubted his potential nor skills ajnd yes he has risen in my opinion but I still am not a fan to be truthful.

I like a tall blindside and Itoje fits the bill well. It also gives England very good options come the lineout and its becoming increasingly more important in the game. No other 8 on tour right? I mean I've always preferred Morgan to Vunipola myself but he is injured right???

7 I have little idea. Haskell, Clifford, Harrison, Robshaw? Clifford looked ok albeit at 8. Harrison I think looks like he will grow into that role in the long term. Maybe Clifford is the best bet at the moment. I'd say Clifford, Harrison, Haskell, Robshaw for the 7 jersey in that order.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would your back row be. Vunipola made it past poor club player yet?

Apparently Vunipola is too fat

I stand by that.

fa0019 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would your back row be. Vunipola made it past poor club player yet?

Apparently Vunipola is too fat

I stand by that.

If he was a kiwi or a saffa he'd be told to come back when he's shifted that puppy fat.  Lots of PI players in the NZ and AUS teams, few are as rotund as Vunipola (Skelton is bigger but AUS have the same questions thrown towards him... much of it in the media too).

Clifford fa. No Morgan isn't injured as far as I know at present. Just not picked.

But yeah I'd go with similar though probably start Robshaw and move Itoje to 6 later in the game. Vunipola fast becoming the best 8 in the game. Will be interesting to see him in the next 6 months.

Rugby Fan wrote:Journalists think Joseph let slip that Te'o might not be starter in the first Test because he spoke about him being a great contributor in the future.

Not sure whether that's the conclusion to draw but I wouldn't be unhappy if he missed out for now.

So Farrell, Burrell, Joseph by the sounds of it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clifford fa. No Morgan isn't injured as far as I know at present. Just not picked.

But yeah I'd go with similar though probably start Robshaw and move Itoje to 6 later in the game. Vunipola fast becoming the best 8 in the game. Will be interesting to see him in the next 6 months.

I recall zinny during the 6Ns didn't even rank him better than his 6N counterparts as in Parisse, Picamoles, Faletau & Heaslip.

Yeah I remember when Pele rated El Haj Diouf as a better (living) player than Dennis Law.

however I imagine we don't want to go down this route again....

England guys love him, I get that. Some of us aren't convinced for whatever reason (perhaps it is just non-important aesthetics) etc.

More than just England guys Fa.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Journalists think Joseph let slip that Te'o might not be starter in the first Test because he spoke about him being a great contributor in the future.

Not sure whether that's the conclusion to draw but I wouldn't be unhappy if he missed out for now.

So Farrell, Burrell, Joseph by the sounds of it.

I still have a sneaky feeling we will start with the 6Ns midfield.

England are going to bowl them out apparently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36478019

Would be fine by me that LT. Slade on the bench.

Its nice to see him trying to get the aggression back into the side...but surely this should be kept in camp.

The Aussies will be laughing.

LT,
I have a feeling for the 6n midfield aswell.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Journalists think Joseph let slip that Te'o might not be starter in the first Test because he spoke about him being a great contributor in the future.

Not sure whether that's the conclusion to draw but I wouldn't be unhappy if he missed out for now.

So Farrell, Burrell, Joseph by the sounds of it.

I still have a sneaky feeling we will start with the 6Ns midfield.

Now that would get the Aussies laughing....

If this happens this would be my reaction :

What's your preferred team then beshocked?

Personally I'd be going:Mullan Hartley Cole
Kruis Itoje
robshaw Clifford
Vunipola
Youngs Farrell
Nowell Slade Joseph Watson Brown

Vunipola George Hill
Launchbury Haskell Care Ford Yarde (and I haven't double checked so hoping all of those are still in the squad!).

*sigh

I know this is old stuff but...

When Fatty Vunipola 1st played for England he'd do a couple of smart things then spend the rest of the time getting his breath back. Funnily enough Morgan was pretty much the same, just smarter about when he did his good things and also surprisingly fast over short distances.

Since then Fatty Vunipola is still fat (slightly less but...). And he isn't very fast. But the big difference is he keeps on rumbling all game long. He has a great work rate, and has played every minute of the last 2 6N's (all the while we keep on getting the 'Billy still needs to prove fitness' headlines)

I would suspect that getting him to lose more weight might up his speed a bit but he'd lose more elsewhere. He is what he is, and generally you know exactly what he's going to do. Stopping it is another matter.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:....
I also share the view that it seems to have become fashionable to diminish what Robshaw brings. In the last-but-one Six Nations, Robshaw won more turnovers over the course of the tournament than any other player, a fact which generated precisely zero press attention because it didn't seem to fit with the received wisdom of what CR 'does'.

I think that is always the downside of working while wearing a cloak of invisibility. Nobody can see you doing it.

Or are you just not doing enough and using the "doing the unseen work" as a mask....

Absolutely, but this is Robshaw we are talking about. And as we know the specialist high tech surveillance gear the stats people use show that he has in fact been everywhere at the same time

Lets not even start on Mako....he really is fat! To get to the top you need God given talent combined with a professional attitude to get the most out of it. Billy is slowly improving and appears to be ahead of Mako in this department. Plenty of room for improvement though.

And the other point on Itoje at 6 is that it gets Launchbury a starting spot and he can really make a difference. Fingers crossed for Sat.

lostinwales wrote:*sigh

I know this is old stuff but...

When Fatty Vunipola 1st played for England he'd do a couple of smart things then spend the rest of the time getting his breath back. Funnily enough Morgan was pretty much the same, just smarter about when he did his good things and also surprisingly fast over short distances.

Since then Fatty Vunipola is still fat (slightly less but...). And he isn't very fast. But the big difference is he keeps on rumbling all game long. He has a great work rate, and has played every minute of the last 2 6N's (all the while we keep on getting the 'Billy still needs to prove fitness' headlines)

I would suspect that getting him to lose more weight might up his speed a bit but he'd lose more elsewhere. He is what he is, and generally you know exactly what he's going to do. Stopping it is another matter.

I don't want Billy to be rapid. Clifford can bring that off the bench giving a different option if needed. Vunipola's power and ability to offload can suck in Pooper whilst still keeping the ball and that is exactly what we need early doors on Saturday. Vunipola at Pooper with the locks/Itoje/Haskell power-clearing, and happy to offload if it's on. Part 1 of the plan

Hope they sh1t themselves

lostinwales wrote:*sigh

I know this is old stuff but...

When Fatty Vunipola 1st played for England he'd do a couple of smart things then spend the rest of the time getting his breath back. Funnily enough Morgan was pretty much the same, just smarter about when he did his good things and also surprisingly fast over short distances.

Since then Fatty Vunipola is still fat (slightly less but...). And he isn't very fast. But the big difference is he keeps on rumbling all game long. He has a great work rate, and has played every minute of the last 2 6N's (all the while we keep on getting the 'Billy still needs to prove fitness' headlines)

I would suspect that getting him to lose more weight might up his speed a bit but he'd lose more elsewhere. He is what he is, and generally you know exactly what he's going to do. Stopping it is another matter.

The best props never have 6 packs though. Never have, never will. Its different for no.8 though

Dean Richards aside from the old Leicester up the jumper type amateur days you'll struggle to find another example of a overweight successful eightman.

Everyone is different but I don't buy the.. its genetics lark. Go to NZ and look for a PI player, a Tongan in NZ who is a AB backrow type yet isn't cut? They don't exist. They're athletes and they take their career seriously, very seriously.

He's a good player.... if he took his conditioning a little more seriously I think he could be an outstanding player.

I disagree, fa0019, we saw lightweight Billy last year and he was much worse at rugby.


Fat =/= unfit anyway, and Billy this season has looked pretty fit despite still being big. I'd much rather keep him that way.

Fatness has NO direct link to fitness as a cardiovascular concept. It does affect stamina in that you have to carry around more weight for longer times/furtehr distances, but that comes with the automatic increase in momentum from the increased weight

ChequeredJersey wrote:I disagree, fa0019, we saw lightweight Billy last year and he was much worse at rugby.


Fat =/= unfit anyway, and Billy this season has looked pretty fit despite still being big. I'd much rather keep him that way.

Fatness has NO direct link to fitness as a cardiovascular concept. It does affect stamina in that you have to carry around more weight for longer times/furtehr distances, but that comes with the automatic increase in momentum from the increased weight

I don't expect him to be like Haskell who is probably too big, too cut. You're dead right on stamina mind. Try carrying an extra 15kgs around for 80 mins. Its going to add up.

As someone who has run a half marathon at 85kg and at 100kg, I know!

This is the Vunipola who played every min od this years and last years 6Ns and only comes off when injured. Sometimes you just got to say I was wrong hes great.

And to be frank lets see how well those 'cut' NZ PI guys manage tackling Billy all day. They'll manage it for a while but I'd bet not many will manage to all game. And he will keep going all game.

This is what he does. I don't think there are many players like him and I am very happy he's playing for England.

From the normally reliable Torygraph. Ford and Nowell dropped. Robshaw to start at 6.

Owen Farrell is poised to start at fly-half for England for the first time since Eddie Jones took over as head coach in the first Test against Australia here on Saturday, Telegraph Sport understands.

Farrell, who last started at his club position for England in the defeat by Australia which knocked Stuart Lancaster’s side out of the World Cup at Twickenham last October, is to replace George Ford at No 10 when Jones names his starting XV on Thursday.

Ford, who was booed by sections of the Twickenham crowd after missing six kicks out of seven at goal during the victory over Wales last month, was ever-present at 10 during England’s Grand Slam campaign. However, Farrell’s outstanding form for Saracens at the business end of their Premiership and Champions Cup double appears to have swayed Jones.

Northampton’s Luther Burrell, who was controversially overlooked for the World Cup squad having lost out to Sam Burgess, is set to start at inside centre, the position Farrell played throughout the Grand Slam campaign.

Burrell, who made a try-scoring return to the international stage in the victory over Wales, has been preferred ahead of Ben Te’o, the Auckland-born former Australian rugby league player who only joined the squad after the end of Leinster’s season on May 28.

Eddie Jones - Owen Farrell and Marland Yarde to start against Australia as England coach Eddie Jones prepares to axe  George Ford and Jack Nowell

The other significant change from the side who completed England’s first Grand Slam since 2003 is the promotion of Harlequins wing Marland Yarde ahead of Exeter Chiefs’ Jack Nowell, another player who started every game of the Six Nations campaign.

Yarde, who played against Wales when the players involved in the Premiership final between Saracens and Exeter were not available, has not started in a full-strength side since the 36-13 defeat by New Zealand in the third Test in June 2014.

Nowell was outstanding for his club in Exeter’s Premiership semi-final victory against Wasps, but it appears that Jones has been impressed by Yarde’s physical prowess. Yarde was selected ahead of Saracens’s in-form Chris Ashton and Jones has urged the 24-year-old St Lucia-born player to become England’s “gangsta” wing.

Chris Robshaw, the former England captain, is also set to retain his place after Jones appeared to pull back from starting Saracens lock Maro Itoje at blind-side flanker, despite trying out the back-row combination in training this week.

Itoje will partner George Kruis in the second row, but it is almost certain that Itoje will switch to No 6 during the second half on Saturday when Joe Launchbury, the Wasps lock, is sprung from the bench.

Itoje was tried out on the blind-side flank during training on Monday but Jones has decided to stick with the huge experience of Robshaw.

.......for me that is very harsh on Nowell. Common sense re Farrell and Burrell starting and I like the idea of Itoje moving to 6 in the 2nd half to allow Launchbury on. Mind you I bet Robshaw now has a blinder and forces EJ to have a re-think.

hugehandoff wrote:From the normally reliable Torygraph. ....

Yarde was selected ahead of Saracens’s in-form Chris Ashton and Jones has urged the 24-year-old St Lucia-born player to become England’s “gangsta” wing..

Ermm WTF? What sort of language is that?

Based on the Wales game I can see the point of going for Yarde for 'physicality but Nowell just offers so much more overall